Interview#3: 31 Planes of Existence - the Agony and the Ecstasy -Conversations with Delson

Hello everyone, thanks for joining us. I'm Karuna and I'm here with Delson Armstrong. We're at Dhammasukha Meditation Center and this should be an interesting conversation. We want to really get into some of the Buddhist cosmology. So, Delson, I'll start by asking you, what is samsara? Can you unpack it a little bit for us? Sure. Samsara is really conditioned reality, conditioned experience. If you want to put it in a nutshell, it's really the working of karma. When we talk about karma, karma is understood in different ways, depending upon how you want to see it. There's unwholesome karma, there's wholesome karma, and there is the karma that is neither wholesome nor unwholesome. And that's the karma through the process of using the Eightfold Path.

There is old karma and new karma, and all these different understandings. But it is karma that continues to spin the wheel of samsara. When we talk about the wheel of samsara, the idea is that there is rebirth that happens. Now, rebirth is not the same as reincarnation. So we have to understand reincarnation means there's an incarnate soul that continues to take different lives. So it's one thread of a soul or one thread of consciousness that comes from one lifetime to the next lifetime and so on. But rebirth is different. What rebirth says is there's no self, there's no soul. It's just karma that causes the arising of new consciousness.

to arise in a new existence. And then that then gives rise to certain karma depending upon your intentions, the choices, the actions, and everything else related to that. And then if there's a further rebirth, that arises because that consciousness then dissipates. And that karma, that new karma, gives rise to another consciousness that then gives rise to another lifetime. And you're talking about on a micro level now because we're not talking about a consciousness as a soul. No, I'm talking about the micro level as well as the macro level. As well as the macro, yeah.

What I'm saying here is, on the micro level, especially in the six jhana, in the arupa jhana of infinite consciousness, you see the arising and basically flickering or things like that. And what you're seeing is the arising and passing away of individual consciousnesses. But those individual consciousnesses are not in and of themselves self. They are just arising because of causes and conditions. Now, you can expand this up into your daily life, but you can then expand this up into an entire lifetime, and then between one lifetime and the next lifetime. And this is really that whole process of samsara. And samsara constitutes of various planes of existence. There are the 31 planes of existence as we know them.

The point I was just emphasizing is that there's not, unlike the idea of reincarnation being a soul and then it reincarnates, it's a bunch of consciousnesses arising and passing away, including into the next lifetime. That's correct. And so, let's get into those different 31 planes of existence, places you can end up depending on your karma. That's right. That's right. So I think it would be ideal if we start with this realm that we're in right now, which is the human existence.

And the human existence is quite interesting because this is an opportunity for you, a really rare opportunity for you to get off of the wheel of samsara. A very rare opportunity for you to experience Nibbana. So the Buddha actually has a certain interesting metaphor that he uses, or a simile that he uses, where, if I remember correctly, it's basically imagine there's a tortoise or a turtle and every hundred years or so it peeks out of its shell and there is like a ring or some kind of a net, and the chance of that net latching onto the head of that turtle when it peeks out is the rarity. That's the equivalent of how rare of a chance of human life is possible, a human existence is possible.

Once you really understand that, then you take things in a different way. Then you realize that, this is an opportunity not to be wasted. This is an opportunity, this lifetime here in the human existence, is an opportunity to really work towards awakening and work towards getting off of the wheel of samsara. And the reason the human realm is the way it is is because there's just enough, let's say, suffering to get a person to get to that point of samvega. Samvega is the urgency of seeing that, okay, I'm tired of suffering now. Is there a way out? And it allows the mind then to seek,

and then it usually will seek the Dhamma, and then from there experience the Dhamma and experience Nibbana and so on. But there's also just enough pleasure in the form of the sensual pleasures as well as mental pleasures, so you could say that human existence is, if you want to put it that way, the best of both worlds, because you have some certain pleasures which are also the experience of jhana for example. But then you also have certain pain, so your nervous system in this particular existence, in the human existence, is wired for both certain levels of pleasure and for certain levels of pain. And that pain motivates somebody to find greater pleasure, but eventually they see with insight and with correct understanding that this pleasure also is impermanent.

So the sensual pleasures become less and less likely to be grasped on when you experience the jhanas, because you see there is a pleasure born not from the senses, not from sensual pleasures, but born in the mind, in the experience of the mental realm. So that helps you to really understand the impermanent nature of this conditioned reality, and that gets you off of the wheel when you have enough insight into the links of dependent origination.

Below the human realm, there are the other realms, which are the hell realms, the ghost realms, the hungry ghost realms, and the animal realms. Now, the thing is, these lower realms, the existence into these lower realms, happens because of specifically wrong view. So it's understood that when you become a stream enterer, when you become a sotapanna, you close off any possibility of rebirth in any of these lower existences.

And that is a wonderful thing to think about. That is a great motivator to understand, which is, if I can do this practice correctly, if I do the twin practice and am successful, and success meaning attain sotapanna, attain stream entry, then I have dropped a mountain of suffering. I have dropped an ocean of suffering, because now I will, well, the mind or the experience will be that there will be no more rebirth in a lower realm. That's a wonderful thing to consider. One of the key reasons for existences in lower realms is to do with wrong view.

The whole experience of following this path, following the twin practice during the six hours, is about getting to the right view. And the right view is the understanding of the four noble truths to a certain extent. The right view is the understanding of karma. Karma is basically action and consequence. If I do something, I will feel the consequence of that at a future period of time, whether it's in one moment or a lifetime later or multiple lifetimes later, depending upon the seed of that karma and how quickly it grows and other things like that. But if you are able to follow this path, then you get to the right view. And because of that right view, you have dropped all other wrong views that can lead you to confusion, not only in this world, not only in this lifetime, but confusion in future lifetimes.

And those future lifetimes will be lifetimes of misery and confusion in the lower realms. Okay, and maybe we could get into what those realms actually look like? What are the beings like? What are the nervous systems like? Yes, that's interesting, because the hell realms are like your own personal hell, if you will. So depending upon what you did, the severity of your actions and so on, you, or that karma, creates your own hell.

Now, the understanding is when the being, first of all, it's important to understand the being spontaneously generates. And what that means is there's no birthing process. There's no birthing process as we understand through the process of mammals and human beings, or there's no process of being in an egg and then hatching out of an egg and those kinds of ways of coming into existence. This is spontaneous generation, and what that means is the karma produces the nama-rupa, produces a mentality materiality in which the new consciousness becomes active. And so whatever the karma is will then generate that new body in the hell realm. So once that happens, the understanding is this person or this being is now led into a hallway or some kind of a cave, a cavern, or however you visualize it, and they are met with what is named as Yama.

So these are the wardens of hell who guide you through to meet Yama. And Yama is sort of like a concierge of hell, if you will. He's the guy who says, okay, welcome. Now these are the deeds. Have you reviewed these deeds? Do you know what you've done? And so on. And continue on. So he's not here to judge you. He's just there to remind you. Did you see this happen?

Were you not aware of the impermanence of life? Were you not aware of the suffering in life? Were you not aware of karma, that if you did bad things, that you would be punished for them, even in that same lifetime? Let's say you robbed a bank and you got caught. You robbed the bank, that was the bad action. You got caught, arrested and went to jail. That is the consequence of that wrong action. So after this reminder, after this review phase, the being is led into their personal hell. So Yama is not there to cast judgment, and he arises in that life or in that existence of hell. And it's important to understand he's both a peta and a deva. In other words, he has certain qualities which allow him to experience the deva realms, but then he comes back to his office work of being this concierge of hell, if you will. And one of the reasons is because in a previous life he might have been a judge who judged too harshly. He might have been a judge who became self-righteous.

He might have been a judge who was misguided and judged wrongly, and so on. And so the lesson for him to learn there is everybody is guided by their own karma. Their punishment is guided by their karma. It's not that you as a self are the one inflicting on it. So he took his job too seriously, and he enjoyed it too much. And as a consequence, he is ending up as Yama in this particular hell realm. Dustin, sorry to interrupt, but before we go further into hell, I just want to, I think it's important to maybe note where is this understanding coming from, where all these details come from. Yes, this comes from the suttas.

So all of the planes of existence are detailed in the suttas. And this particular explanation that I'm giving you about this process of meeting Yama and everything is actually in the Majjhima Nikaya. It's in what is known as the Devaduta Sutta, which is known as the Messenger of the Gods Sutta. Okay, please continue. So we're in hell. So now we continue. We've gone past Yama. Yeah, so now we go past Yama and the wardens of hell, the people who are inflicting the punishment of hell, let's say. These are people who were torturers in a past life, people who enjoyed inflicting punishment on others, people who enjoyed torturing other living beings and things like that.

And their karma leads them into this process of torturing these beings. So it's not a nice job, obviously, and it's not a nice punishment, obviously, but there's no capacity for them to do anything else but run out that karma of being a warden of hell, and there might be an opportunity then to go into a higher existence. So that's the second type of being, and then the third type of being is the being that is experiencing the punishments of hell. That's the being who was led into the office of Yama and then taken to his or her, let's say, personal hell, so to speak. And these personal hells, there are descriptions of it where you're put into a vat of boiling oil, and your skin is basically becoming like fried up, and then you come back up again, and you are regenerated, and it happens again.

Or there are beings who flail you, and there are other beings that put acid down your throat. And it's all kinds of really torturous stuff, very gratuitous tortures that can be seen. And did you have to do something equivalent or cause that equivalent amount of pain to others to be put in those horrible situations? Yeah, it depends upon the karma and the severity of that karma. For example, and by the way, there's hot hells, meaning there's fiery hells, and there are cold hells, which are icy cold.

So it's not just like the Christian imagery of like fire and brimstone, although that's there, but there's also icy hells, which there's, it's like, there's one hell which is known as the chattering of teeth because it's so cold and so on and so forth. But, for example, now when you come to karma, the lowest hell or the most extreme form of hell is known as Avici. And that is where beings like Devadatta, who was the Buddha's cousin, are. Now, it's interesting to note, the reason why Devadatta was in that hell was, number one, he tried to harm the Buddha. He drew blood of the Buddha, meaning he tried to draw the blood of the Buddha with intent to harm a Buddha.

And because of that, that caused him to go here. Now, the interesting thing about that is he took refuge in the Buddha or he had some level of good karma that allows him now later on to become a Pacceka Buddha in a future lifetime. So that's also important to understand that these hell realms are not permanent. What is a Pacceka Buddha for people? So Pacceka Buddha is a solitary Buddha. It's one who becomes enlightened, but doesn't have the capacity to teach the way a Sammasambuddha, which is the Gautama Buddha, as we know, historically speaking, who became a Buddha, but then had the capacity and the faculties to be able to teach the Dhamma.

So Avici Hell, for example, there's five heinous crimes that can lead you to Avici Hell immediately. And that is patricide, which is the killing of your father, the killing of your mother, matricide, killing of an arahant, drawing the blood of a Buddha, and creating division in the Sangha. These are the five heinous crimes that can lead you to the Avici Hell. And they're known as the karma that is immediate.

In other words, there's no gap between when you did that karma and then you die and then that karma immediately leads you to that hell. It's not like it will take some time to sprout and create that experience for you. It will immediately lead you to that hell realm. What would be an example of creating a fissure in the Sangha? Well, creating a fissure in a Sangha would mean something like casting doubts on the practice, casting doubts on another member of the Sangha, or gossiping about another member of the Sangha and creating friction between Sangha members. That can cause them to fight amongst themselves and creating all kinds of arguments and debates that don't lead to anywhere, and that can cause even some people to leave the Sangha or start to become boisterous and even violent and things like that.

So in creating controversies of heresy and things like that within the Sangha, where people start to disagree on different things, and it's just a breaking up of the Sangha, and that is a terrible thing. And what makes this the worst hell, Avici? Well, for one, it is where there is immense amounts of different kinds of torture, and it really depends upon the person and the actions that they do. There's a different kind of torture where they go from one end to the other, and the walls close down on them, and there's like spiked walls. So the different details of the punishments get really gratuitous. There's a lot of violent and very gory things that can happen to that person.

And there's a mental component there, too. So we were talking about the nervous system of a human is able to experience both pain and pleasure. Here in these hell realms, the nervous system is built to experience the worst forms of pain and no pleasure at all. And you're there for how long on average? It depends upon the severity of the karma. It can last for eons, or it can last for a long, long, long time. And is that time passing the same way time passes on earth? You're like aware of being there for eons? Yeah, it is a human reckoning. But it's interesting to note that time feels slower in a hell realm.

Oh, jeez. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so that's hell. Do you want to escape hell and go up? Anything further you want to say about hell? Yeah, if you want to not go to hell, think about your actions. Think about what you're doing. Think about your intentions. Think about what you're doing in terms of contributing to yourself and your improvement of your mind and your emotions, which then can also reflect on how you treat other people in your relationships and reflects how you see the world around you, which also gets back into right view.

So being able to come to that point where you can come to the right view, you completely close off any opportunity to get to a hell realm. Okay, yeah. Now let's go to maybe more pleasant topics, working our way up from human, or I guess we should touch on hungry ghost. Yeah, so the hungry ghost, for example, they can be seen around us if you have the ability to see them, and they walk around, and they're basically these beings that were greedy in a past life or unscrupulous, and they were sort of like trying to cheat other people, or got into these different kinds of business dealings that led to cheating other people out of their savings and things like that. So jealousy is one thing that leads them there. Greed is something that leads them there. Deceit is something else that leads them there. And what happens is the greed for something causes them to always be looking for things. They're always never satisfied.

They're basically sometimes described, or they're seen as, these beings with large bellies, right, but with very thin throats, so it's like nothing can really go in to satisfy that being. And there are interesting, they have long black hair, they look like ghosts you would see in, like, that movie The Grudge, if anyone has seen it. There's like those kinds of beings. They look very much like very emaciated, very thin, deprived.

They're not happy beings at all. I thought it was a tiny mouth, is that one? Well, there's one that has a tiny mouth. There's different looking ones. There's one that has, like, a tiny gullet or a tiny throat. There's another one that has a mouth the size of a pinhole. There's one where their neck is like this, and their head cranes up like this, so for them to be able to look down they have to bend over like this. So there's all kinds of weird looking, very macabre looking beings in the hungry ghost realms, but the theme of the hungry ghost, or the understanding of existence in the hungry ghost, is you can't create any good karma here, just like in the hell realms.

You're only burning the fuel of the karma that has led you to this particular realm. But when you, or when the relatives of these hungry ghosts on the earth realm, in the human existence, go to give something to the Sangha and they get merit from that, they transfer that merit to a relative. And that relative might be in a hungry ghost realm, and that merit allows them then to have a better existence in a human existence, for example. So, for example, I was in Cambodia for some time, and it's actually still going on. There's a festival called Pchum Ben. And what that is, is they go out to the different monasteries, and they donate food, they donate clothing, robes, they donate medicines, or even some people construct new monasteries and things like that.

And the merit of doing those kinds of things to support the Sangha, immediately they transfer that to go to one of their relatives, whoever that relative might be. And if that relative is in a hungry ghost realm, that relative receives that merit, and that merit is that good karma that leads them to a human existence. Okay, so that's hungry ghosts. And then how about the animal realm? What would you say about that? The animal realm is basically concordant with the human realm in the sense that you can see animals with your naked eye. You can't see hungry ghosts. You can't see other kinds of realms, because you need a certain level of meditative attainment to develop your psychic vision, so to speak.

But here the animals are perceivable, and there are different kinds of animals. There are mammals and reptiles and fish and birds and so on and so forth. The animal realm is also painful. It's a painful existence. You think about animals when they're out in the wilderness. First of all, they are known as the tiracchana yoni, which means parallel. In other words, they're on all fours. And when they're in the wilderness, they have to survive. They have to look for food. They have to look for water. They have to look for shelter against the elements, against the rain and snow and whatever it might be. And, you know, there's always predators around, or there's not enough food around, and things like that.

Now, granted, there are some animals, like the animals of Dhammasukha, that have really good karma to be animals here. You know, you have really great cats and dogs who are well-fed and loved and nourished and all of that. So there is some mixed karma there, in which those kinds of animals are pets of generous family members who like to feed them and love them and take care of them. That's a good thing. And sometimes the animal might be born in a family, or might be part of a family, where that family is following the Dhamma, or somebody in that family is following the Dhamma, and they might go to Dhamma talks or watch Dhamma talks, and the animal is listening to those things. Those formations of those Dhamma talks can lead them to having good merit, and that can actually lead them to having a good existence in a human life. Now, there's an interesting side story. The idea is that when the Bodhisatta, before he became the Buddha, left

his palace on a horse, and the name of the horse was Kanthaka, and because of the service he rendered to the Bodhisatta, when Kanthaka died, he went into Tusita Heaven. And now he's born as a being in the Tusita Heaven, which we'll get to soon. But that is really the animal existence. It is an existence of pain, but it also has mixed karma, depending upon the previous karma that led them there. And when people become attached to their animals, become attached to their pets, and they think of them before they die, they are liable to experience that existence. So if you see visions as you die of animals and things like that, then there is a fair chance you're going to get into the animal realm.

Okay, so now from human, we go up to the deva realms. I was talking about the intermediary realms, right? Like the realms just before the deva. So you were talking about can we get into the deva realms, and I said, before we get into that, I just want to touch a little bit on the realms between the humans and the devas. Okay, yeah. So why don't you just, yeah, go ahead on that. Right. So before we get into the other deva realms, I just want to touch a little bit on some of the other beings that are there within this realm of existence, because

they are the inspiration for a lot of the fairy tales that you hear about. So, like, the fairies or the pixies or the leprechauns and genies and all of these other things are basically all of the other kinds of beings, like the kinnaras and all really strange kinds of beings. And there's the nagas, which are like these reptilian-like beings, and they are the inspiration for the experience of dragons that you see all around cultures, in different cultures, and things like that. So people used to see these things more often, presumably? Well, they either somehow encountered them, because they kind of stumbled into it, and then they were like, wow, look at that, I saw something, and other people didn't see it, and they were like, yeah, I don't know if you're hallucinating or something. But there was something to be said about the cultural similarities

between some of these different beings, even though they're worlds apart or countries apart. So these different beings exist, and actually, there's an interesting story where there was a naga, who was like a reptilian being, and he was a shapeshifter, and he was, well, he turned into a human, or he looked like a human, and then he wanted to join the Sangha.

So he went to join the Sangha, and what happened was, later on at night, he re-transformed back into his naga self, into his naga look, and it just scared everybody, and they were like, what is this? And so one of the rules that came up was, when you go and ordain, one of the questions is, are you an animal or a naga pretending to be a human?

And you have to be honest, and you have to say whether you are or you're not. I'm sure that has deterred a lot of naga monks. Which is interesting, because naga also means arahant. It's another word for arahant, but it has no connection to the word naga from the reptilians. Right. We see here in the sharing of the merit, it says, devas and nagas of mighty power. Right. It says, devas and nagas of mighty power.

And what you see, devas are obviously the celestial beings, but nagas here is referring to existing arahants, arahants here in samsara at the moment. And the reason why they're called naga is not because they're reptilian in nature or anything like that, but it's a short form of two words. It's like a contraction of two words. That's the na, which means no, and aguna.

So aguna means, and that's really interesting, it's like a double negative. So guna means something that is bad, and aguna is something that is not bad. So it's like na aguna, so not bad, bad. It's like it is good. It's the best. Not bad, bad, right? Or not that bad? No, not so so. I'll go back to that. So the experience is it's na, which is no, and then aguna, yeah, which means bad, which means bad. So they're not bad. Okay, yeah. The arahants are not so bad, they're not. Okay, you know, they're pretty good.

That's the contraction. The naga means they're not bad, meaning they are completely wholesome. There's not one iota of an unwholesome nature in the arahant. So these are the different kinds of beings, and different kinds of things that people can encounter, different kinds of humanoids and things like that, because that's the other understanding: there are other humanoids that are existing that are not exactly the same kind of species as humans. They're just a different type of human. Can we perceive those? Or what would be an example of one of those? Well, one understanding is, like, in the past, Homo sapiens and Neanderthals might have lived together, for example. Things like that. Now, when we get into the higher realms, we're talking about the six central heavens, and they get better as you ascend into each of the realms, but these realms are basically called the devalokas. So I'm just going to talk about them collectively, with a few details here and there, because it's quite a lot of information, but basically

the way to get into any kind of devaloka is you have virtue, so in other words, if you have a wholesome mindset, you have a wholesome intention, you get into these deva realms. Now, before you go into the deva realms, there's also a realm known as the realm of the asuras. They're like deva-like beings, but they're not exactly devas. So depending upon your map of the realms of existence, they're sometimes below the humans and sometimes just above the humans, but they have a pretty good life. I mean, they live in a way where they party all night long, and things like that. And they're very strong. They're what you would call titans in Greek mythology. So asuras are basically these very fierce, strong beings who look like, when you see some Asian

drawings and things like that, or you see a Tibetan drawing of the wheel of samsara, you'll see this demonic-looking being, and that's like an asura. That's what they look like. In some ways they look like a fierce lion, or like a fierce dragon head, or things like that. So they're very, very well, they are scary-looking, but at the same time they have mixed karma, because they have a pretty comfortable lifestyle. And the idea is that they have a rivalry between themselves and the devas of the Tavatimsa heavens. The Tavatimsa heaven is the heaven of the 33 gods, specifically. The understanding is that they used to be there, and Saka, who is also known as Indra in Sanskrit, led an army, and he tricked them by getting them drunk

and they fell. So asura also means those who fell, and those who got drunk and fell. So they got tricked, and ever since then they've been trying to get back to Tavatimsa heaven. And so the understanding is, anytime there's more unwholesomeness in existence, the asuras kind of get further and further ahead towards Tavatimsa heaven, but not quite, because there's always some wholesome nature there. So they're always at battle. And here's an interesting thing: the chief of the asuras is Vepacitti, and he has a big rivalry against Saka, or Indra, who is the king of the 33.

But Sakka is married to Vepachitti's daughter, so they're connected as father-in-law or son-in-law. Wow. Okay. And you mentioned Greek mythology briefly, the Titans. Could that be what they may have been referring to? Yeah. And can I think, if I recall, the Titans gave birth to what became some of the Zeus and some of the mainstream gods? Right. And then Zeus, what he did was he overthrew them on Mount Olympus, right? And then he established that particular deity realm, which is Poseidon and Zeus and Ares and all of the other different kinds of gods. So that comes from that idea. So they're in the asura realm? Yes. All those

And they can give birth to other beings, or no? Well, that's interesting, because some devas can give birth to other devas, but just by thinking about them, manifesting them. So in these realms now, when you get into the experience of the asuras and devas, and from here on out, there is what is known as spontaneous generation, as we talked about. So the karma of the previous existence creates the body, and the consciousness descends into that body, and so it's just manifest, just like that. And how come, for example, the Greeks were really interested in Zeus and his posse, but then you don't hear other cultures talking about them? For example, well, if you think about Zeus and so on, there are cultural correlates of them in the form of the Norse gods. You have Odin and Thor, Loki, and beings like that. And in the Hindu or the Indian pantheon that we know of, Indra and Agni and Varuna. And all of those gods correlate to the Greek mythologies, or even the Roman mythology, which obviously adapted it from the Greek mythology.

Okay. And these are probably because people may have perceived? They perceived it in whatever they did, and they interpreted it in a certain way. So there have been people who can see into these different realms, and then they interpreted it according to what they saw in their cultural context. Right. But there's always a similarity, if you think about it, because Indra is also known as the lightning or thunder-wielding god, just like Zeus is, or just like Thor is.

So that might be the same post? Yeah, and that's a good point you bring up, because the post of Sakka, Sakka is not just a being that comes into existence and goes away. It's a post in that particular realm. So once this current Sakka goes on, there will be a new being to replace him as the new Sakka. I guess another point before we go on from there is that I've seen this giant mountain that exists in Buddhist cosmology. Could you explain what that is? Yeah, that is known as Sumeru. That's Sumeru in Sanskrit or Sineru in Pali. And the idea is this is like the axis mundi. It's like it's the center of the earth, and it's a spiritual place.

So in other words, it is a cosmic force that extends beyond the earth. And you can see it from many yojanas, and that's like many, many thousands of miles into space. But physically speaking, you cannot see it. Okay, because someone was speculating that might have been Mount Meru they were referring to. Right. That is the Mount Meru. Sumeru? That's Mount Meru. But you're saying it's not the physical Mount Meru that's there? Right. So people just took that and said that that's Mount Meru in the physical realm. Or in the same way, you have Olympus, and there is a physical correlate to that, and they say that's where the gods were living. Right. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, you want to just summarize where we are right now on the realms? Right. So we talked about the Tavatimsa heaven. Now I just want to just kind of jump ahead. So now we're going to talk about some more important highlights of that, which is the Tusita heaven. And the Tusita heaven is where the present bodhisatta is. And that is the Maitreya bodhisatta. And when the Dhamma as we know it becomes corrupted and eventually fades away, then this particular bodhisatta will choose to take existence in a human realm, and will choose his parents and choose everything like that, and take birth and become a bodhisatta on earth.

And then he will go through that same journey that Gautama went through, and then attain enlightenment or attain awakening, and then become a fully awakened Buddha and continue teaching the Dhamma. So the understanding here is there have been other Buddhas in the past. There have been innumerable Buddhas in the past. In this particular eon, we have had four Buddhas, and the fifth is the one to come, which is the Maitreya Buddha. Any speculation on how far in the future that might be? Not for some time, because there's a lot of things that have to happen for the Dhamma to be corrupted.

The idea is that it would last for a certain amount of time, and there will be certain signs about that. So this gets into the eschatology of it, which is like the aging of humans, or the lifespan of humans, let's say, diminishes and deteriorates to just 10 years old. Whoa, that's quite drastic. Something's gone really wrong. Yeah, yeah. The world's being run by 10-year-olds. We're in trouble. It's a big problem. And then what happens is, eventually, and the reason why that happens is because there's a lot more unwholesomeness coming into play. There's more corruption going on amongst people. There's a lot more violence going on amongst people. There's a lot more stealing and lying, you know, rapes and things like that.

And then eventually it becomes so bad that humans get into this post-apocalyptic kind of state. You know, the kind of thing we see in Mad Max and things like that. And then eventually it starts up again, and people realize the severity of the situation. And they start to again take the precepts, and they start to become wholesome again. And at a certain point, then, when the time is ripe, the Bodhisattva chooses to descend into the human plane as the Bodhisattva on the earth. And then starts his journey of rediscovering the Dhamma. Okay, so he's hanging out in Tusita Heaven. Yeah.

And then, you know, there's other kinds of devas. There's the cloud kind of devas, the rain devas, and things like that. But there's one interesting deva I want to talk about, and it might sound surprising, but that's the deva, his name is Mara, or his or her name is Mara, depending on how you want to see it. But Mara is actually a deva. Mara has been, in popular culture, looked on as a devil figure, like a satanic figure, sort of like one who tempts the Buddha, and things like that. But he lives up there in one of the high, the highest heavens, and he's just chilling out there, and he has his own sort of posse. He's sort of a rebel figure there, and he has his own group of groupies who just hang out with him, and things like that. And his whole thing, the way I liken it to, is like if you've ever seen crabs in a pot of water

like a deep pot of water, and they're trying to get out of the pot, there's another crab that's like grabbing onto them, and they're like, if I can't get out, I'm not going to let you get out either. Yeah, the crabs in a bucket. Crabs in a bucket. There you go. So Mara has that kind of a mindset. His whole thing is, you know, this is amazing. I mean, we are here enjoying all of our sensual pleasures. Why do you want to leave that? Why do you want to leave that kind of a state of being? So his whole thing is, whenever he goes to a monk or whenever he goes to a meditator or whenever he goes to an arahant or a Buddha, he'll try to say, you know, he'll try to misdirect them, mislead them into some other situation.

And Mara is also a psychological force, if you will. So there's different ways of understanding Mara, but Mara is definitely a being who contributes to trying to make people stop on their path, trying to make people give up trying to meditate, give up trying to go into a jhana realm, because as soon as they get into a jhana realm, now they experience better pleasures than sensual pleasures, and then they start to get motivated to get off the wheel of samsara, and so on. So this is being understood literally. It's not a metaphor for the hindrances. Mara is actually able to kind of hone in on meditators that are doing well and says, I don't want them getting off of samsara.

Yeah. And he's not doing it for any kind of ill will. He's just like, the more the merrier. I mean, why do you want to get off of this wheel of samsara? It's amazing. At least that's how he's looking at it. So he's just like a crazy party deva who's just like, come on guys, keep the party going. Exactly. That's exactly it. And so in the last two deva realms, they're known as the devas who wield certain kind of power, and they are able to experience the creation of them, their own. And then there are devas who experience the creation of others. And really what that means is there are devas who serve other devas, and they're devas who kind of are masters of other devas. But there's no. Okay, so what you have to understand is the deva realms are quite boisterous and noisy, with, like, they're partying most of the time. They're just enjoying themselves. There are some devas who have been introduced to the Dhamma and, you know, try to continue to maintain their virtue and so on. But a deva, their nervous system has been primed

to be able to experience the greatest amounts of pleasure. So for them it's like, you know, just party all night long and enjoy yourself, and you know, and become heedless and become reckless. But there are some devas who realize that no, this is not the way to go, you know, and they do have some understanding of the Dhamma and try to maintain some kind of decorum. But the thing about the devas is it's so long that some of them feel like they're immortal, like there's no death after this, and so they forget that whole process of impermanence, and they get carried away with themselves

This is really the devas, and these are the six sensual heavens. Now beyond that are the Brahma lokas, and each of the Brahma lokas is tied to each of the four jhanas. So there are four of them, four Brahma lokas, and they're graded according to the level of mastery that somebody experiences when they get into a jhana realm or a jhana state. So the first Brahma realm is associated with the first jhana, and in this particular realm you have three classes of beings. You have those who are known as the citizens of Brahma. They're the people who are just walking around and doing their own thing. Then there are what are known as the purohitas, the people who are the ministers of the Mahabrahma.

And then there is the Mahabrahma. And the problem with being a Mahabrahma is you have this notion that you are a creator god. So what happens is, after a certain point of destruction, when the Brahma realm is created, this first Brahma, the karma creates a nama-rupa of that particular Maha Brahma, and they come into being, and they're like, "Wow, where am I?" And they think they're the first of existence, and then they think about another being, or are there other beings around? Then suddenly other beings come up, and he thinks, or that being thinks, "Oh, I created these beings." So the idea of a creator god, when you see it in other cultures, really comes from this idea of Brahma, and there is a story where the Brahma feels like this, and the Buddha actually goes up to the Brahma realm and educates him on the fact that this is not the case. So the Abrahamic religions, yes. Now, are those all the same Brahma, or is, for example

Is Allah different from Christian God? Well, if you think about it, I mean, you think about the God or leader in Abrahamic... It's interesting, it's Abrahamic, it's so similar to the word Brahma as well, that Abraham, you know, it's almost like a wielding of different letters and creating that word. But that's just a side point. If you think about the notion of those creator gods within those religions, that god is always with this idea that "I am the creator of the universe, and I am the, you know, all-powerful, all-knowing, omniscient and omnipotent," and all of these things. This is exactly how Mahabrahma feels: it's like, "I am all of these things." And the way to understand the Brahma beings is they are just very, very different looking to what you would think in the sensual realm.

So this is important to understand. Everything from the hell realms all the way up to the six sensual, the six sensuous heavens, this is all part of the sensual realm. It's also known as the sense sphere, because that's where you experience everything through the five physical senses and so on. But here, when it comes to the Brahmas, they are so different in the way that they experience reality. It's understood in the suttas that the Brahmas hold the galaxies in the palm of their hands, and they look at them like marbles. So you can imagine the grandiosity that they have in terms of their being, and their nervous system, so to speak, is wired to experience the first jhana. These particular Brahmas are always blissed out. They enjoy the factors of the first jhana, which is the joy or the piti and the sukha, and they have mental activity going on in the way of verbalizing and things like that.

Do they have a nervous system per se? Yeah, they have a nervous system in the sense that they are still in the form realm. So there is some kind of luminous realm that's going on. When we think about the nervous system, now we're going into the realm of the subtle nervous system, the things like the nadis that you know of in yoga or other Eastern traditions, where the chi flows and things like that. That's the kind of experience that they have, but that is wired to experience great amounts of joy, great amounts of elation.

Okay, and then where did the yogic, or rather the Hindu gods, fit in? Like Shiva, and I guess Brahma is one of them, and, yeah, the third, Vishnu? Vishnu, yeah. So it's interesting to see that in the old religion, the old Vedic religion, we had Indra, we had Varuna, we had Agni, we had Vayu, and we had other gods who are part of the 33 in the Tavatimsa. But eventually the culture changed and they discovered other gods which are in these other realms, in the Brahma realms. So while we have Brahma, who is also the Hindu god Brahma, who is part of a Brahma realm, even Shiva and Vishnu are also part of the different Brahma lokas.

Okay. And then is Allah a separate Brahma, and Christian God a separate Brahma? Or are these maybe pointing to this? They're pointing to the same thing. The same one. Yeah. Because if you think about it, Brahma is the creator within this particular ideology, in the Hindu ideology, and so it's the same kind of idea: that Brahma gave life to existence and created all of existence, and so on. And then Vishnu is known as a preserver. Now, it's interesting to note that within Hinduism you have different sects, and these different sects always have a certain importance to a certain kind of god. So you have the Vaishnavites, who believe that Vishnu is the supreme creator, or you have the Shaivites, who believe that Shiva is the ultimate. But these are all epithets for the same kind of being. And so, is there one Brahma, since you talked about their kind of, they've got the galaxies in their fingertips, is there one Brahma that is kind of reigning over our solar system?

There are multiple different Brahmas. In other words, there are multiple Earths, just like there are multiple galaxies. There are multiple levels on the vertical plane; you have the 31 planes of existence. Yeah, but then parallel to that, you have all of these other planes of existence that are being experienced outside of what we're experiencing here, right? So there's a Brahma for another galaxy, there's a Brahma for a different galaxy or a different universe, and things like that. But we have one Brahma for this Earth; there's one Brahma in charge. Exactly. That's why you're saying it's the same one. Yeah, exactly. Well, when we say in charge, really just in charge of the Brahma Loka.

But we have only one Brahma within this particular vertical plane of the 31 realms of existence. So it's like a hologram. It just continues on. It's like fractals. How far does it go horizontally? Is there any idea of a quantity, or is it pretty infinite? It's pretty much beginningless, so it just continues on. So vertically it's just 31, but horizontally it's infinite. You could say it's infinite, because there is a scope in terms of how far you can radiate, and there are multiple universes. The way universes are created is through karma. The understanding is that when there's karma, it generates the building blocks of reality. Now, that doesn't mean karma is permanent or some kind of creator or something like that. It's just understood that the flow of karma starts to create certain circumstances, whether it's in our human existence. But there are times when the Brahma realms are completely empty, or certain realms are completely empty, because there's no karma, there are no beings there to experience their karma.

I guess that kind of goes to that phrase, "if the tree falls in the woods and there's no one there to hear it." It's like if there's no beings to experience it. Is there anyone to know that there's a realm there? Yeah. Exactly. So that is the first Brahma realm. The second Brahma realm is associated with the second jhana.

And these are known as the Abhasara beings. And there are three classes of those as well, depending upon the level of mastery of the jhana. When we talk about the level of mastery, that means basically getting to the jhana itself is one level of mastery. A second level of mastery is being able to get into that jhana quite frequently.

And then the third level of mastery is being able to go into that jhana at will, at different time intervals and determinations and things like that. So the second Brahma realm is totally different from the first Brahma realm, in that now these beings look completely different. First of all, there are three main categories of those beings, but there's a fourth just underneath that, where there's still some verbalizing going on. These are beings that are on the border between the first and the second.

So for whatever reason, because of their karma, they still have some level of verbalizations. The way it's translated is like beings of a lesser or a corrupted radiance, if you will. So Abhasara means the beings of radiance, and the reason is because when you look at them, they look like spheres of light, because they're so bright. And the reason they're so bright and radiant is because of the joy that they're feeling, the joy and the comfort that they're feeling, which is void of any other kind of factors of the jhana. And so this radiance continues on. If you see an Abhasara being, they just look like there's a sphere of light around them.

So they do have a subtle nervous system that is geared to experience greater amounts of that joy, greater amounts of that sukha. These beings live on for quite some time, for many, many, many eons, so much more than the Brahma realms and so on, the first Brahma realm. But are they as diluted into thinking that they are some kind of god creator? No. They are more interested in just experiencing the bliss. Okay. They're heroin addicts. They're heroin addicts. They just love that bliss, and they're just burning out that bliss.

So there's very little opportunity for them to really understand anything related to the Dhamma. They just think this is what it is and I'm going to just experience, you know, this bliss. But they were masters of the second jhana, you said, right? That's right. So they must have found the Dhamma at some point, but they're no longer interested in cultivating it further? Okay. Under certain circumstances they will, but if we have time we'll get into it. But for the most part these beings, the abhassara beings, are just burning out the fuel of their karma from having attained the second jhana. And you mentioned there's three levels of mastery. At what point would you make it pretty likely to be born into that correlating realm?

Well, when you have an attachment to that jhana, you are liable to experience that particular realm, that particular Brahma realm. Okay. Okay. All right. So going up from there. So then we get into the third Brahma realm, which are the subhakinha beings, and these beings are radiant. It's like how you see a gold bar, and there's light reflected on the gold bar, and you see this really cool kind of radiance to it. That's the way their radiance is. The subhakinha are a kind of goldish in colour, and it's very warm, very vibrant.

But they're very chilled out. They have complete sukha. So in the first and second Brahma realms there's a certain level of vibrancy, which is from the joy of piti, but now in the third Brahma realm they're kind of more chill. They're just really enjoying themselves, and they have this sukha. And so it's sort of understood that one of the ways the similes explain it is like the flame of a candle. In the first and second Brahma realms, the candle flame is all over the place, just moving here and there. But in the case of the third Brahma realm, the candle flame is stable.

It doesn't move at all, because the burning out process of that sukha takes slower. It's a slower burn of karma, if you will. Okay, so that correlates with the third jhana. Yeah. And does this go all the way up to the eighth? Yeah, so the fourth is interesting, because there are different components to the fourth Brahma realm. The fourth Brahma realm has different levels of beings, but they're always categorised under one thing, which are known as the Vehapphala beings, which are known as the beings of great fruit.

So these beings are those who have gotten to a level of the fourth jhana, and they take birth here. But within the fourth jhana, you have these beings who experience supreme equanimity. They are the most chilled out. It's like, everything's good, man. There's nothing to worry about. It's that kind of feeling. And they're all just very, very comfortable.

Nothing to think about. Nothing to do. Just chilling out. And one question that comes up is, so obviously going horizontally, there are infinite numbers of these beings. But just taking our slice, is there progressively less of these beings in each realm as it gets rarer to do that? Yes. Let's say there's seven billion humans, then are there a lot of beings in hell and way less as you go up? Yeah, I know people will not want to hear this, but there are more beings in hell than there are on Earth.

Wow. And there's obviously more animals. Yeah, there are more animals than there are humans, I mean, collectively speaking, but there are more. The majority of them are in hell. That's not a nice thing to say, but that's the truth. Wow, okay, so we should be thankful that we're here. And then, let's say, how rare does it get to... It gets pretty rarefied. I mean, it depends upon, like, for example, as I was getting into the fourth jhana, within this particular realm, you're still in the form realm, but now they're getting closer to the formless realms, which means that now these beings start to become translucent. And their nervous system is sort of geared to just experience comfort and tranquility and equanimity.

Now, there's another class of beings in there known as the asanyata beings. And the asanyata beings are those beings without perception, feeling and consciousness. But that doesn't mean that somebody who entered into cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness gets into this particular realm of existence or this kind of being. It's those beings who do certain kinds of practices that get them into states of suspended animation.

So in India, for example, you have yogis who will, you know, bury themselves into a box. They will sit in the box and go into suspended animation, and then people will bury them under the ground, and after some time they will pick them up again and they'll just come back out. But it's not a feeling of cessation of perception. It's not an experience of cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness. It's just a suspended animation. So what happens is they become so concentrated in their mind that they freeze all thought. They've suppressed the mind completely. Someone described it as, it's like, there are gears turning and someone jammed something in the gears. Yes, yes, that's exactly it. And so when that mind stops, it's like frozen in time, if you will. It's just frozen. And then if a person goes into this experience of the asanyata beings, which by the way they do have bodies, they do have form,

but there are other beings within the fourth jhana, within the fourth Brahma loka, that are kind of taking care of them, making sure that they're being okay and things like that. But these beings just go on without any kind of thought, without any kind of feeling, without any kind of perception, without any kind of consciousness, for eons. And then whatever thought was there that arose after they come up, they dissolve, and that thought creates a karma or formations that then create a consciousness that descends into the nama-rupa that was created based on that particular thought. Which means that if, through this process of suppression, the person, the yogi, or whoever, has a certain kind of thought that might be unwholesome,

and it freezes, and then they go into this realm of the asanyata, and then they come back up, that particular thought can be liable to take them into a lower realm, take them to a hell realm or a hungry ghost realm or an animal realm. So you were giving the example of the yogi going in the box, but that yogi comes back out of the box. Do they go there temporarily and then come back? These are people who die in that state. They will either die in that state or they'll just die of whatever it is. But because they've continuously done this, they think that that is the ultimate. And so they just die into that state.

So after they die, whatever thought was there before that will lead them into their next life, after making their whole experience of that particular existence. And then that thought will lead them into a new existence. So the yogi will die, but then there will be an experience in the asanyata realm. So while we are talking about the fourth jhana, there are these beings in that vicinity which have different levels, and these are known as the pure abodes.

And there is a specific way to get to the pure abodes, and that's to become an anagami. So we understand a stream enterer is somebody who has destroyed the first three fetters. We understand the sakadagami is one who has weakened and loosened sensual craving and aversion. But the anagami destroys the first five fetters. And there are five different kinds of anagami that are understood in the suttas, and these are references from the Anguttara and the Samyutta Nikaya. So they're dispersed in different parts. But the understanding is these different five types of the anagamis, they're described in a certain way in, well, they're mentioned in the suttas, but they're described a certain way in the commentaries, which don't match how it is understood from the suttas.

And the reason I say that is because the first type of anagami is known as the anagami who attains parinibbana in the interval. So it comes from the Pali antara parinibbayi, which means one who attains parinibbana in the interval. And the idea is just before there can be any consciousness that can arise to give rise to a next existence, if a person has become an anagami in a human existence, for example, when they pass on, there's just enough fuel for a certain kind of rising of consciousness, but just not enough to create the overall step into a new rebirth.

So this particular being will fizzle out, in the sense that they will experience the complete destruction of the second five fetters, so they will become effectively an arahat, attain arahatship, attain the fruition, and then enter into parinibbana, so to speak. So this is the first kind of anagami. But parinibbana, probably you should just mention what that is. Parinibbana is the final nibbana.

It's the experience that the Buddha had when he died. And we don't really say die, because what happens is the aggregates get dissolved. That means the form, the feeling, the perception, the formations and the consciousness no longer have any more fuel. And so that's also understood as nibbana without remainder. You're off the wheel. Well, you're completely off the wheel after that, or whatever has happened has come off of the wheel, let's say. Because an arahat is not necessarily any more being. There's no more coming into being for them. So they are already off the wheel. It's just that they have the fuel of the aggregates keeping them there, and then the aggregates dissolve.

And that's the final parinibbana. So in the case of the first type of anagami, this is what happens. The second type of anagami is known as the anagami, or one upon landing, the one who attains parinibbana upon landing. And that's interesting, because what that means is there's an interesting simile used for this. If you have hot iron and you're banging on that hot iron, and there are flecks of that iron coming off and dropping onto the cold ground, upon landing it gets cooled. So in the same way there is some karma cool in the form of clinging to the Dhamma, which is what the anagami has to let go of, which causes the consciousness then to descend into a new nama-rupa at the pure abode, and upon landing the being experiences arahatship, and then can experience parinibbana thereafter.

This is the second kind of anagami. The third kind of anagami is known as one who attains parinibbana without exertion. The difference between the second and the third is that one who, upon landing, attains arahatship and then enters parinibbana, is there's not enough fuel in the aggregates to continue. As soon as there is a fruition of arahatship, it dissolves and there's parinibbana. In the third case, they descend into the nama-rupa and they become arahants, or they attain arahatship, but they have no exertion in it. There's just some fuel left in the form of the five aggregates. Then after some time, they will experience parinibbana. The fourth type is like the third type, but the difference is that upon landing, they are still an anagami, but they need some more exertion.

They still need more meditation, more letting go, so that they attain arahatship. At some future time, they will attain parinibbana. Then there's the fifth type. Now, why do we call it an anagami? That means they're a non-returner. They don't return back to any of the sensual spheres of existence. They continue on to go through each of the pure abodes.

Each of the five pure abodes is related to a different faculty that somebody develops. If you develop the faculty of faith, or if you develop the faculty of energy, if you develop the faculty of mindfulness, if you develop the faculty of collectedness, or if you develop the faculty of wisdom, depending upon where your faculty is developed, that anagami will take rebirth in one of those five realms. Each of those faculties, in ascending order, corresponds to each of those pure abodes. The pure abodes are very interesting, because that's the only place you will find that anagamis will take rebirth.

And they will then become arahants and be off the wheel of samsara. Beyond this, we have the formless realms, which basically correspond to the formless jhanas, the arupa jhanas, the ayatanas. So you have the realm of infinite space. In these realms, there's no form, there's only mind. Meaning, when you think about nama-rupa, or you think about mentality and materiality, there's no more materiality here. There is only mentality. So there is an experience of infinite space, and at infinite space there's an experience of infinite consciousness, at the realm of infinite consciousness. The difference is that in infinite space there's an awareness that everything is just an infinitude of space. There are no borders anywhere. Some people have experienced this when they go back into their past lives, and they'll say, I had this experience where there was nothing to grab on to. There was like I was everything, or I was space itself.

That's the kind of experience that they'll have when they go back into this particular life. Or when you get into infinite consciousness, then you're starting to see different kinds of awarenesses arise and pass away in the mentality itself. Different kinds of thoughts and ideas and concepts and things like that. Then in nothingness, all of that stops. It's basically the same as the arupa jhana of nothingness, where it's very equanimous.

There's an experience of total peace and tranquillity here, and there's nothing there. There's nothing to be or nothing to hold on to, but there is still a sense of being, in the sense that I am nothing. That's the kind of thought process that arises in that sphere: that I have come to the ultimate, where I am nothing. So there's still subtle identification with being. And you would end up in one of those by getting attached to the jhanas again?

attached to the level of nothingness yeah yeah and then you have neither perception nor non-perception which is very interesting because if you think about people who've experienced neither perception non-perception there's not a whole lot that they can kind of experience in it in itself but they look back and they see you know what is happening and they are able to kind of notice certain things and things like that but in the realm of neither perception or non-perception all there is is conceit the basic conceit of i am so they won't have any experience as such they won't be able to recognize any kind of mental contact and things like that it's just a sense of i am like i exist and that's it and so when a being as has burned out the fuel of existence in here there's an intention that arises that can create a new existence in a different realm lower lower than that realm so these are really all of the well we've gone through sort of a a cliff notes version if you will of the 31 planes of existence

Thank you Delson, that was great. I guess if people want to get more into this and really go even more in depth, is there a resource you might recommend? Yes. Well, you can see them in the different suttas, but there is some information in some books, like the book called The Buddhist Cosmology, which is written by Venerable Punnadhammo. And I'm going to plug it: my upcoming book, which I'm still working on, on dependent origination, also gives some details of these different realms. Awesome, I'll look forward to that. Transcription by ESO. Translation by —