Interview#5: Does Metta/Lovingkindness practice lead to Nibbana. What is Enlightenment?

I think one of the things that draws a lot of people to TWIM is that it's a way that's not often taught to go through jhana, where you're using the brahmaviharas as these sublime qualities of mind, starting with metta or loving-kindness. Could you unpack a little bit more about why that's so effective? Bhante, our teacher, has said it's actually seven times quicker for people to get into jhana this way than using the breath. Mm-hmm. Well, the simple answer is that it feels good. And whatever feels good, the mind gravitates towards.

So the brahmaviharas are sublime states. They are mental feeling and mental pleasures. So if it's a mental pleasant feeling, the mind will gravitate towards it. So what that means is, when somebody is attracted to sensual pleasures, the moment you start to introduce them to jhanas, which are higher states of good feelings, higher states of pleasant feelings, they start to gravitate towards that and stop seeking more and more of those sensual pleasures. Eventually they have a disinterest in those sensual pleasures. But coming to the understanding of the brahmaviharas, like loving-kindness or compassion or joy or equanimity, there is a sutta, or a series of suttas, which are known as the finger-snap suttas.

And they're found in the Book of Ones, in the Anguttara Nikaya. And I think it's in section 6, which is called Luminous, and it's suttas 53 to 55. And basically, it's different variations of saying the same thing, which is, if the mind has just cultivated a finger-snap length of loving-kindness, it is said to be not devoid of jhana. That's an interesting way of phrasing that, right? Not devoid of jhana. But really what we're talking about here is when you have loving-kindness, the mind is naturally quite uplifted.

And when the mind is naturally quite uplifted, it can become collected. Because there is the experience of happiness, there is the experience of joy, there is the experience of tranquility, and it leads to collectedness. So it inclines the mind towards a jhanic state. That's why it's much easier. And because it feels good, the mind will gravitate towards it and be able to collect around it much easier than just looking at the breath or observing or tranquilizing when it comes with the breathing practice. Because there's no good feeling that is quickly generated from just observing the breath.

There is a good feeling that arises just by observing loving-kindness or generating loving-kindness, which then gives rise to the first jhana. And there is another sutta called the Metta Sahagata Sutta. And what this says is loving-kindness is present in the first four jhanas. And then when you have the experience of infinite space, it changes to compassion. Then when you have the experience of infinite consciousness, it changes to joy. And then when you have the experience of nothingness, it changes to equanimity.

This is regardless of whether you're using the breath, or this is only if you're using metta as your object to begin with? When you're using metta as your object to begin with, you will notice this. So what the Buddha is saying there is, accompanied by these experiences of the jhanas, there will be these brahmaviharas when you start off with loving-kindness, which gives rise to the first, second, third, and fourth jhanas. I didn't realize that he talks about using metta to get into jhana. Yes. What was that sutta again? Metta Sahagata Sutta. Okay.

And yeah, I guess from the science perspective, there's also this feedback loop of good feeling. The reward system has been shown to light up during metta loving-kindness practice, so if you're activating the reward system, your mind's going to want to pay more attention, and then the more attention you pay, the better it feels, and so forth. Yes, that's right, and I will just say that if you first time, first thing in the morning, if you do compassionate meditation, if you radiate compassion, that's better than a cup of coffee. It really re-energizes the body and the mind. Because what's happening is you're activating your gamma brain states, which causes the mind to be more alert and causes it to be able to absorb information much quicker.

I'm forgetting, what was the question I was supposed to ask? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these states sound great and all, but I know that it's not easy for everyone to bring up that feeling, because we're not just talking about a thought of kindness, we're talking about an actual feeling in the body and mind that's uplifted. So yeah, do you have any advice for people to bring that up, or how do you usually deal with that challenge? Smile more, because the smiling helps the mind become uplifted, and when the mind is uplifted it's naturally collected. So it's easier to bring up the feeling of loving-kindness, whether it's visualizing any kind of wholesome image, like holding a baby or a puppy or a kitten in your hand, or even the verbalization, which is infused by that joy that you experience from the smile, and then the feeling is ignited from there.

Sometimes what happens is the feeling won't come up because the mind is overly distracted by other things. It might concern itself with something somebody said earlier in the day, or there's a lot of distractions at home and things like that. So a retreat setting would be really ideal, but if you're able to spend a weekend where you can just be secluded and start with your practice, then you'll find it's easier to generate loving-kindness because of the less distractions than it is when you're just there in day-to-day life. But then sometimes there are also blockages, where a person might be able to experience loving-kindness and then it just spurts out, it just fizzles out. And the reason is because there might be something that the mind is unable to let go of, and for those kinds of

conditions forgiveness practice is recommended, which then deals with actually letting go of those blockages. And more often than not, pretty much 100 percent of the time, when people have that forgiveness practice they come back to the loving-kindness and they immediately are able to bring that up, and they are immediately able to bring up that feeling of joy and collectedness. Right? Yeah. And I guess it's often said you need loving-kindness for yourself before you can feel it for others. Yes, yes. So the idea is, in the beginning, you have loving-kindness towards yourself for the first 10 minutes

and then you're able to send it out. You're able to either radiate it or send it out in whatever way you want to imagine it or think about it or feel about it to your spiritual friend. So it's more than just thinking about loving-kindness, because thinking about loving-kindness would mean you're verbalizing it and just saying, may I be happy, or when you're thinking about your spiritual friend, may you be happy, and so on. But here, this is really feeling it. And how do you know you're feeling loving-kindness? It's when the mind is uplifted. When the mind feels kindness towards itself, that means there's a level of self-acceptance.

That's why forgiveness is recommended, because people are either trying too hard or judging themselves too hard, whether it's internally, implicitly, or much more explicitly. Regardless, in that sense of trying too hard and not having self-acceptance, there won't be any loving-kindness. So total self-acceptance leads to greater amounts of loving-kindness towards yourself, which then leads to loving-kindness towards your spiritual friend and others, and ultimately you're able to radiate indiscriminately in all directions.

I think there are three different strategies you give in one of your guided meditations for bringing up the feeling. There's gratitude. There's a feeling towards a friend, a spiritual friend, or someone who naturally makes you feel loving-kindness. And the third was the phrase, may I be happy, may I be free from suffering. Yeah. So anything can be used. In terms of, if you want to use gratitude and think about your family, or think about the things that you have, in terms of the good qualities that you possess, that's why, before you even do any kind of practice, the sila is the foundation, the precepts are the foundation, and generosity also is the foundation.

because anytime you are generous, anytime you are kind to others, anytime you just smile to another person, it uplifts you. And every time you're generous, and every time you're kind, and every time you're loving, you go back to those experiences, and it naturally uplifts the mind, and you're already loving and kind in that moment. So being more generous gives you the ability to have more of these experiences, because you're able to look back and say, wow, that was wonderful. And then you're able to be kind to yourself, be able to accept yourself, so to speak, and be able to be more loving towards yourself, which then generates loving and kind thoughts towards others and loving and kind feelings towards others.

It's incredible. And it's a win-win, because everyone benefits. You're benefiting by feeling an uplifted mind. Everyone else is happier around you. And I'm just surprised that more meditation teachings aren't using this to go through jhana and gain insight, but also just as a tool. Well, that's the thing about loving-kindness. It's sometimes seen in circles as an after-practice. Like, let's just do 10 minutes of it. Yeah, like a complimentary side thing. But if that was the case, then why would the Buddha mention it?

He's mentioned it many times, where he talks about that bhikkhu who sits for meditation and pervades one quarter, and the second quarter, and the third quarter, above, below, and in all directions, imbuing those directions with loving-kindness, or imbuing them with compassion, or imbuing them with joy, or imbuing them with equanimity. And they do lead to the experience of Nibbana. One leads to the other. That's why when you go back to the Metta Sahagata Sutta, you will see that the Buddha says, yes, you have loving-kindness to the extent of the fourth jhana. Then the loving-kindness changes to compassion. Then that compassion changes to joy. Then that joy changes to equanimity. And that equanimity gives rise to the quiet mind, and ultimately leads to cessation, which ultimately leads to the experience of Nibbana.

This is the step-by-step approach, which is not only effective, but feels good from the beginning, in the middle, and in the end. And that's what he promised. Good in the beginning, middle, and end. There you go. Delson, what is the goal of this whole project of meditation? People talk about enlightenment, awakening. What do you see as really the objective? Yeah.

Enlightenment, or awakening, or an attainment, whatever it might be, different people have different ideas about what this could mean. The idea is that enlightenment means you have become one with the universe or all-pervading consciousness, and all of these other ideas, or you have certain kinds of psychic faculties and psychic powers. You can walk through the wall and walk on water, or dig through the earth, and all the other things that go with it, or you can read other people's minds and those kinds of things. But when we understand awakening, that's really the word to use: awakening. Enlightenment really means lighting up the mind. It means shedding light on how the mind is working, and shedding light on how the mind processes information and how it reacts and responds and things like that. But the word awakening, which comes from the word bodhi, another word for it is panya, which is insight or wisdom.

But all of these are synonymous with a certain level of understanding. We have the four attainments, which are the four levels of awakening, and we have an understanding of stream entry. That is one level of awakening, where you have an intellectual understanding that things are impersonal. You no longer have doubt about the Eightfold Path and how this whole process works, and you let go and have no longer any beliefs or clinging to any beliefs of the idea that rites and rituals will take you to the experience of Nibbana. So the whole goal of the meditation practice is to experience Nibbana. And later on, as we understand the ten-fetter model, we go through that process of destroying the first three fetters, and then the Sakadagami, the once-returner, weakens the next two fetters, which are the fetter of sensual craving and the fetter of aversion.

The Anagami, the non-returner, destroys the sensual craving and destroys the fetter of aversion. Then the Arahant destroys the five higher fetters, and that's quite the leap, because what you're destroying there is restlessness, the craving for form realms, the craving for formless realms, the conceit and ignorance. So enlightenment or awakening is awakening to certain truths of reality, awakening to the understanding that this is an impersonal process, awakening to the understanding that craving leads to suffering, awakening to the understanding that the ignorance of this process leads to suffering. So awakening, the full awakening of the arahat, is essentially understanding the four noble truths, being able to recognize when suffering has arisen in the mind, abandoning the cause of that suffering, which is the craving, and experiencing the cessation of suffering, which is the nirodha, and cultivating the way to that by practicing and developing and ultimately perfecting.

The Eightfold Path. When that happens you have destroyed ignorance, because you have ultimately understood the four noble truths. So in the understanding of the Dhamma, awakening or enlightenment or the goal is to come to this experience of Nibbana, which leads you to full understanding of dependent origination and therefore leads you to full and complete and perfect understanding of the four noble truths.

So it's not about developing psychic faculties, and it's not about attaining some kind of oneness with the universe and things like that, because these are all within conditioned reality. The goal is to get to the unconditioned. The goal is, through the process of utilizing the path and understanding how meditation works, to decondition the mind: decondition the mind of craving, decondition it of conceit, decondition it of ignorance, so that you come to the unconditioned, to the experience of Nibbana, and experience a greater joy and relief.

And so, arahats are known also as khina asavas, which means the destroyer of the taints. So it's not about developing the psychic faculties, although what is understood is there are these three psychic faculties or psychic powers that arise, which is the knowledge of past lives, the knowledge of karma and rebirth, through the knowledge of the arising and passing away of beings, and the knowledge of the destruction of the taints.

But the understanding here is, because you don't need the first two to be enlightened. You only need the destruction of the taints. And what are the destruction of the taints? They are the taint of sensual desire, the taint of sensual craving, the taint of desire for being, and the taint of ignorance. So when you're doing this process, when you destroy sensual craving and become an anagami, you have destroyed that clinging to sensual pleasures. You have destroyed the desire to be in a form realm or in a formless realm; you destroy that taint. And when you fully understand the four noble truths and are able to see the four noble truths in every moment as they arise and pass away through the links of dependent origination and things that arise and pass away, then you destroy ignorance.

When you destroy these three, then you are said to be fully enlightened or fully awakened. So you're also fully liberated from all suffering at that point. You're fully liberated from all suffering. The body is still subject to aging, the body is still subject to illness, the body is still subject to pain, but there won't be any mental suffering dependent on that experience. There won't be any identification dependent on that experience, because it is that identification process that gives rise to further renewal of being and further rebirth. So when you destroy the taints, you also destroy further rebirth.

So, and that sounds incredible, but are you saying if I just meditate a few minutes a day, I can get there or what does it really take to, you know, how could we understand that project? Yeah, it's not about meditating a few hours, a few minutes a day. It's actually about meditating 24 hours a day. And the reason I say that is because, yes, you are doing the sitting practice. You start at 30 minutes, then you go on to an hour, you go on to an hour and a half, you go on to two hours. And then when you're on retreat, you can go as much as six, seven, eight hours. But the meditation goes beyond just sitting.

There's also the walking component, but there's also meditation in terms of you can still be mindful of loving kindness. You can still have your mind collected around loving kindness while you're brushing your teeth, while you're taking your shower, while you're eating, while you're driving, while you're walking your dog, whatever it might be. So ultimately, it's a practice of being able to recognize whenever craving arises, being able to recognize whenever mind becomes, or rather lacks that mindfulness.

So in other words, every time you are recognizing that there's craving, and every time you use the six-hour process, you're getting one step further towards full awakening. You're getting one step further towards the destruction of the taints and towards arahatship. So every moment is an opportunity to train the mind in some sense. Absolutely, absolutely. Every moment of recognition that the mind is collected or every moment a recognition that the mind is distracted and taking something personal and craving is an opportunity rather than seeing it as a

terrible thing see it as an opportunity to exercise the six hours see it as an opportunity to cultivate the path to cultivate the eightfold path and an opportunity to let that go and experience the cessation of suffering in that moment so every time you're able to do this you're also seeing the four noble truths in that moment of reality could you even say that in that moment it's like a mundane awakening every time you six are it's a mundane experience in nirvana

so in other words every time you see craving there there is then suffering due to it but every time you use the path which is to use a six-hour process and you relax there is an experience where the mind is expansive there's an experience where the mind is clear collected calm and bright and that is because of the experience of the mundane nibbana when you use the six r's i guess that also makes sense in terms of the word awakening because we spend so much of the day in a kind of a daydream a mental daydream projecting the future and past yes but as soon as we recognize that the mind's craving some of that and let it go you're awakened out of that daydream exactly exactly so you have awakened from that daydream of life completely because people the untrained mind always is looking at things as a means to an end of how to satisfy the sixth sense basis and so they consider that to be really the goal is fulfilling one's pleasures fulfilling one's craving, but there is awakening to that and seeing that as leading to further suffering. And so awakening also is awakening to the nature of reality in that when there is no more craving, there is seeing reality as it actually is, unfiltered by craving, unfiltered by taking it personal and unfiltered by ignorance.