How to build 'The Ultimate Wealth'; Talking All Things Spirituality & Money | Delson Armstrong

Hi, Delson. Hi, Cleona. Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me about money and the teachings of the Buddha, and also other teachings about money that are wise. Just to introduce you, I came across your work through Guru Viking and his podcast, and you were introduced as a meditation virtuoso. Which means that you have extremely high attainments in meditation. For example, you've sat in a cave for seven days and gone through cessation, which is incredibly impressive. I can hardly sit for 20 minutes without feeling restless. You also conduct meditation retreats all over the world, you're open to interviews, you're open to teaching physical retreats all over the world, and you've written amazing books. One of the books which I recently read from you was A Mind Without Craving, which is available on Amazon and through your website, delsonarmstrong.info. Is there anything I've missed? I think that's pretty much it, that pretty much covers it. But just a little correction: it was six days, not seven days. Oh, oh, I'm less impressed now. Okay.

So what is it like to live without craving and aversion? I mean, when you go on social media and you get these little dopamine reels, does your mind act like our minds? What is that like? And do you ever impulse buy or impulse shop? I'm just curious. Yeah, that's a good question. So living a life where a mind without any kind of craving or aversion or restlessness or agitation is basically like living the best version of a kid's life. The reason I say that is because you're having fun all the time, and it's not dependent upon people or relationships or toys or computers and all these other gadgets and things like that. It's basically you're able to be content with whatever is going on in the moment, and you're just playing out your life without any expectations

without any resistance, without any kind of identification with, why is this happening to me, or why did they say that, these kinds of things. So that mind is really, really efficient in being joyful just for joy's sake, right? It's not like I'm out looking for something that will make me happy. Yeah, I do have social media. I do go on Facebook, I go on Instagram sometimes, but that's pretty much it. And if I am, it's because I just want to see how people are doing, what's going on, and I might post. I'm very bad at posting. I post like once

a month, or once every two weeks or something like that. It'll just be something that I saw, or something that's going on in my life that I think people might find interesting. But yeah, in terms of scrolling and these kinds of things, not a lot. Not a lot. I mean, there will be some things that people will show me, send me as a link. I'll be quite honest, the thing that really gets me, though, is baby videos on Instagram. Every time my mom and I have exchanges, my mom, my sister and I, on WhatsApp, the only thing you'll see is just baby videos that we keep constantly sending each other, and it keeps us uplifting, it keeps us happy. And why not, right? That's one of the most wholesome ways of spending your time. Impulse buying, not really. I do have an Amazon Prime account, thanks to some people, but I rarely ever use it. If I have

some need for toiletries or something, like my tea is over, I'll buy on Amazon. But most of the time there's no impulse buying. It's not like, oh, that looks cool, I really want that, or, oh, the latest M2 laptop is out, I better get that. No, that doesn't happen.

So I can live with very little, but I have a very generous lifestyle and a very wonderful lifestyle because of the people in my life, and people who decide to donate for the purposes of continuing my activities as a teacher. So if I need something, I just have to see if it's available amongst the community, and there's always going to be at least one or two people who are willing to contribute to that. But yeah, I don't do those kinds of things. It's not like I have an unlimited credit card so I could be like, yeah, I'm gonna buy the latest PlayStation and indulge in that all day long. Wow, that's wonderful to live life without stories, without expectations, without attachments, without making every

happening a label and an interpretation, and that's quite heavy. And you're right, children move very lightly through life. They're very innocent and just full of joy, and everything is, how can I make this fun and play? I'm just... okay, what is money to you? What is money? What is your definition of money? What is money to you? So the way I see money is that it is a representation of value. I actually recently came across this video by a person from the Sri Aurobindo Society, and his name is Shraddalu Ranade, and he talked about money, and he had a very interesting story. He's talking about, let's say, you have the world's richest person.

Let's say it's Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk or something. He uses Bill Gates as the example in that story, but basically he says, imagine that they go to a place like the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, off the coast of India, on vacation, and they go to this hotel. And while they're there, something happens with the connectivity of the network and the payment systems. So all they have on them is a credit card to pay with for the hotel bill. And the receptionist says, we cannot do anything, we need cash. But then let's say the system goes back online again, and they have their credit card, but something happens.

Something happens where everything is hacked. So now, on paper, they might seem like they're worth billions, but then on their account it's like zero, they're unable to pay. And so, yes, they could say, I could pay you on credit or whatever, but taking that story further, he says, what if, let's say, the hotel person says, you can't stay here anymore. So that guy walks out of the hotel, takes a walk, and decides he wants to go on a hike in the forest.

And as he's there, he sees this little stall, and he feels thirsty, and there's water over there, and the man says it's 10 rupees, since this is, and I'm a Nicobar, so he takes his credit card and says, here it is. He says, I don't accept credit card, I accept cold hard cash. So he takes a 10 rupee note and pays him that, and he goes hiking in the forest. He goes deep in the forest and he meets with a tribe, and the chief of the tribe is there, and he exchanges greetings and everything. And then the chief of the tribe, he wants, there's an exchange going on, like he says, I really like that, I would really like to purchase that. So he said, okay, you can have it, and though he's ready to give him a hundred rupee note, the chief says, yeah, I want cash. This is a piece of paper, what does that mean to me? And so he asked, what is cash to you? He says

this, and he has a bag of a hundred seashells, right? So, and then he says, I'm sorry, but I don't have anything. This is the world's richest person on paper, according to the rest of the world, and he's unable to pay anything. So he says, if I could just take

refuge in your tribe and come as a guest, and the chief accepts, and he says, you are our guest, you're honored and you're respected, so we offer the best we can to you. And that person is well taken care of. So in that moment he didn't have to pay for anything, but he was able to enjoy whatever he needed to. So the idea is that money is just a representation. We think of money in different ways, and it depends on the generations, right? So money can be cash, money can be credit cards, money can be just what you see on your bank account when you log online. But to me, money represents the ability to exchange your joy for another person. So when we see money, we're working for money, let's say we're expending our energy for this money, whether it's in the form of transferring to our bank account or cash or whatever it is, Bitcoin. And what we're saying is we are giving this money, we are taking this money because we have

Expended our energy for the purposes of this money, and when we use this money in whatever we do, we are exchanging our energy for something that we seem to want. That's really what it is. It's a process of energy transference. And when people spend money, or when they pay their bills, or when they offer money to another person, I would suggest that they look at it in this way. You should look at that money in such a way that you're saying, this is my energy that I'm giving to you, with the hopes that that money represents something that will be of benefit for you, something that will bring you joy, whatever that might mean to that person.

So, money is just something we hold in our minds as value, but in essence it is an exchange of energy, and so money can also be understood as an exchange of karma as well. In that way, yes, that fits in really nicely with her, one of my favorite books, called Your Money or Your Life, by Vicki Robin and Joe Dominguez. In the book she says money is what you swap your life energy for. I really like what you said about it, it's like playing a joyful game with a value attached to money, however you see it represented, Bitcoin or cash or yeah. But you're playing a game of joy, but it can also be a game of violence, tragedy, separation. Anyway, we'll get on to that in the rest of the interview, because I'm curious to know your thoughts about that. So, your own relationship with money: how has it changed or shifted since your spiritual attainments?

yeah so you know the way i see money now is that it's just a means to basically help uh further this life energy that's going on so before it would have been the same way but there was like all of this attachment to it in the sense of if i don't get if i don't pay my bills on time i'll be in trouble and then i'll have to pay more or you know i have to make sure i have to pay the rent and all those things i will say though i've had a very interesting life even before all of these experiences which is i was living in san diego for about six years and all that time while i was living in san diego

I was in a situation, a work situation, which is very unique, I think, or very rare, which is I had everything paid for. I didn't have to pay for rent, I didn't have to pay for food, I didn't have to pay for bills. Everything was catered for me, and I was able to sort of live the life I wanted and work however I wanted. And sure, I would be paid in some money and things like that for whatever it is, but I never worried about money for those six years. Before, when I was working or doing something, I would... it was like I had to work really hard to get this money, and so money there was represented as, this is going to help fulfill whatever it is that I want. I want this or I want that, so money is a means to attain that.

Now when I see money, I see it as the same as I would see this bottle of water or this keyboard or whatever. It's just a thing. It's just whatever it is. And so the money matrix that I was in, which is to say, plugged into the matrix of, I have to make money and I have to be rich and I have to sustain my life and I have to have the best car and the biggest house and all of these things, that's all gone. And so now I feel like I'm really, really wealthy, not because of any kind of money or number of zeros in my bank account, it's because I have all of these people who really, really care for me, and I care about them, and who have a lot of respect for me, and I have a lot of respect for them. And I just have to ask, is it possible that we can do so and so? And if it is within their means, they're able to do it. And if it's not, then a group of people come together.

so i'm living a lifestyle now where people are really being generous to me and i'm offering my generosity in the form of whatever wisdom i might have whatever experiences i might have and so it's it's and i've said this before on on many of my talks especially when people talk about like how do you experience the world now when i do my retreats and when i do meditation teachings and things like that i'm not doing it for the money as soon as you do something for the money it becomes it becomes hard work it becomes there's a resistance there i'm not doing it for anything i'm just doing it because that's the only thing that this life energy feels like it can do at this point in time and so in exchange for that whatever people feel they have received in value they offer in form of donations and things like that so do i value money i value people and i value the relationships i have with people which translates to gratitude for whatever it is that they're offering so you know i have no concerns about money i have no worries about

I have no worries about supporting the people in my life. It's just everything is in free flow at this point, and that you're not doing your work for money. It's not an exchange, like a transactional exchange. There's a feeling of being supported by community and a real feeling of flow, feeling of being supported by life itself and life wanting this work to continue. Yeah, it's beautiful. If the Buddha was around now, what would he say? Do you think about how we spend, save, or invest money? Would he? Because in 2000 years, or however long the Buddha has not been around, in that particular form, life is so different.

Yes, yes, and it's interesting you bring that up, because he has commented on this. If you go in some of the suttas, the Buddha talks about things like how do you be a good business manager, how do you take care of your money and your finances. There's actually a sutta which is in one of the larger books, which is called the Digha Nikaya, and it's called the advice to a lay person. So the Buddha was not only teaching monks on meditation and things like that. There are some sparse textual evidences of him teaching to lay people for the purposes of having a very effective lay lifestyle, and he addresses the concept of money and how does one earn, spend, and save. And first and foremost he talks about the ability to have certain kinds of trades that do not harm

Let's say whatever it is that needs to be required for your household. 25% is for spending on something that you want, whether it's like going on vacation or you want a new TV or whatever it might be that you seem to want to possess. And then the last 25% you use towards savings. And I would interpret that as not only savings but probably even investing, because that's more active than saving. Savings is one thing, but putting your money to work in that way is another. So the Buddha has given these kinds of percentages, but I think he would also say that it would work according to an individual's lifestyle, so they would have different needs and requirements based on whether they are unmarried or married, and whether they're married and have children, or whatever their life situation is. So I think it's very smart for the Buddha. He would have probably said it's very smart to budget, it's very smart to save, and it's very smart to invest.

We both have Catholic backgrounds, and we both have a connection to India, and I really admire and love the teachings of Jesus. There was that story in the Bible about how Jesus, the only time that Jesus got angry, was when he saw moneylenders in the temple. And I've heard of this koan, which is very intriguing to me. It's a Christian koan: was Jesus an activist or a pacifist when he overthrew the tables of the moneylenders? Because Jesus is known to be a non-violent, peace-loving pacifist. Were some of his teachings on money misunderstood? The rich man cannot pass through the eye of the needle, or like that. There were certain teachings of his, and what do you think? Well, sorry, it's a very big question. What do you think were his most important teachings on money? Okay, yeah, that's a pretty big question.

First of all, I think, when it comes to the event in his life where he basically threw the moneylenders out of the temple and he saw what was going on, I think it was a message for people to understand that you cannot take advantage of people in the spiritual life, especially financially.

I think that's the main takeaway here, which is to say that the reason I think he got most upset was because people, the moneylenders and the people who are exchanging money, were doing it at an unfair value. At least that's my understanding of it. And so they were taking advantage of people, because they could only pay in shekels at the time at the temple for their rituals and sacrifices and things like that. But I think, with the lifestyle of Jesus, and you see his entire life, he went away from that whole thing completely as well, which is that whole ritualistic aspect. So he lived the life of a nomad, so to speak, a nomadic teacher, whose greatest teaching is really forgiveness, forgiveness and compassion. And that's why he always talks about, in his discourses and his sermons, that love your neighbor as you love yourself, and forgive them. So he actively followed that.

I don't think it was necessarily non-violent, because the intention was not to harm anyone particularly, even though it did harm the moneylenders, because they were obviously, you know, out of the temple. But the idea was: get your money in a way that doesn't take advantage of people, that doesn't cheat people, in which you have to lie and steal from them. And so that's my takeaway from that. And in terms of his teachings on money, he did talk about that. He said, you know, it is difficult for a rich man to get into heaven than it is for a man, for a camel, to go through the eye of a needle. And you think about it, you know, Jesus always talked about going into heaven, the kingdom of heaven. There are many ways of interpreting that, but I think when we talk about the kingdom of heaven, we're really talking about peace of mind and having a mind that is free of discontentment.

So a person with a lot of resources and money, what is the first thing that they'll do? They will try to protect that, and they will always think of ways of how I can protect that. And you have things like this Forbes list: oh, that person is now richer than I am, so now I need to compete with them. So their mind is always occupied with how to make more money, or how do I keep the money that I already have as best as I can? The second part, there's nothing much wrong with that, because you want to have financial stability, but it occupies your mind all the time, and that's really why it's difficult for such a person to have peace of mind.

And so that's why I really resonate with that idea, that the richest person is the one who is the most content. And yet we chase money, and we think more money would bring us more of what we really want, but it can be like an endless grasping game, because it's never enough, because all ones keep changing depending on the company we keep and the neighborhood we live in. And yeah, that's right. I mean, there's so many examples of that, right? Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, I just got an iPad, and it's the greatest iPad, and next year Apple releases another iPad. It's like, oh, now I want that iPad. Or I see my friend has this particular car, and so I want that car or a better version of that car. And so that is the mind that has craving. And that's why it's difficult. You could be the richest person in the world, but what happens if you notice that, you know, you see people who are very wealthy, even again going back to the Bible, like Solomon being

a king and one of the wealthiest people in the world was also one of the wisest. So you see that now also in modern day, where people who are very wealthy, if they're not idling away their time on really huge ego projects and things like that, are actually on their way to spirituality. They're always looking for how can I have peace of mind, and they feel like utilizing their money can be helpful in that regard. And to me, I think we should see, and it suggests, that peace of mind is the ultimate wealth, you know, the ability to just be at peace with ourselves, in our emotions, in our thoughts, and in our relationships. And if you want to find out more about getting peace of mind, here's a little plug for you, Delson: I would sign up to one of Delson's meditation retreats, because I found it very beneficial.

Um, and Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation, Damasukha. They have lots of online retreats for people who cannot get to physical retreats. But anyway, there are many methods to find contentment and peace of mind, and this is obviously one that is a clear pathway. Could you share more about allowing money flow? Is it okay to enjoy and derive pleasure from money and what it brings? I asked this because I remember my first Vipassana retreat. I asked a question to the teacher during the question time, one to one. I was so confused, because I said I wanted to have a second helping of the dessert. Like, is that okay to want that? And he laughed.

I got a little bit confused about what, you know, what exactly is it like? Well, how much is it okay to want? And what can I want? And what is craving, you know? And because I want pleasure in my life, I don't want everything to be dry. And, you know, yes. Now, you know, the thing about money flow. So I have noticed in my own life, even before doing any kind of practice

And in the lives of other people who follow this principle, is that if you want more money, or you want that easy flow of money, you have to be generous. And it's not just being generous with your money. So I'm not saying you need to give 10 away to charity or things like that, although that is a representation of your generosity. You're saying that I want this energy to go there, where I can do the best good for whatever that purpose is. But generosity in terms of helping people, maybe volunteering, as easy as being generous with your smile and your compassion and your joy and happiness and things like that. Because there is a concept in ancient India about the flow of wealth, and one of the deified representations of wealth there is what's known as the goddess Lakshmi. So the goddess Lakshmi represents abundance, prosperity, wealth, happiness and joy, however that means to you, because back in ancient India the sign of wealth was having a lot of cattle, having a lot of horses

And sheep and things like that. You know, more grains and abundance of fruits and vegetables. Nowadays it might be a little bit different, but it represents the same thing, which is the flow of resources. And the idea about Lakshmi is that in ancient India, this Lakshmi, which represents this energy of wealth and prosperity, flows both ways, which is to say that if you do acquire a lot of money, if it becomes stagnant where you don't spend that money or you don't allow that money to flow, then Lakshmi will stop, the energy of that money flow will stop.

But in order for you to start that flow of money, what you need first and foremost is emotional and mental stability. So unless you have the foundational aspect of being generous, being happy within yourself, having good relationships where there is peace in the household, where there's general well-being in the household, Lakshmi cannot flow. So, you know, Lakshmi flows through the process of the fact that it sees that these beings are happy, and so that's the place it will flow, where there is emotional but also physical cleanliness, where people are doing well in their day-to-day lives with their relationships. Their Lakshmi will flow. So this might be a principle that people can apply and see in their own lives. Fine, that maybe they want more money, but if they want more money first and foremost, you have to see how much you can give before you can get.

So start the flow of money by giving, not only of your own money and whatever that means for you, but of your own time and energy and happiness and joy. And as that happens, you're going to notice that you find yourself in situations where you have the opportunities to get more resources, get more money. So the basis, I believe, and it is talked about in the suttas as well by the Buddha, the basis of building your wealth is relationships. You know, I mean, in modern day terminology people talk about it in the form of networking, but I'm talking about something even deeper here, which is establishing genuine friendships and business partnerships where there is an understanding of trust and an exchange of kindness, because this happens a lot in Asian cultures: before you talk about business, you get to know the person first and foremost. You get to know who they are as a person. You break bread with them and you share a meal with them, and by doing so you get to see if you're on the same wavelength.

So this is important in terms of the money flow as well. What kind of relationships are you having with your employees, or your employer, or with your business partners, or whatever it might be? And if there is any kind of stagnancy, if there's any kind of rut in that whole process, you need to address that, and maybe you require forgiveness practice, maybe you require some loving kindness to get that flow going. And when that happens, you're going to notice that you're going to have more opportunities, very easily, more opportunities. Now, in terms of spending money, is there anything wrong with enjoying your money? No, not at all. In fact, the Buddha had talked about it for lay people. He says that you will earn money by your own actions, and you deserve to enjoy the fruits of your wealth, the fruits of your earnings. So definitely

If you want to go for that second helping of chocolate cake, go for it. If you want to buy whatever it is that you want to buy, go for it, but within the understanding of why or how it is you're doing whatever it is you're doing. In other words, you mentioned craving. What is craving? Craving is this dissatisfaction with whatever is going on in the present moment. So if there's something you want to enjoy, let's say you want to take a vacation, there's a utility to it. If there's some kind of technology that you require, you need to get the latest editing software or you need to buy another television for whatever it is, there's a utility value to it. So don't just go grasping at it immediately just because you see it and it creates the sparkle in your eyes and it creates this craving. See it in terms of what kind of utility value does it have to me, and that utility value could be as simple as, if we're going on

vacation, it's an opportunity for me to connect with my friends and family. It's an opportunity for me to make new memories with them and build more stronger relationships. If it's getting a television, that's another thing. It's a way for me to relax at the end of the day and just watch a show with my friends and family. So look at the utility of why it is that you want, rather than saying I have to have it out of creating. Yeah.

Connect with the underlying needs. Yeah. Your motivation. Why? And then it's very clear. We have a lot of lack thinking around time, around money. In fact, I once heard a Buddhist teacher say that when you say you're being busy, it's like a disguise, a pose, you know, like, Oh, I'm so important. I'm busy. And even on YouTube, there's so much content about productivity, how I made so many hours, how I could do so much work in such less time and use these AI tools. And it seems like there's a big obsession with doing, doing, doing more, and we're missing the balance of being, and it's creating this enhanced restlessness, because we have, I don't know, we're trying to squeeze a lot into a short amount of time. And then there are some people who have anxiety because they can't, you know, people have ADHD.

And it's really like quite a high percentage of people with mental health issues as well. And it's creating a lot of competition. I'm not saying everybody, but maybe people who are most susceptible. And I was wondering what you have to say about the scarcity mentality. You know, how could we become more relaxed with time in particular? Yeah, yeah. I mean, to that point, you were talking about earlier about that. I think this was by one of these Zen masters who talked about it. He said something like, to the effect of, if you have time, meditate for one hour, but if you're very busy and you don't have time, meditate for two hours. And the reason or the rationale behind that is the only way you can become more productive is if you have a calm mind.

And I've told this to people in my retreats as well, which is, there's this idea that I don't have enough time to do something, or I have to get something done in a certain amount of time. But the more the mind focuses on that, the more the mind focuses on, I have to do this, I have to get this done, it has to be done this way, what that does is it creates this mental hectic nature, which matches with what you think is the hectic reality. But if you slow things down in your mind, and if you start to do things one thing at a time, which is what the nature of the mind is, it can only do one thing at a time.

It's very efficient, very effective, very fast in doing it, so it looks like it's doing multiple things at the same time, but really it's always doing one thing at a time. And what you will find, the irony is, if you slow down and just focus on one thing at a time, you will actually get more things done, rather than I have to do it this way and so on and so forth.

So the scarcity mentality of I don't have enough time, or I don't have enough energy, or I don't have enough money, we have to understand first of all that scarcity mentality. So you have to change your thinking, you have to change your mindset, you have to change the way you view things, and then that will reflect in how you motivate yourself. Because if you say that I have certain things to be done, and you categorize the things that you have to be done by the amount of priority that it's required, and let's say there is some kind of time factor to it, that there is a deadline to it, obviously you prioritize and you do whatever it is that needs to be done. But if you are doing whatever needs to be done in a way that is like go go go, it will be less enjoyable first and foremost. So coming back to what I've always talked about, which is do things that you can find enjoyable, and if it's not enjoyable, try to bring joy into it. And one of the best ways to bring joy

into it is to actually first and foremost become mindful. Not mindful of how much time you have, not mindful of what needs to be done and what is the goal and outcome, but mindful in just your mind and your body and your ability to just take one step at a time. And then predictive productivity and all of these things will fall into place. Yes, I've seen people have this whole idea that they want to build an empire, and they have all of these hustles, the side hustle and all of these things that are going on. Nothing wrong with it. If you want more money, more power to you, but there is a more efficient way of doing it, and it is through first and foremost having a mind that is very clear. So I always say to my students and practitioners, always start your day with some kind of meditation.

Minimum half an hour, maybe an hour if you can manage it, but always start your day with that, because in the same way that we always have to do the same routine of getting ready for work or getting ready for the day, we have a shower, we brush our teeth, we get ourselves clean and everything, we forget about our minds, we forget about our emotions. And if our mindset isn't primed for the day, which is first and foremost having a collected mind, then everything will be helter skelter, and we will feel like we are not having enough time, we will feel like we're not having enough energy, we will feel like the world is becoming more overwhelming. So if you just start to become more present, bring awareness and attention and interest in whatever it is you're doing in that moment, then those moments will become spacious, because the moment, I mean, the moment seems

very instantaneous to us whenever we're very fast in our thinking and in our mind, but the moments become more prolonged, or seem to become more prolonged, the moment our mind slows down and starts to take things one thing at a time. Yeah, that's really good advice. And to protect against the attention economy, just taking those 30 minutes in the day. The day flows differently. I've noticed that when I speak to my friends who meditate, they say, if I don't meditate in the morning, my day is worse. Yeah. And it's true.

We can only really do one thing at a time, but it's almost like while we're doing that one thing, we've got nine things in the backlog of our brain that's sort of taking up like CPU power, you know, and it's, it's like a fractured brain doing the work and when you feel more spacious, you can get things done with the, like even writing an email when you're feeling anxious, I feel like the energy transmits to the other person or when you're feeling frustrated, just taking that few moments to just collect yourself and collect your mind um i'm interested in your thoughts about morality with money because it is a little confusing since i'm a spiritual seeker since i'm not i've not yet attained nibbana i put myself in that category and i watch videos and some videos are um you know there's no judgment implied here at all but it's just confusing because some speakers say uh that it's absolutely meaningless and purposeless this is all a dream you know so it doesn't really matter what happens and yeah that's a little confusing and also

We have corporations that dump toxins into rivers and make money. Should we turn a blind eye to these things? I don't think so, because anything that's harming life and harming other beings, that activates an element of care, and I think that's important. But I'm keen to hear your views. So first and foremost, with this idea that there is no meaning and it's meaningless, and it doesn't really matter what we do or don't do or how things turn out, I think the Buddha would have something else to say about that, because he has addressed this in terms of his understanding of what is right view and what is wrong view. One of the types of wrong views that he talks about is this sort of moral nihilism, this sort of pessimism about the world. Now, he does talk about, in the absolute sense of it, there is suffering in the world that is inescapable, whatever you do, that is inescapable, even as somebody who might be fully

Awakened, because you're still subject to physical pain and other things that happen around you, and the loss of people around you, and so on. So there can be a tendency for someone looking at that and saying there's no meaning in the world. And I'm on the flip side of that, somebody who has this sort of non-dualistic idea of the world, where it's all one thing. So at the end of the day it doesn't matter what it is we do, good, bad or indifferent.

But the reality is that we do live in a relative world. There are no absolutes here, except for the fact that in the relative world we are subject to suffering, and we are subject to karma. Anybody who doesn't believe in karma should just look at what would happen if you spoke unkindly to another person. How would they usually react? If you harmed another person, how would they usually react? They would usually backlash and say the same thing, or something more harmful, or act in a way that's more harmful to you. And so the Buddha did present these five habits, moral habits, ethical habits, which we call the five precepts.

And they are all about, first and foremost, maintaining peace of mind, maintaining a mind that is calm and collected, because it really is all about the golden rule, the golden principle of do unto others as you would want them to do to you. So when we talk about the precepts, the first precept is do no harm to others, do not harm or kill other living beings. The second is don't take what isn't given to you, don't steal. The third is don't cheat, sexual misconduct. The fourth is don't lie.

And the fifth is don't indulge in intoxicants. Now, at the outset of that, that's all well and good, because it affects your mind a certain way, and so there is something to be said about it. But in terms of an exchange, a social exchange, it also means something, because you wouldn't want somebody to harm you physically or emotionally or verbally. You wouldn't want someone to take things without asking for them, or without you wanting to give it to them. You wouldn't want people to cheat on you. You wouldn't want people to lie to you. You wouldn't want people to become boisterous in their indulgence of intoxicants and then cause harm to you one way or the other. So there is something to be said about it. It does matter. Ethics have a big, big play, no matter how absolute that sounds. But there is something to be said about ethics and morality. There is something to be said about karma, because all our actions, with our intentions, have consequences.

Everything that we do has a consequence when there is an intention behind it, which leads me to answering your second part, which is that yes, I think there is a moral obligation for people to understand how it is that they invest their money, and how to deal with corporations and organizations that effectively harm our planet, because this is the planet we live on. It's the only one we have. This is the environment we live on, and this is the only environment we have. Now, some people will take further actions, and that's fine with them. They want to become environmentalists.

They want to become activists and all of these things, and that's fine if that's how they want to do it. We also have to understand that if we have money, we also have the choice and the intention with that money. So if we knowingly invest in some company that we know is harming the planet, is causing situations and problems for other beings, then we better stop engaging in those kinds of things. But it's a very tricky thing. It's a very, very, very tricky thing to navigate. And the reason I say that is because we purchase electronics, and those electronics run on certain batteries that require certain elements, and these elements are extracted from mines by people who work very, very long hours and are really living like a slavish lifestyle. Because of that, I mean, they are being taken advantage of. So what do you do in those situations? How do you deal with those situations? And that's why we have to understand, from the Buddhist perspective, samsara is that way.

There's so much interconnection there. Whatever you can do within your power to be able to make a choice with your spending power, absolutely do that. If you don't want to contribute to this particular organization that deals in destroying the planet, that deals in chemicals that harm us and our future generations, then absolutely do that. Now, I don't think it's fair to judge anyone to say that they continue to invest in that company, because maybe they don't know about it, and that's their choice, that's their intention. But coming back to samsara on a larger scale, we've come into the samsara from the Buddhist perspective because of karma, and because of things that we've done in, let's say, past lives and previous circumstances.

So our job is not to fix samsara. Nobody can truly fix the entire world completely. Our world right now, believe it or not, is in a much better place than it was a hundred years ago, is in a much better place than it was 50 years ago, and definitely in a much better place than it was 200 or 500 years ago. I mean, the amount of things that we have done in terms of our evolution as a society, in terms of medicines and healthcare, in terms of longevity and lifestyle changes, and nourishment and nutrition. I'm not saying it's all perfect, but yes, we have as a society and as humanity tried to make the world a better place, and we've made some progress there. But I believe we also have to realize that we can't do everything. Nature also will have to take a part in this process, and we are just a tiny small fragment

in the entire samsara, which is made up of so much more. So we have a moral obligation to do the best we can so that people and ourselves are not harmed in that process. Do what you can that makes you happy, as long as it doesn't get in the way of others' happiness. This is a principle that my father taught me and lived by, and so this is something that I also aspire to in whatever it is that I do and say. So that's the long of it, but the short of it is it's all about intention and how you choose to do what you do with your energy and with your money.

You're right. It's very complicated. Mining companies have a very bad track record for human rights violations. And there are some, you know, regulations and laws and things like that. But sometimes even when, you know, because as an investor, you can also engage with companies and say, could you, you know, incorporate these particular standards in your minds? We don't, we don't, we do not want to have children employed, for example, or we want these hours, whatever.

Sometimes the governments can be corrupt, and it's very, very complicated, and I really like your invitation to assume innocence and assume that they don't know, rather than judge, because I think then you don't take that morally superior position, which is also slightly oppositional and doesn't encourage people to think about creating harm. I think all our consumption does impact and cause some harm, but it's about trying to reduce that harm intentionally, especially if you know other ways, and you can be creative about it. But yeah. And talking about suffering and samsara, obviously we are both from India, and we've seen the poverty, and extreme poverty. It's very uncomfortable sometimes to see, and I often even as a child used to feel like guilty, or like sad, and uncontrollably sad.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about, because I've come across people who feel like they're well off, and they can't, and they feel terrible about that. They're not able to really live a life that is mentally peaceful. And I think the guilt and the shame are completely unnecessary, because what you could do instead is reroute that energy into thinking, is there anything I can do with my status, let's say in society, or my place in this world, where I might be better off

and I can use the resources that I have to be able to help those people in need, or those beings in need. So I think, but at the same time, it should not be motivated by guilt. It should not be motivated by any kind of idea that if I help this person, that's going to help make me feel like a better person. It should be more like, I see that I'm in a better position and I would like to share my resources with others so that they may be of benefit. So it shouldn't be done in such a way that this washes off the guilt. So how do you deal with that guilt? It's very easy, from my perspective of how I do meditation training, which is the forgiveness practice.

If people have some kind of guilt, if people have some kind of shame about where they are in relation to somebody else, then they need to work on that guilt internally and at an emotional level, and that is the use of the forgiveness practice that we teach as a way of letting go of those negative emotions. But that is the way of the world. I mean, I think that's a healthy way of approaching the world, that there will be some people who are better off and there will be some people who are not as better off, but we all have opportunities to share our resources, we all have opportunities to help others, we all have opportunities to make our world whatever that means for us in terms of maybe our closer network of people or a larger scope, to be better. I'm not saying that we are necessarily obligated to, but I'm saying that there are opportunities for us to do that. So I would say reroute those energies in those opportunities, and then address that guilt if it's still there, using meditation practice like forgiveness.

And do you have anything to say about the root causes of violence, like our systemic issues? I mean, this is a big question, but do you think it's because we just believe that we are separate, you know, we're separate beings, we're not, the feeling of community is a bit... yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, when we talk about violence, I think this violence stems from an anxiety, and that's an anxiety that's put onto us by this idea of

scarcity. Now we talked about energy scarcity and time scarcity, but we bring that on a larger scale, which is scarcity in terms of life scarcity. Like, I, you know, the idea is that I only have this one life to live, and so being that, that being the case, the intention is to try to take as much as I can, whatever means necessary. So however I can do that, and you know, the selfishness arises, the greed, the hatred, the delusion, the idea that we are somehow disconnected and separate arises whenever we take things and identify with them as this is me, this is mine, this is myself.

So this comes from a very deep, ingrained, systemic idea amongst society that, you know, I am an individual and whatever I do is for my individual benefit. But if we are able to let go of that and start to see that actually this body is not me, my emotions are not me, they're not mine, they're arising because of causes and conditions, and there is an interdependence going on there, there's an interconnectivity going on, whether we know it or not, whether we acknowledge that or not. The more we acknowledge it, the more we become aware of it, the less we take this body and the way we take ourselves seriously or personally. And so the more we see that we are not separate and there is interconnection and there is interdependence

that my life depends on others and other situations depend on my situation, and what I do has an effect on others and what they do has an effect on me, then naturally we start to become more wholesome, naturally we start to become more loving and kind and try to take care of the people around us, and even if that means in a larger circle. I think that's one way to address violence: is to realize that the world doesn't revolve around you, and secondly, that the world is made up of interconnectivities of various orders of beings.

So my last question to you, Delson, is about financial bypassing, and it's a very important question, because we hear sometimes, every now and then, a story breaks out about, like, a pastor who, again, you know, not really with the right intentions, is buying all the possible best brands and fleecing his congregation and making them pay lots of money and avoiding taxes, or Bhagwan Rajneesh. You know, there was that Netflix documentary about him, and he had so many roles.

Royces, and somehow it doesn't sit well with me, you know, how we do money in spiritual places is not always clean and transparent, and I was wondering if you could speak to that financial bypass? Yeah, this is a very good question, because this is something we definitely have to address among spiritual teachers. Now, there are different ways of making your livelihood, and when you are in a spiritual world, me being a Buddhist meditation teacher, for all intents and purposes, I live a life that's very much dependent upon others. So I take a lot of view of that, I take a lot of observation of that, and I'm well aware that, because my life depends on others' generosity,

I put things into perspective so that there isn't over-expenditure of things that I might need or I might want. And so this financial bypassing that happens, and you have used a really good example of Osho, the one Rajneesh, who had something like 99 Rolls-Royces, and so was that necessary? Was even one Rolls-Royce necessary? I know as far as he was concerned he said that they were all donated by his donors, but what did he do with it? How did he make use of it? Was it really practical?

As a spiritual teacher, as a meditation teacher, I never charge for my teachings. I never have a set fee or some kind of thing that says this is how much is required for you to enter retreat. The only thing people pay for, if it's a retreat outside of Damasuka or whatever it might be that I might be at, well, even Damasuka has its own expenses for its maintenance, so people will pay for that, but in terms of charging for teachings, I never do that. It's always donation based. So if people realise, if spiritual teachers realise, that if you are teaching based on donations, then you definitely have a responsibility to use those donations

in a way that further helps you teach, because that's really the main motive here, right? Is to teach, is to bring wisdom to the world, is to serve your students by your teachings and through your teachings. And so if that's the case, then do you really need that Rolex? Do you really need, you know, that Mercedes-Benz or Rolls-Royce or whatever it might be? And so the other part of that is financial openness. One of the things I really admire is an organisation out in the Netherlands, which is called, I think, the Meta Foundation, and the organisation that I work with, the Suttavada Foundation, tries to emulate that. What that is, is creating annual reports of what the donations were that came in and what they were spent on. So it will give a line-by-line, itemised kind of thing: this is how much went to the teacher, this is how much went towards the organisational structure, this is how much went to the facilities

and so on and so forth. So I think that's very important, that there is that level of transparency when it comes to the spiritual world. Now, people or teachers who are doing this for the money, and this is just the way I see it, so take it with a grain of salt, but anyone who is doing it for the money when it comes to a spiritual teaching, they're in the wrong business, because the whole point of spiritual teaching is to be free of the need to satisfy your senses using resources.

because satisfaction of the senses is how this world came to be, is how this suffering came to be. So if your intention to speak to teach spiritual teachings is to make money, then there is a disconnect, there is some kind of incongruency over there. You might as well find a job or build a business or something like that. So I think spiritual teachers, if they are doing that, maybe need to readdress how and what it is that they're doing. But to kind of review what I just said, and to simplify what I just said: number one, I think there has to be financial transparency among spiritual teachers and spiritual organisations, and that means that those who are donating understand that this is going 100 to for this or this is going 50 to this, 25 to that, or whatever it is that's going on. Second, spiritual teacher, being a teacher, there are people who look up to that teacher, so that teacher needs to have some level of sobriety in terms of how they spend their money, especially in terms of what they're

doing with that money for the purposes of the enjoyment of their own senses. And the third is spiritual teachers in general should probably understand that whatever money that they are receiving is a form of gratitude and generosity by the practitioners, by the students, and they should be respect and understanding of that, so that they realise that their life depends on others. That's the essence of all spiritual teachers, or ought to be. The Buddha, you know, Jesus, any great spiritual teacher that you look out into the past, their life was always dependent on others. They're dependent, it depended on how people were generous, and little by little their organisations, their structures grew, but as they grew they didn't become more hungry for money or more hungry for power. It was just that it grew so that it could grow at a pace that allows benefit for more and more people.

So if that money is utilised in a way so that maybe you can broadcast your teachings in larger spheres and in larger circles, then I feel like that would be a better use of money, rather than buying 99 Rolls-Royces or even being donated 99 Rolls-Royces. So ultimately the purpose of a spiritual teacher is to be an example through their own teachings and to understand that they are dependent upon the gratitude of others and the generosity of others. Thank you so much, Delson. This is very useful what you just said, and of all the questions that you've answered, I think were extremely enlightening and reassuring. I'm feeling very grateful and also very excited to be in a retreat with you in September in the UK, which, by the way, is fully booked, but yeah, you will have other retreats on your website.

Is there anything else you'd like to say or share as parting words? Or, yeah, I would just like to say thank you for having me on, and I'm really happy that I was able to do this. My only last takeaway message for people would be to really understand and weigh your options based on peace of mind. If there's something that brings you peace of mind, then do that. But if you are doing something in the pursuit of making more money but it doesn't bring you peace of mind, reassess that situation. That's a good

way to frame a decision. Yeah, that's a good option. That's a good... sorry, I can't add your words, but yeah, I like what you just said. Well, thank you so much, Delson. I could keep talking to you for hours, and maybe we should do a round two in a few years when I'm a bit more wiser and have caught up with some of your attainments. But I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. It is really going to help a lot of people. Thank you. Thank you.