Interview#1: Dhamma Conversations with Delson Armstrong-Introduction & Jhanas

All right. Hello, everyone. My name is Karuna, and I'm a Salmanera temporary monk here at Dhammasukha Meditation Center, and I'm here with Delson Armstrong. Delson, how are you doing? Good, Karuna. How are you doing? Great. Do you want to tell everyone a little bit about, introduce yourself and where you come from and all that? Sure. So I was born in Mumbai in India and for the first five years of my life I lived there. I moved to the East Coast in New Jersey and I lived there for a couple of years before moving to Queens in New York.

So I had a fairly American childhood. I went to a Catholic school and over the summers just did the usual thing playing video games and playing tag and spending the summers riding bikes and things like that. When I was 13, I had a chance to go back to India and it was an interesting time because it was quite a culture shock. I didn't expect it, I didn't know what to expect when I went back, and I was really interested in the culture, almost a spirituality, yet, but when I returned, I was introduced to yoga by a family friend.

And he took me to a yoga studio and we did all of these different asanas, all of these different postures. And I remember coming out of there and being basically really happy and very relaxed and just, wow, what is this? How is it possible that you could do asanas and these kinds of practices and get you to these altered states?

And this friend of ours, he gave me a book on yoga, which I read, and that really started to spark my interest. I went back to India. I was at an international school for about three years, and it was quite interesting because I met all kinds of very, let's say, well-to-do people. You had people like the Prime Minister's nephew or the Princess of Nepal and things like that. While it was interesting and it was a lot of fun being there, it wasn't really that fascinating to me. I had a lot of dispassion for it. And that could be just because when I started doing yoga and meditation, it kind of ignited this disenchantment with the world.

And I learned about this program going to the Himalayas. And I went with this yogi who took me up to the Himalayas. Haridwar, Rishikesh, Uttarkashi, different places which are like the foothills of the Himalayas. And I learned a lot of things about different yoga practices, like from the Yoga Sutras, the Yoga Vishistha, the Hatha Pradipika Yoga, which is basically talking about all the different asanas and things like that.

And I had a lot of interesting, let's say, mystical experiences there. Canny things happened while I was there. But I learned a lot, met with some interesting teachers, different kinds of yogis, spent some time in caves, spent some time in ashrams, which are like these traveling spots for yogis who just wander around and stay with the night and have some food and continue on with their journey.

And I came back and I studied deeper into the Yoga Sutras and I went through each of the different Samadhi levels in the Yoga Sutra. So I experienced what they called Ananda Samadhi, Bhava Samadhi, Savikalpa Samadhi, Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Savicara Samadhi, Nirvicarat Samadhi, Dharma Megha Samadhi, all of these different kinds of Samadhis. And these are levels of concentration? These are levels of concentration. The whole point here is you're fixing your mind on one particular object anything else so your mind becomes super concentrated and it becomes so one-pointed that the goal here is that you become one with your object of meditation so the idea is it comes from this brahmanical understanding that you are the self or you are the soul or your mind is the soul and it becomes one with the universe which is the Brahman, the eternal consciousness, so to speak, and the idea is you just become super focused and then you get this amazing experience.

It's a wonderful experience, but it only lasts for maybe a few hours. But there's no real personality development. And that's a lot like when you read in the suttas, you see the Buddha, he goes through his own journey of looking for cessation of suffering, looking for a way out of this. And he comes across all of these ascetic practices that he does.

And he also comes across this process, which is the breathless meditation, as he calls it. And when I read that, it reminded me about Kriya Yoga, because that was something else I'd been studying. Kriya Yoga is nothing more than the manipulation of the nervous system, where you basically do certain kinds of postures. Breathing techniques, and it kind of arrests the respiratory system for quite a little bit, and it has an effect on the nervous system, but in doing so you might feel something that's elation and an altered state of consciousness. But then, so what? It doesn't really get you to any kind of insight, doesn't get you into any kind of knowledge or vision of reality as it is. So I was reading this, and the other part of it was the Buddha went through a process of jhana as well, but what we have to understand is that the jhana that he was first going through is what's known as anarya jhana, that is to say the non-noble

jhana because he talks about it and he said, I clenched my teeth, I pushed my tongue to the roof of my mouth, and I crushed mind with mind. And in doing so he says he became exhausted and this painful feeling that he was having mindfulness of tired him out. And he realized that this was not the path.

So it was interesting to see that. And then he goes to two other teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddhaka Ramaputta. And in the first case, when he meets Alara Kalama, he goes to the level of nothingness. But the pathway he goes to, that is to say, the way that he does it, is by concentrating, by creating the circumstances in the mind for the experience of this nothingness that you experience in the seventh jhana. The same thing happens when he goes to Uddhaka Ramaputta who says, I don't know the way to neither perception or non-perception, the eighth jhana, but my father knew it or my teacher knew it and I can tell you how to do it.

So the Buddha or the Bodhisattva at the time, he tried it and then he realized that the way to do it was also super concentrated. Not to see suffering, it didn't result in dispassion. It didn't result in disenchantment, dispassion and cessation. It didn't result in insight and awareness and understanding. It didn't result in Nibbana and the experience of the unconditioned.

So, like that, I had my own journey and I went through the process of the Yoga Sutras. I went through the process of Kriya Yoga. I went through the processes of self-inquiry and so on. But what I realized was there was a lot of effort being made, a lot of trying too hard. And in trying too hard, what happens is the mind becomes constricted rather than open. And when the mind becomes constricted, it tends to cause some form of restlessness and it causes pain in the head and in the body. I did the usual stuff. My career was basically in ghostwriting and screenwriting. I went to the New York Film Academy for a while, and then I moved to California, and I was doing ghostwriting over there for quite some time.

I helped develop an app, and then I was working at a public company and things like that. But I was still interested in meditation. I tried to keep up with my meditation. So I did a little bit of searching into Tibetan Buddhism, like Dzogchen and Mahamudra. And it was interesting, but then I became more interested in understanding what is this loving kindness that people talk about in Buddhism. So I did a YouTube search on it, and I see Bhante Vimalaramsi's video giving the instructions, and I go through his whole 10-day series, his retreat. does at the time and was not making much sense, but I had an opportunity in 2017 to do an online retreat program with David Johnson, and that was interesting because there I started really practicing the six R's. When you practice the six R's, the very central component to that is the relaxed step, and that's really the key that was missing in the practices that the Buddha was doing before he saw the way to Nibbana.

The way he saw the way to Nibbana was he remembered back at a time when his mind was relaxed and happy and calm and collected. And he used that as a way to get to the first jhana, the Arya jhanas, as we call them, which means it's the correct form of jhana. It's not a jhana that makes your mind super concentrated, but it's a jhana that becomes aware enough to be able to see how mind's attention moves. So that's really what we talk about when we say mindfulness.

So once I did the practice, I had some really interesting experiences, some really interesting insights. And later on, a couple of years later, I decided to start teaching after I had a chance to meet Bhante. And we had a chat and we had some really deep discussions on Dhamma. And finally he asked, what are your plans? Do you plan on teaching? And I said, yeah, I would if I had your permission. And he said, yeah, you have it. You should start teaching. And so I did, but I took a little break and went back into the suttas. And what I noticed is the more you do this practice, the more you do the six Rs, the more you get into this open awareness meditation, this way of understanding, which is really TWIM.

You're tranquil. You have wisdom. You have insight. And your awareness is able to see and recognize how mind is moving. The more I did that, the more I recognized some things that were talked about in the suttas, and so I saw that this really does work, and so I've been a teacher ever since of TWIM. That's a great journey, and I think maybe we should fill in also some of the background and philosophy, so that some people who might not be familiar with those systems would appreciate really the profundity of what you're saying, because for example I think there's a common conception that a lot of the spiritual traditions are pointing to the same thing, and that this Brahman and Atman merging is the ultimate goal, or depending on the tradition, that it's pointing at the same thing.

But you're saying you tried all those other practices just like the historical Buddha did, Siddhartha Gautama. And what you found is that that wasn't the ultimate end of suffering. It was another experience that arose and passed away. Is that right? That's correct. So when we talk about yoga, for example, the philosophy of yoga is all about the idea of merging the purusha, or the sense of self, with prakriti, which is existence. So that's another way of saying atman and brahman. And so the idea is there is this ideal that the mind constructs based on this philosophy.

And so all that's happening really is this concentration around that ideal. So it's still happening within conditioned experience. The point here is to let go and decondition the mind until it gets to the unconditioned. are one and the same thing, or any of the five aggregates are one and the same thing. And the notions in this is that if you start to do certain practices, you get certain experiences.

But those experiences are dependent, they're conditioned by that practice. But in this case, when we're talking about the experience of TWIM and getting to Nibbana, what this is, is a natural process of letting go. You're not constructing something in the case of yoga and other philosophies. You're not trying to create something through that practice. You're actually starting to just see how mind works and starting to see how your mind works. You see certain things like the hindrances and you let those go. When you let go of the hindrances, you get into that experience of jhana.

Cessation, and what that means is there is a natural process of letting go. There's a natural process in which an insight arises, and because of that insight the mind lets go further, and as the mind lets go further there's a deeper insight that arises, and this continues on so long as the mind remains collected and relaxed and aware. That's very different from the way Buddhism is being practiced now, even in a lot of different traditions, like, for example, the Vipassana movement that's become so popular. From my experience, there's a lot of striving and efforting and forcing the mind onto one object, a single-pointed attention.

And maybe you could talk a little bit more about how TWIM is this, it's a different jhana, it's an open, aware jhana that allows you to see the hindrances and allows for that cessation process to occur. Right, right. So what I want to discuss is really the different levels of the jhanas and what I mean when I say these are different levels of cessation and different levels of understanding as well.

So when you think about the other practices where you have a single object of meditation, the idea there is to then put your entire attention there, able to see a hindrance that's arising. So in other words, what you're doing is you're suppressing the mind. You're taking that object as the object of attention, but then you're suppressing the rest of the mind. You're suppressing the awareness for the sake of being attentive there. And what that does is it also suppresses the hindrances.

And when it suppresses the hindrances, there's no personality development. Whereas when we're talking about TWIM, what we're doing is we're able to keep the mind's attention collected around a single object of meditation. That can be any of the brahmaviharas. That can be loving kindness, that can be compassion, that can be joy, that can be equanimity. At a later stage it becomes quiet mind. But what you're doing here is the attention sort of revolves around, hovers around, the object of meditation so that the awareness is able to see and recognize certain insights that arise. Go back to, for example, in the suttas, the Majjhima Nikaya 111, the Anupada Sutta, where we see that Sariputta is looking at the different factors of the jhanas.

And this is a very important key here. He's able to keep his mind, as it's said, independent, detached, disassociated, a mind rid of barriers. And what that really means is, it's like metacognition. He's looking at how the mind is responding to different factors of the jhanas. But he's not allowing the mind to sway to these factors. Just the bare awareness that these factors have arisen, having not come to be, they arise. Having arisen, they cease. And what he's looking at directly is the impermanent nature of these jhanas. So he's already starting to look at the insight of anicca through this process. While his mind remains collected, and the only reason why you have the object of meditation,

is to bring up these different core factors of the jhana and also keep the mind collected, right? So what happens is, as you're doing that, then you start to get into deeper levels of cessation. For example, in the first jhana, what's ceasing is your interest in sensual experiences and activities. You close your eyes, you sit down to relax, and you close your eyes, and your mind starts to become more collected as it pays attention to its object of meditation.

And it says that it's secluded from unwholesome states. So what are these unwholesome states? They're basically the hindrances. So what we're talking about here is sensual craving, ill will, restlessness, doubt, and sloth and torpor. When these hindrances are no longer present, then the mind is said to be in an experience of jhana, in the first jhana, of sukha or comfort in the body. There's a level of tranquility.

And yes, there is mental activity in the form of what they call vitaka and vichara, which is the thinking and examining thought. That's the initialization of the mind starting to pay attention to the loving kindness. In the second jhana, what happens is that verbalization process ceases. So in the first jhana, what ceases are the hindrances and any kind of attraction to the sensual pleasures.

In the second jhana, what ceases is the verbalizations, the thinking and examining thought. And so now there's a level of self-confidence where the mind is just flowing. There is an experience of the loving kindness just flowing effortlessly. There's no longer a need to verbalize in order to bring that up. And when we get to the third jhana, what ceases is the experience of that joy, the piti, as we call it. It's that elation, that experience of uplifted joy. Because what's happening is now the mind is becoming even more tranquil as it starts to see different factors of the jhanas while staying with its object of meditation.

When that happens, you also start to lose awareness of the body. And that's the reason why, is because you're getting to a deeper level of sukha. And sukha, as I say, is like a tranquility and comfort. It's happiness of the body, a relaxed body. Then when you get to the fourth jhana, the experience is the cessation of sukha itself. And what remains is this mindfulness born of equanimity.

So there's no pain or pleasure. There's no concept of good or bad, negative or positive. It's just complete balance. And what's understood here traditionally is that when you're in the second jhana, as well are the verbal formations. And when you're in the fourth jhana, you're tranquilizing the bodily formations. So at this point, you have lost pretty much 90% awareness of the body. So in other words, it's like if a fly lands on your hand, you'll feel it when there's contact. You might feel the floor if you're sitting with your legs out. But if you're sitting on the ground or on a mat with your legs crossed, you might feel the contact with the legs and the floor.

But other than that, there is just this complete loss of awareness of the body. When you get to the fifth jhana, you cease completely any experience of the body. What usually happens is you kind of have an experience here in the head region because the loving kindness starts to feel like it's starting to get up into the head. It's not concentrated, so it doesn't feel like a pressure. It shouldn't feel like a pressure. It shouldn't feel like when you get into a yogic concentration, where you feel some pressure in the third eye. It's more like just this flowing experience that's happening. And depending upon the person, they can feel it all around the head, or they can feel it in the forehead, or just throughout their face, or whatever it might be.

That doesn't really matter. Indicative of is you're really getting deep into the fourth jhana now. Eventually, once you get into the fifth jhana, or as we say, the base of infinite space, so there is jhana, which are the first four jhanas, and these are the form realms, so to speak. But in the fourth jhana, there are these other levels, which are known as ayatanas in Pali. And these ayatanas are basically the base of infinite space, the base of infinite consciousness, the base of nothingness and the base of neither perception nor non-perception.

And if you're doing this correctly, where the mind is open enough and it's not super concentrated, what you will notice is that the mind naturally lets go of these processes within the different factors of the jhanas. You don't have to try to let go of them. You don't have to try to see the different factors. In the seeing itself, the mind just lets go. In the understanding of it, the mind lets go. And in letting go, it gets to a deeper level of insight when it gets to a higher level of jhana. So when you get to the ayatana of infinite space, what's happening there is all contact with the body ceases, all experience. Now you're really in the mental realm.

Now you're in what's known as the formless realm. There's no impingement happening with the form. And you're now starting to radiate this experience of loving kindness all throughout the universe. And there's a sensation of the infinitude of space. And it's like there's no sense of body. It's just all space and the experience of loving kindness. And eventually, as you do this, you don't need to try. That's the other part I need to explain over and over: you don't need to go to the experience of infinite consciousness.

Just the mere awareness, just the looking, just the experiencing, and the letting go whenever any hindrance arises. At that point, if it arises, and coming back to your object, that whole process allows the mind to just get to a different level of cessation. And now when we talk about the ayatanas, what's happening is we're ceasing, when we get into infinite consciousness, the perception of infinite space.

So this is really referring to Majjhima Nikaya 1.2.1, which is the shorter discourse on emptiness. And what that means is when you get to infinite consciousness, or that experience or that level is empty of the experience of infinite space. So the perception of infinite space ceases. Then when you get to the level of nothingness, the experience or the perception of infinite consciousness ceases.

And then when you get to the level of neither perception nor non-perception, the experience and perception of nothingness ceases. While that's going on, the experience of loving kindness also changes. It changes to compassion, and there's a certain quality to that feeling. It changes to joy, and there's a different quality to that feeling. And finally, it changes to equanimity. So you're going through the whole process of the Brahmaviharas.

Now, when you get to neither perception or non-perception, there's an experience of quiet mind. And this quiet mind is basically what happens is the mind becomes so pure, clear that now the mind itself becomes the object, and now it's mind looking at mind. It's like looking in on itself. And when this happens there is this pristine silence in the mind. For some time, initially, there will be some kind of experience where the mind feels like it's awake and asleep at the same time, and there is some kind of lucidity, but there's also a dream-like quality. So you might start to experience certain kinds of visions or colors or patterns, or call them disconnected thoughts or proto-thoughts, which are really what they are: formations, the mental formations arising.

Because at this point, what has happened is the verbal formations have ceased and the bodily formations have tranquilized. But now there are still mental formations in the form of mental feeling and perception. So in either perception or non-perception, what's going on is that recognizing certain things starts to diminish. And it's happening naturally. You're not doing anything to try to get to this state. The moment you try to get to this state and the moment you try to recognize things, you're out of neither perception or non-perception.

So the whole point there is to relax again and let go and allow the quiet mind to continue to silence and to tranquilize. Eventually what happens is, because of the non-attention to formations and the subtlest formation being the sense or the seat of I am, when that is completely let go of, then there is an experience of the cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness altogether.

So at that point, then, there is a cessation of mental formations, of mental feeling and perception. And as we understand it, consciousness is dependent on feeling and perception, and therefore that too ceases for a certain amount of time. And when the mind comes back online, this process has been done correctly according to the experience of the Buddha and other people who've tried it and experienced the same thing, which is vinnana. What is happening is you have been, in that sense, in the process of letting go and watching and being mindful. You're sharpening your mindfulness. You're sharpening your ability to see and gain insight from this. And so when the mind comes back online, the mind is crystal clear and the mindfulness is razor sharp, so that these little flickers come up, these little things come up, which are known or understood as the links of dependent origination.

So there is an understanding and awareness of how the building blocks of perception arise and how the mind creates the conditioned world according to the arising and passing away of these links of dependent origination. And because the mind has completely let go of any identification and attachment with these links, there's an immediate feeling of relief. And this relief is a result of having experienced Nibbana, and the mind experiences this really otherworldly joy, and that is the bliss of Nibbana. This is how this whole journey takes place.

For folks who want to dive into the practice, we wanted to also share David Johnson's book. And this was the teacher that Delson started with doing online retreats. Yeah, that's right. So I just wanted to say my introduction into TWIM in terms of the online retreat was through David Johnson. And he was my teacher who really guided me through this whole process. And this particular book, well, I've already talked to you about the jhanas and things like that. But this book goes even deeper into the understanding of the jhanas and takes you all the way to the experience of Nibbana. And what's wonderful is it also interweaves different meditator experiences. So it's not just David explaining it as he's experienced it and other people have experienced it, but also being able to see real-world examples of people who have experienced the different jhanas, cessation, and even Nibbana.

And it does start at the basics. So if you're new to all this and wondering, what are the 6R's and how do I start my practice? It then goes up to the most advanced levels of practice. So it's really a step-by-step guide all the way through the TWIM method, and it also has really detailed descriptions of each of the jhanas, which I found really helpful.

I don't actually know of anywhere else that that is to find those descriptions. Yeah, you're right, because the 6R's are the crucial step. That's the crucial process that's going on. So David really details what it means when we say to recognize, what it means when we say to release, what it means when we say to relax, what it means when we say to re-smile, what it means when we say return, and what it means when we say repeat. So you'll get all the basics, all the fundamentals. Basically this is a guidebook for your own practice. You can literally do the practice yourself if you want, self-guided, and use the book as a way of understanding where you are on the path. And you can always do an online retreat, or you can come to get a complete experience. If you want the sweet mugs, you've got to come to Dhammasuka. If you want to understand the 6R's, they're right here. So every time you take a sip of coffee, you know to recognize, you know to release, you know to relax, you know to re-smile, you know to return, and you know to repeat.