June 2021 Online Retreat Q&A 2

So welcome everyone to the second Q&A of this retreat. As I said last time, you're welcome to ask any questions regarding the practice, anything you've read in the material, anything you have questions about regarding the suttas, or whatever it might be. Who would like to get started? Hi Delson, Alexander here. I've got a question. Yes. And I'm going to put things in the chat, so I'll put it in the chat as well. It's a simple one. Line up. It's a line I've read or heard often: "views of the self", "regard myself as having form". I'm sure you're used to these: "regard form as self". Yeah, that's an easy one. Because "regarding self as having form" is eternalism, but the last two sound exactly the same as the second. So can you please clarify what is meant? Because I get confused, since it sounds like it's all the same thing.

Yeah, so, regarding form as self. Just so we're clear with everybody: regarding form as self would mean that the form is the same as the self, which means, like you said, nihilism or annihilationism, which is to say that once the form is gone, so is the self. Self as having form would mean that there is a self that possesses form. That is the eternalist view, as you said. That is to say, there is a self that is eternal and it possesses form. But the form in self, or self in form, is more about seeing the form as being an extension of self.

So self as having form is possessing a form of self, a self that possesses form. But the form in self means that there is this self which is apart from everything else and contains things. The form, the feeling, the perception, the formations and the consciousness are within this overarching self, or underlying self, the substratum of self. So that is also an eternalist view. And self in form is to say that the form possesses the self, that the self is within either the form, or the feeling, or the perception,

or the formations, or as consciousness, in consciousness. So traditionally they say that the first view is nihilist, but the remaining four are eternalist. That's the traditional understanding. Okay, I'll jump in. So, kind of an easy one. Let's say that you're spending your time in the arupa jhanas, and your daily practice is there, and you decide you want to go back to the first jhana for a sitting or a day or whatever. I'm kind of curious about the mechanics that are used in the twin teaching, like the, oh gosh, like the spiritual friend, and the feeling coming from your heart, if you've been spending all this time with everything in mind

and then you decide to go back to the first jhana. I'm assuming you don't just bring up a spiritual friend again and go back to your heart feeling, or do you? I guess I'm kind of curious how much of that holds over after you've been practicing for a long time, if you want to just jump back to the first jhana for some fun. Yeah, if you jump back to the first jhana you have metta in mind as your object.

In this case you would have a spiritual friend that you would send it out to, let's say. But I think I would say that the object doesn't really matter. It's more about understanding the factors of the first jhana. So when you go into determinations, and into looking at how to get into the first jhana for a whole day, or the second jhana, and so on, you're actually spending more time with the factors of the jhana. So your focus, so to speak, will be around the joy, around the intention, around the happiness, and so on. So the object at that point in time would actually be the actual factors of the jhana.

So in this case, the underlying factor here is joy, along with the intention of sending out metta, your spiritual faith. Interesting. Thanks. I was just kind of curious. There is metta and there is a jhana. These two are different things. The metta can be an object, and the jhana itself is the state or level of understanding. So I have a continuing question regarding that. Sometimes in my sits, I could be in an arupa jhana, and then suddenly there would be a blast in my body, which I interpreted as the first jhana. Lower and lower, so I interpret it as going through the second and third, maybe. But I didn't intend to send metta to any spiritual friend at that point, or I didn't get distracted with a spiritual friend. But that still counts as maybe a first jhana, if there's that impulse of joy coming up and keeping on as a stream? Or would it not be a first jhana because there was no spiritual friend in that case?

Mind, or did you have some kind of, let's say, an object of meditation at all? I wouldn't say so. No, no, no specific objects as such, just the radiation. So it sounds like you probably experienced piti as itself as an enlightenment factor, because you need to have all the factors there, which includes that collectedness around some kind of an object. Thank you.

Okay, I have a question. Yes. Normal life. When you have attained Nibbana, can you have friends and family and go to work and do all the normal kinds of stuff? I know you maybe are not that interested in it, but can you still do it if you think it's the right thing to do? If you, for example, think that your friends and family would miss you if you just secluded yourself, or if you want to make money to, for example, donate it to help people in that way. What do you think about that?

It depends on the attainment. So you see, Nibbana is one thing and the attainment is another. When you experience Nibbana for the first time, you experience stream entry. You enter into the first level of attainment, the first level of awakening. And there, basically, you have destroyed the first three fetters. You have an understanding that there is no underlying permanent personality that's running the show; there is just this series of cause and effect. You have destroyed the fetter of doubt, which is to say that you understand now that this is the way towards Nibbana, this is the way towards the cessation of suffering: the noble eightfold path. So you know what is wholesome, you know what is unwholesome, you know what is the right path.

You know what are the instructions and so on and so forth. And you have an experiential conviction in the Buddha and his teaching and Sangha. Then the third part of that, the third fetter, would be the attachment to rites and rituals, where you understand that there is an importance given to morality, but that is just one stepping stone towards insight and nirvana.

attachment to rites and rituals because you know that those don't lead you to nibbana so you destroyed that so there there will still be some craving there will still be some aversion for the sodapana which is the person who is a stream winner one who has attained nibbana for the first and second time and the the personality definitely changes because you see things in a different light you understand that things aren't personal and you don't hold on to things as as much as you did before but there's still sensual craving there's still aversion so you might still have uh you know inklings of uh sensual craving where you experience attachment to certain foods uh attachment to certain smells or aversion to certain smells and and so on and so forth uh you still have uh you still maintain the same relationships you did before with your family and friends and so on and so forth when you become a sakadagami that's that's basically where you have weakened the fetter of sensual craving and the fetter of aversion to such an extent

that when it does arise, or as soon as it arises, the mind is sharp enough to be able to recognize it and let it go. So there is still some iota of sensual craving and some iota of aversion. Now with the sakadagami it's the same thing: they can continue having a job, they can continue having money and making money, and so on and so forth, just like the sotapanna. Likewise with the anagami. Even when the anagami has destroyed the fetter of sensual craving and the fetter of aversion, they can still maintain a household life. They can still maintain...

In fact, you will see in the suttas, there are very prominent, let's say, wealthy and prominent people, who have attained the state of the anagami, which is that they have destroyed sensual craving, they have destroyed aversion, but they continue to maintain their household. They continue to maintain their same existing relationships, and so on and so forth. The exception is with the arahant. The arahant is someone who has destroyed all ten fetters. They've destroyed restlessness, they've destroyed the craving for any kind of jhanic realm or form realm, and craving for formless realms. They've destroyed conceit, and they've destroyed ignorance. Now, when they destroy all of this, there is no more a sense of doing anything or being anything. They've destroyed all sense of being and all sense of identity, so they're not motivated by any kind of craving, whether it's sensual craving or craving for existence or whatever it might be.

So it's difficult for them to stay in a normal household life. They don't have any interest in really making money and things like that. They will still maintain relationships with their family and their friends. There's nothing that I would say that bars them from not continuing to maintain those relationships. You see in the Suthas where Arahats go, for example, Sariputta.

Had a close relationship with his mother. He would go and visit her, along with the other monks, and when she was sick he would go and visit her, and so on and so forth. So it's not like you cut all ties to your family or cut all ties to your friends and things like that. But you don't have the same kind of understanding as you had before. When you become an arahant, you see everything as a series of causes and conditions. So you understand the kammic nature of why your parents are your parents. You understand the kammic nature of why you have certain friends, and so on and so forth. So you don't take anything seriously in that sense, you don't take anything personally in that sense. You see everything as being a part of this continuous arising and passing away of different causes, conditions and circumstances. So for the arahant, they will lead a very sort of

Secluded life. They will just lead a life that is secluded in meditation. They're capable of doing a lot of different things because their mind is free and rid of all kinds of barriers. So in terms of their mind and mindset, it's possible for them to do a lot of things. They would make great managers, they would make great leaders, and all kinds of things, because they don't have any ill intentions. They don't have any personal motivations. Whatever is the task is the task, and it's done, and so on. So you could say their brain is wired differently after having let go of every personal motivation and intention that is born from conceit and from ignorance.

Because of that, they are able to see reality as it is. So in fact, their minds are much sharper in that sense, and they're more capable of doing a lot of other things. But it's because of the fact that they've destroyed all craving, they don't have a craving to do anything that is, let's say, deemed making money as I said, or running a business, or whatever it might be. Even though they might be capable of it, they would be better suited to just continue meditating and helping people through their generosity, wisdom and compassion. That was a good answer. Thank you.

Welcome. Maybe I could ask an additional question. There are no sexual relationships left when you become an anagami? I'm not sure how it would be for sakadagami, but maybe as an addition, when you are young and planning to have children or something, might be something worthwhile to consider. Yes, that's a very good point. Yeah, sotapannas and sakadagamis will still have sexual relations, but with the anagami and definitely with the arahant, but definitely with the anagami, since they have destroyed all kinds of sensual craving, they won't have the same kind of outlook on sexuality and sexual relationships. They just don't have it anymore. That is a good point to consider for somebody who is on this path and who decides to plan for family and so on and so forth, because it's just not possible for the anagami or the arahant to maintain any kind of sexual.

- I actually want to follow up with that too. I'd been thinking about a question. So you said, and it's been said many times before, that after attaining Nirvana, you see reality as it truly is. And that seems to be kind of where it gets left. So I want to kind of get a better understanding of what that is. So I've kind of come up with a one to 10 scale to kind of like, maybe you can tell me about where this fits. So at one, we've got, oh, neat.

Cause and effect is really a thing. I should be nice to people, right? So that's one. And then 10 is like the movie, The Matrix, where the walls turn to green code and there's no spoon. And that's the thing about the condition. Just because you can move bullets with your mind and things like that doesn't mean it's an experience of nirvana, for example. But my main point here is this, that a lot of times you have to move bullets with your mind and things like that doesn't mean it's an experience of nirvana, for example.

You see in the description of the suttas, and a lot of times when people talk about the unconditioned, when they've experienced it, it's difficult to talk in language, because language itself is conditioned and there's different concepts that come with language. So if I say something in a certain way, we have, let's say, six or seven different people, and those people will take it in different ways, and there's six or seven different concepts behind that one sentence, that one word, depending upon the formations that are there in the mind. Those formations then create this sort of smoke screen of projections and associations. So nibbana is the clearing away of all that, the clearing away of the smoke screen, the clearing away of the associations, the clearing away of all of the mental proliferation. So seeing reality as it is means that there's no I making, there's no I projecting onto that aspect of reality. The way I see it as an individual or as a person, there's none of that, none of those conditions that come up because of past associations and past circumstances.

So that's one way to understand nibbana. The simplest way to understand nibbana is that it is the quenching of the fires of greed, hatred and delusion. In other words, that's why a lot of times nibbana is spoken of as what it is not. It is not attachment, it is not proliferation, it is not greed, and so on and so forth, and that's the closest you can get in terms of the language. But the experience of nibbana itself is beyond language, beyond concept, because it is the unconditioned. So the only way to really understand it is to actually experience it for yourself.

I will get right on that. I'm working on it. Thank you. I have a question which I don't really know how to formulate very well, so I'll try to just talk about it, and maybe you can give a talk on that. So what I want to know is what begins to happen to consciousness from the point of view of the 12 links. Once we start getting into either perception and beyond, just to give the context. So when we're in infinite consciousness, what happens to me, for example, with your consciousness is that it becomes slower and slower. And the sound just goes up and disappears. There's a gap, comes back. So what is happening in neither perception?

Is that becoming slower and slower whenever consciousness arises? Or is it just numbing itself out? Is it just dying down? What is exactly happening to the point where you would achieve cessation and there would be no consciousness anymore? So let me make sure I understand the question. So you're saying, in neither perception or non-perception, consciousness present, is that the question? Yeah, so I'm guessing there has to be some contacts in neither perception, right, even if it's the clear mind? So what would be happening with that, with each moment of consciousness? Is this dying down, in a sense, that each moment of contact is simply a number but very numb, very, how do you say, scales down? Or what really is with that consciousness, each moment of consciousness? So when you get into, for example, let's go through the whole process from infinite consciousness so that we get better clarity on this. In infinite consciousness, like you said, the different sensory consciousnesses start to slow down and you start to see the arising and passing away. So that is actually a slow-down version

of the process of hearing in in your case or for some people the process of the visual consciousness or sometimes even with the mind consciousness you start to see the gap between thoughts and you're starting to see the space between one thought and the other and then once you start to prolong those gaps between each arising and passing away or between one passing away and the next arising you actually start to widen that gap and in that gap is that no thingness there's no There's nothing that the mind is grabbing onto. And there's just the perception of nothingness.

In that perception of nothingness, there's still a consciousness. There's the consciousness that is the mind consciousness, the awareness. So consciousness, vinnana, that's the other thing about this word, vinnana, is like all of the other links of dependent origination, they have different meanings depending upon the context. So here vinnana is really the awareness, the knowing, the bare knowledge of the fact that the mind is in nothingness. Then as you let go of the perception of nothingness, there are gaps in your awareness that happen sometimes, so you come into this lucid deep sleep, this being awake and asleep at the same time. Still vinnana, there's still awareness there, but it's not completely formed, if one can say that, because what's happening now is you're getting to the level of formations.

And when you get to the level of formations, there's all kinds of disconnected imagery that comes up, and these are the formations that arise, give rise to a consciousness, give rise to the awareness of that consciousness in some way. But it's like, and I'm a little hesitant to use this word because it might have a different meaning, and everybody's fine, but the best I could describe it is, it's like a semi-consciousness. A semi-consciousness, like it's really starting to, it's starting to deteriorate. It's starting to slow down even more, to the point that it just switches off, because there's no longer any input, there's no longer any kind of formation that activates a next level of awareness, or the next process of awareness rather. So there is consciousness in the form of some kind of awareness.

that's perceiving that's able to discern that's able to know what is going on even if it's very easy even if there's not a lot of stuff that's going on that seems to make a lot of sense but there is still some consciousness still present now this is why it's mentioned that you have feeling perception and consciousness that are intertwined you can't really separate these two or these three you can start to kind of put emphasis of focus or attention on one of those three and start to just be more aware let's say of the feeling but the consciousness will always be there so long as there is some feeling and perception that's why the state of neither perception perception, because it's getting to the level where the perception itself, which is the actual knowing, the actual noting, or the naming capability of understanding what that is, the labeling capability of the mind starts to lessen, starts to soften, starts to become weaker until it no longer is there, and there is a cessation of that perception.

of a feeling that feeling that's there in neither perception and non-perception is the mental sensation of seeing these images, the mental sense sensation of recognizing something, of understanding something, of feeling something, and that something can't be completely articulated. It can't be completely cognized through perception. But the underlying base for all of this is that consciousness, that awareness which is tied with that feeling and perception. So what's happening is, as the feeling and as the perception starts to become slower, for lack of a better word, it starts to weaken, let's say, starts to become less and less prevalent as you get closer and closer towards the cessation, then even the awareness starts to die down. It's like a dial, right? The awareness becomes softer or lower in volume, let's say. That's the consciousness that you're referring to.

And eventually, when there is no more input at all, which is to say that the feeling completely subsides, so does the perception, and so does the consciousness dependent upon that experience. Does that make sense? There's a lot of stuff there. Yes, it just makes sense. It's more than what I came for, so thank you. Okay, good. Can I ask a question in relation to one of the Buddha's own descriptions of his awakening? I think it was MN number three, where he says that he went into the fourth jhana and then saw his past lives, and then saw how karma then directed lives in action, and then that was for all people. That's entirely different from the process outlined just now that I've read in TWIM.

So how do those two fit together? Because I don't know that I've ever read where the Buddha's described that process. Clearly, to an extent, of course, he intimates it in the Anupaya Sutta and a lot of other suttas. Right. But not explicitly in that way. He explicitly went a different way, talked about a different way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So more often than not, you will see, I haven't read all the sutras, so I'm not aware if he's mentioned in any other way, but the way I've come across it is, as you just said, where the Buddha goes through each of the first four jhanas, then he inclines the mind towards his past lives. In being able to then see the past lives, what's happening is he's able to see how the pentagination arises and passes away, depending upon those lives and the choices and so on.

He then extends it to the awareness of karma and rebirth of all beings in terms of all the different realms and the arising and passing away of beings in those realms, and then finally he inclines the mind towards understanding the four noble truths, understanding and experiencing the four noble truths, which then destroys the asavas, the taints. So the description that I'm giving is basically going from the first jhana all the way to the eighth jhana and then experiencing the cessation of feeling, which is another route to take. You see, if you go to what was the sutta that we talked about, well, there was a sutra in Digha Nikaya 33, and it's in other sutras as well, but it talks about the seven different kinds of persons, and that is to say you have one who is liberated both ways, which is one who goes to the first four jhanas, then goes through the and then experiences cessation of perception and feeling, destroys the taints and experiences arahatship, like Sariputta for example in Majjhima Nikaya 111.

Then there's a second category of beings who attain arahatship only through the first four jhanas. Then there are beings who are body witnesses, meaning their mentality has touched each of the jhanas and even cessation of perception and feeling, but they haven't yet experienced the destruction of the taints, which means they haven't experienced arahatship yet. So there are actually different ways that the Buddha talks about that beings can attain arahatship. It can be through the process of looking at threefold knowledge and then experiencing it that way. It could be through the process of going through each of the jhanas and the ayatanas and then experiencing cessation of perception and feeling.

experiencing the destruction of things, but I would say the central core of all of that is really getting a deep understanding of dependent origination. So once you get a deeper understanding of the dependent origination, then you're able to understand the impermanent nature of the five aggregates, the suffering aspect of the five aggregates, and therefore the impersonal aspect of the five, and you thereby destroy the clinging that is dependent upon those five aggregates, and upon seeing that, then you destroy the taints and experience our. There's different ways to do it, but the central core of that is the understanding of the dependent origination, and of course the actual destruction of the taints. Now, that sutta I was talking about, still just mentioned here in chat, it's called the chanting together, and that's the Digha Nikaya number 33.

And I believe it's in the sets of seven in there, where, sorry, I'm talking about the seven types of people that attain. So you have the first two that attain arahatship, and then the others who attain all eight jhanas, and then the others who attain just the first four jhanas, and then stream enterers, and so on. Thank you. I have a question, continuing to the earlier question regarding how one lives their daily life as they deepen their practice. From my understanding, I think that because almost like all things in our worldly or even daily lives degenerate, take the energy out of the mind, even from the smallest things, so that's why as we deepen the practice, the jhana is like a fuel replacement that energizes the mind.

Is this the right way to think about it? I mean, it's mentioned that there are beings who subsist on the joy, the devas who subsist on joy. So joy can be an energizing factor and a nutriment for them. To say that it happens in the human realm too, it's a possibility that you experience less hunger, for example, because you're more satisfied and content with the experience of the jhanic factor.

Okay. And also one thing is, as you put attention, for example, on the Brahmaviharas, it's also in a way don't take the energy out of you versus the worldly things, because I think that it keeps taking the attention out of you in a way. Yeah, you have to see the other thing. Yeah, that's a very good point.

You have to see also that because the attention is so collected, especially over something that is wholesome, like the Brahmaviharas or even the piti and the sukha enlightenment factors, they are not dealing with the five physical senses. So in other words, the jhanas themselves, the first jhana itself, is this happiness and joy born of seclusion, and that seclusion is that the mind is afraid of any attention towards the sensory experiences, and the sensory experiences themselves can be tiring, can be detrimental to the mind, experiencing the senses in one way or another and tiring out the actual physicality, the actual body, and the mind itself as well. So it's two things. Number one is understanding the sensual, the sensory experiences themselves, as being impermanent and therefore abandoning any attention to them, and then creating a mind that is collected around something that is wholesome. One example that's often used in different schools, in different circumstances, is this idea that let's say you have a very tired

a tiring day. You went to the office and it was very difficult and very challenging. You came back home and you were very tired, and you were ready to just basically sit down and watch some television or just relax or whatever it might be, and then suddenly you get a phone call from a very old friend of yours, and you feel so happy and elated at listening to them and having that conversation. You have no awareness of the tiredness of your body. In fact, you feel elated, and you have this energizing joy in you, so that you forget that you were, you've forgotten that you were ever tired before, right? And so that's the same with any kind of wholesome state of mind. It really naturally uplifts the mind, it naturally energizes the body, especially the Brahmaviharas and piti and sukha.

Thank you, Destin. Less make a lot more sense. Welcome. You know what? Going on about happiness, I've got another little question for you. First off, that was a great example. That was interesting. So recently, like, I kind of, I don't know, like, I think I had, I had been taking in my practice the metta or the brahmaviharas more personally than I should have. And at some point, I don't know, the last few months or something, it really like I got separate from it and it felt good. Like I was like, oh, wow, cool. There's this separation.

And the moment that happened, I felt like I understood the Dhammapada verse a little better, that happiness follows one, because I've always read it as just happiness follows one. That just means you will be happy. But in this case, I'm like, no, happiness is following along, like just like they say, like a draft ox kind of thing. And so as I've been struggling with a hindrance, a pretty big one, for this last week or so, there are times often where I can't see the brahmavihara, I can't focus on it, but it doesn't feel like it felt in the past where I can't bring it up. It feels more like it's cloudy, and then sometimes the cloud passes and there it is. It's been there the whole time. And I'm kind of curious if this is related to, is the happiness, is the Brahmavihara following me?

It's always been there, but just this hindrance is blocking me from seeing it, or am I out of my mind? I don't know. Any thoughts on this? That's a good question. I would say it's dependent upon your attention. Everything that arises is dependent upon your attention. So it's not that the Brahmavihara is naturally there, or the joy is naturally there. It's just that there are certain causes and conditions that bring it up. So if your attention is orienting or inclining towards one of the brahmaviharas, your attention continues to feed it, and so because of the non-attention to, say, the hindrance, or the non-attention to this clouded sense of what's going on, it goes away because the attention is what gives the energy to it. It might seem like the brahmavihara is always there, but in reality the truth is it's only arising because of the causes and conditions and beginning with your attention towards it. And so your mindset might be such that it naturally inclines towards the brahmaviharas. Through continuous practice, through persistent effort, you start to re-format

you know or or you start to replace the formations of the unwholesome so that your your mindset don't doesn't automatically incline towards that negative situation in a way that causes more unwholesome states or any situation which will create an unwholesome state instead because you continually persist in that effort to cultivate the brahma vihaz you see that your mindset is starting to incline towards that the formations that give rise to that new consciousness is already inclining towards the Brahmavihara or inclining towards having attention towards the Brahmavihara. So it might seem like it's always there, but it's only because of those causes and conditions. - Got it. Thank you very much. - Sir, I have a question.

- Yes. Sometimes when we are meditating, we fall asleep. And sometimes in higher jhana also, while we are meditating, sometimes for one minute or for 30 seconds we sleep. Sometimes it is asleep, exactly we don't know. So how can we differentiate between the sleep as well as the total cessation of perception, feeling, and like that, nibbana? So what is the difference between these two? So that's what my doubt is.

Okay. The way to understand it is the effect of that process. So if the mind falls asleep, when you come back out the mind will feel hazy. It might feel dense, it might feel foggy, groggy, it might feel tired. There's not a lot of clarity in the mind, whereas when you experience something like a cessation event, the mind is very bright and uplifting and just clear. There's no resistance in the mind. So with sleep you will experience sloth and torpor as an effect. You'll experience the experience of feeling tired, or the experience of the mind unable to fully collect itself around an object. With cessation, after you come out of cessation, the mind is naturally just very elated, very bright, very clear. There's no going on.

Thank you, sir. Thank you. You're welcome. You. Anybody has any other questions? Okay, let's share some area. Maybe before we do that, not four hours, a little bit less, Delson will give his weekly Dhamma talk. And of course, you are all invited to join. If you don't have the Zoom link, for that, I can email it to you.

May suffering once be suffering free, and the fear-struck fearless be. May the grieving shed all grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power, share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. Thank you, Dalson. Thank you, thank you everyone very much. Thank you. I'll see you all virtually at your next interview. Take care.