Suttavada Foundation Online Retreat 17 Dec 2021 Many kinds of Feeling With Delson Armstrong

So today we're going to be talking about jhana, and we're going to be talking about the different elements of each of the jhanas and what the experiences are, and the co-factors and so on and so forth. But we're going to use a different sutta to talk about jhanas. Usually we go with Majjhima Nikaya 111, the Anupada Sutta, which really details out each of the jhanas with regards to Sariputta's journey through them. But I want to keep things a little more simple, and I don't want to bog down everyone with a lot of information today. Just get a sense of what it means to be in jhana, what are the different jhanas. One thing you should understand is that jhanas are basically an experience, a level of understanding, a level of realization, level of experience, and they are levels of cessation. So we talk about cessation in different ways. We have the cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness, which is the nirodha or nirodha samapatti, and then we have the cessation of dukkha, which is the cessation of suffering.

Or the nirodha of dukkha. But there's other ways of understanding cessation and degrees of cessation, which are experienced as you go through the levels of jhana, and we'll explore them as we read through this sutta. The sutta we're going to be reading today is Majjhima Nikaya 59, the Bahuvedaniya Sutta, The Many Kinds of Feeling. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Park.

Then the carpenter Panchakanga went to the venerable Udayin, and after paying homage to him, he sat down at one side and asked him, "Venerable sir, how many kinds of feeling have been stated by the Blessed One?" "Three kinds of feeling have been stated by the Blessed One, householder: pleasant feeling, painful feeling, and neither painful nor pleasant feeling. These three kinds of feeling have been stated by the Blessed One." "Not three kinds of feeling have been stated by the Blessed One, venerable Udayin. Two kinds of feeling have been stated by the Blessed One: pleasant feeling and painful feeling. This neither painful nor pleasant feeling has been stated by the Blessed One as a peaceful and sublime kind of pleasure."

A second time and a third time the venerable Udayin stated his position, and a second time and a third time the carpenter Panchakanga stated his. But the venerable Udayin could not convince the carpenter Panchakanga, nor could the carpenter Panchakanga convince the venerable Udayin. The venerable Ananda heard their conversation. Then he went to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him he sat down at one side and reported to the Blessed One the entire conversation between the venerable Udayin and the carpenter Panchakanga. When he had finished, the Blessed One told the venerable Ananda: "Ananda, it was actually a true presentation that the carpenter Panchakanga would not accept from Udayin, and it was actually a true presentation that Udayin would not accept from the carpenter Panchakanga. I have stated two kinds of feeling in one presentation. I have stated three kinds of feeling in another presentation. I have stated five kinds of feeling in another presentation. I have stated six kinds of feeling in another presentation. I have stated 18 kinds of feeling in another presentation. I have stated 36 kinds of feeling in another presentation. I have stated 108

kinds of feeling in another presentation. That is how the Dhamma has been shown by me in different presentations. When the Dhamma has thus been shown by me in different presentations, it may be expected of those who will not concede, allow and accept what is well stated and well spoken by others that they will take to quarrelling, brawling and disputing, stabbing each other with verbal daggers. But it may be expected of those who concede, allow and accept what is well stated and well spoken by others that they live in concord with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes."

So in other words, what the Buddha is saying is he's given different talks, and in different talks he's talked about the feelings in different ways. He's talked about feeling as being connected to the body and connected to the mind. He's talked about feeling as being painful, or pleasant, or neutral, neither painful nor pleasant. He's talked about feeling in reference to the three kinds of experiences of joy: joyful feeling, equanimous feeling, and greediest feeling. He's talked about feeling in the form of the feeling of the householder or the feeling of the bhikkhu. He's talked about feeling in reference to the sixth sense basis. He's talked about feelings in reference to the past, present and future, and so on and so forth. So it all depends upon the context, and all of them are right in their own way. It all depends upon what it is that you're trying to understand and resolve, in the way of your misunderstanding.

So when you come across somebody talking about the Dhamma, and it might be different from what other people might say or what another person has said, it's not necessary that they contradict one another. It's just that it's a different way of looking at the same thing. So feeling, or formations, or perception, or any of the things that the Buddha has talked about, and his arahant monks have talked about, or monastics have talked about, they might seem contradictory, or they might seem like they are talking about two different things. But really they might be pointing at the same thing from a different angle. It's like that imagery that you might have heard, and might have heard if you're familiar with certain philosophical concepts, where you have people who are either blind or blindfolded, and they go up and they're asked to describe an elephant, and each one

you know, one tugs at the tail, another tugs at the trunk, another sees or feels the legs of the elephant, and another feels the tusks, and they all say, "No, this is the elephant," or "The trunk is the elephant," or "The legs are the elephant." But in fact they're all pointing to the same thing. They're all part of the elephant. It just depends upon the perspective, what is exactly being trying to achieve in terms of understanding the Dhamma on a deeper level. So when it comes to discussions of deep Dhamma, when it comes to matters of deep Dhamma, it's best to just listen

and understand before allowing the mind to discard it without even taking into account what it's referring to. And so the Buddha continues: "Ananda, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure. What are the five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear. Odors cognizable by the nose. Flavors cognizable by the tongue. Tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure." Now, it can also talk about sensual displeasure that can provoke aversion. So there can be sounds that are disturbing to the ear, flavors that are uncomfortable to the tongue, odors that are disgusting to the nose, tangibles that are uncomfortable for the body, and disagreeable sights that are disagreeable to the eyes. Now, the pleasure and joy that arise dependent upon these five cords of sensual pleasure are called sensual pleasure.

So meaning the pleasure and the experience that you feel, the joy that you feel, that in itself is the sensual pleasure. That is to say, the eye sees something beautiful, and the feeling that arises, the experience of joy that arises, that elation, that horizon at seeing something that is agreeable, is that pleasure itself. It's not the eye, nor is it the object of the eye. The beautiful sight in itself is beautiful because the mind perceives it as beautiful. To another person it might seem displeasurable. Same with any of the objects of the sense bases, the five physical sense bases. So whatever arises in the way of feeling, or arises in the way of experiencing joy, that in itself is the pleasure that is born from the senses, born from the sensual objects. Should anyone say that this is the utmost pleasure and joy that beings experience, I would not concede that to him. Why is that? Because there is another kind of pleasure, loftier and more sublime than that pleasure. And what is that other kind of pleasure?

"Here, Ananda, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. This is that other kind of pleasure, loftier and more sublime than the previous pleasure." So what are the factors of the first jhana, secluded from sensual pleasures? In other words, the mind is no longer looking outward through any of the five cords, looking through the eyes, listening through the ears. And that doesn't mean that when you're in jhana you no longer have contact with the outside world.

Rather, it means there is no longer any interest given. There is no longer any attention given to the sounds outside. Obviously, if your eyes are closed, there's no attention given to the sights outside. There's no attention given to the smells that come, or the feeling that comes on the body. So the mind is not interested in any of that. Even though it might hear in the distance some kind of sound, the attention doesn't get scattered. The mind understands that there is sound, but it doesn't get attracted, nor does it get repelled by it, repulsed by it. Secluded from unwholesome states: what are unwholesome states? Unwholesome states are hindrances.

We talked about the different kinds of hindrances in yesterday's sutta, and we talked about the five main hindrances, that we understand, that is to say, sensual craving and aversion. Sensual craving arises in the same way you have pleasure for a sensory experience. Your mind becomes attracted to what it's hearing. Your mind becomes attracted to what it's smelling. Your mind becomes attracted to what it's tasting. Your mind becomes attracted to what it's feeling in the way of the body. Your mind becomes attracted to what it is seeing, and so on.

So sensual craving happens as a result of your attention no longer being on its object and getting scattered and moving towards the sense object. In this case it could be the sound, or the smell, or whatever it might be. The aversion that arises can be twofold. It can be because of a disagreeable sensual experience, or it could be because of something you're thinking about that makes you feel upset, that has annoyance.

Tied to it, it has frustration tied to it, it has irritation tied to it, it has anger tied to it, it has ill will tied to it, it has hatred tied to it. Anything that you think about or you experience in the way of your five physical senses, and you become upset by it, you become resistant to it. That means that your attention is actually on it, and you're trying to pull your attention back, but that's not going to work, because in the effort of trying to pull your attention back by resisting it, you're actually feeding more attention to it. So the logical way to do this, the way that it is done in accordance with the Eightfold Path, is to understand that there is a version present, recognizing the mind is scattered, and that it is scattered, and by being scattered it is no longer on its object. Recognizing that, releasing your attention from that, relaxing the mind and body

Coming back to the re-smile and then coming back to your object dimension. Then you have, as we talked about, restlessness, sloth and torpor, and doubt. Restlessness is anxiety and worry and agitation. It's when your mind tries too hard, when you try too hard, it causes that tension. It causes energizing thoughts, an activity and flurry of thoughts, and so you have to pull back a little bit: notice that the mind is scattered, release your attention from it, relax the mind and body, come back to the re-smile, and come back in a gentle, soft manner to your object of meditation. Sloth and torpor is the other way around. You're not having enough energy to be able to focus the lens on the object. You're not able to watch how mind is perceiving that object, therefore your mind becomes scattered.

Same thing: you use the 6R's and you come back. Doubt, as we talked about, is that process in which you have doubts about the practice, or doubts about what is wholesome or unwholesome, doubts about what is the Dhamma and what is not the Dhamma, and so on. So you recognize that your mind becomes flustered by that, release the attention from it. We relax, we smile, return, and repeat whenever necessary. So when you're secluded from sensual pleasures, that means you're no longer interested in them. Your mind is now inclining towards the object of meditation, in the mind it's coming towards the experience, the feeling. Now when you experience the physical sensation of warmth and so on and so forth, it's not actual physical warmth, it's the feeling, the mental experience of that fuzziness of the loving kindness that's there. So when you feel that, when you're experiencing that, that is purely a mental feeling, but it's felt as manifesting in the body as a warm feeling in the chest or a rising up into the head, or whatever it might happen.

So you're secluded from sensual pleasures means you're secluded from the five physical sense bases and their experiences. You're more looking at what's happening in the mind, because your mind becomes collected around its object. Secluded from unwholesome states means that your mind is collected, the attention is not scattered and therefore hindered by the hindrances that we spoke of. And so this first jhana is accompanied by applied and sustained thought. What does that mean? Applied and sustained thought, meaning thinking and examining thought. It's the application, initial application, of verbalizing.

When you say, "May I be happy, may I be well, may I be content, may I be free of suffering," or when you visualize something that is wholesome to bring up the feeling of loving kindness, that initial intentionalizing is the application of thought. And then putting your attention on it for some time is the sustained thought. Putting your attention there, placing it and keeping it there, is sustained thought. And this is accompanied by rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. That means now you're experiencing a joy and peace, a joy and comfort not of this world in the physical sense. Now you are in a super mundane world. A mundane world has to do with the five physical senses. Now you're experiencing pleasure that is not born from the sensual experiences.

You're experiencing pleasure because you're secluded from them, and you are starting to experience this method, and that is why it is more sublime than the previous pleasure. And that is why I also say that if you continue to be in jhana, if you continue to practice jhana, the mind automatically loses interest in sensual experiences. You don't have to suppress the desire for sensual experiences. You don't have to suppress the aversion and things like that. You see that there is a higher kind of pleasure that is not born from the sick, from the five sense spaces, the physical sense basis. There is a pleasure that is super mundane, out of this world. And that is to say, in the mind, should anyone say that is the utmost pleasure and joy that beings experience

Now obviously it will stop, but in the sense of if it continues to spin without any extra effort, that means there is no longer any application of further thought. There's no more sustenance of the initial thought to bring up that metta. Now the method is happening on its own, and now in this jhana your job is to just observe that method flowing in your heart and flowing outward to your spiritual friend, or flowing inside in your heart if you keep your spiritual friend in your heart. And so self-confidence means now everything is on autopilot, and all you're doing is just watching. You have complete confidence, this is feeling great, and you no longer have any doubts about the practice because now you see that this method is just going on. You don't have to do anything but pay attention to it. It is your attention, your observation to the metta, that fuels that metta to continue to flow. And that singleness of mind means that the mind is unified.

The attention is unified. It is no longer scattered, thinking about this or that. Even if there are background thoughts, background thoughts are not referring to applied or sustained thought. Background thoughts are just thoughts that arise due to certain formations; let those go. But the initial verbalizing is gone, which means what has ceased is the verbal formations. So in the first case, in the first jhana, what ceases is the interest in sensual experiences, what ceases are the hindrances. In the second jhana, what ceases is the initial application of thought, which is the verbalizing, the verbal formation sees here.

And then there is the rapture and pleasure born of collectedness. So now the joy deepens. You experience greater sense of joy, you experience greater tranquility in the body. Remember what I said yesterday: when you do experience this joy, don't allow the mind to divert to the experience of the joy. See that as just being a co-factor to the experience in the meditation. You stay with the object, which is the method. If you see that the mind starts to divert, that means it's no longer on its object, and eventually that joy will fade away, or whatever it might happen. It might even strengthen because of the attention, but now you become so super focused on that you've lost track of the meditation. So instead, when you see that the mind inclines towards the joy, see that as a distraction, let that go, recognize it, release it, relax, we smile, and return back to the metta and let that metta flow.

But if you recognize that there is joy, then you know that you're on the right track. But remember, you don't need to know what your jhana, what jhana you are in right now. All you need to know is what's going on in terms of how the mind comes back, how the mind gets distracted, how the attention comes from there and then comes back, goes to there and then comes back, using right effort, utilizing the Eightfold Path, namely right effort, to come back and understand how mind becomes collected. And then the Buddha says, "And what is that other kind of pleasure that is loftier than the second jhana, that is more sublime than the previous pleasure? Here, Ananda, with the fading away as well of rapture, of piti, of joy, a bhikkhu abides in equanimity, mindful and fully aware, and still feeling pleasure with the body. He enters upon and abides in the third jhana, on account of which noble ones announce, 'He has a pleasant abiding,' who has equanimity and is mindful. This is that other kind of pleasure, loftier and more sublime than the previous pleasure."

So what are the factors of the third jhana? Equanimity, tranquility. The joy fades away. Now that's why I'm saying, if you take the joy as the experience and it fades away, you become disheartened. Sometimes people experience the method in greater detail, and sometimes it fades away because they're mistaking the joy for the metta. The method will do what it does, but you're going to experience the fading away of joy, but you're still going to experience tranquility in the body. There'll still be the pleasure, that is to say ease and comfort, the sukha, the happiness connected to the body.

And so there'll be greater levels of tranquility, and you're going to start to cease any connection with the body. You're going to start to notice that you might only feel your arms and legs, you might only feel your hands, or you might start to notice that the metta is starting to move upward and it's starting to get closer up to the head, and you're starting to lose different parts of the body. You start to become a little more expansive. You start to lose contact with the body, but that doesn't mean that you suppress it, and you don't have any contact with the body. If a fly lands on your skin, you'll feel it. If you're meditating outside and there's a breeze, you'll feel it. If there's a sound in the distance, you'll experience that. If there's an odour, you'll experience that. So it's not a suppression of contact, it's just that contact becomes less interesting, and so there will be contact when contact arises. Otherwise there won't be. There'll just be an experience of the method.

And there is another kind of pleasure that is loftier and more sublime. Here, Ananda, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, if a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither pain nor pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity, this is that other kind of pleasure, loftier and more sublime than the previous pleasure. So here now you don't feel your body at all. Now the method seems to be experienced only in the head, and there's a greater expansion going on, and there's equanimity, complete balance of mind, very sharp mindfulness.

At this point in time the mind becomes so collected that it doesn't get disturbed. There's complete balance, and oftentimes you'll know a person has experienced the fourth jhana because they just feel neutral. They feel balanced. They feel everything is okay. There's nothing to do, there's nowhere to go, everything is just all right. So if you do experience the abandoning of pleasure and pain, that doesn't mean that something is wrong with you or something is wrong with what you're doing in the meditation. It's a natural progressive step towards nibbana, which is to say you're entering into the fourth jhana. And when you are in the fourth jhana, what ceases are bodily formations. Now, it's traditionally said that the fourth jhana is associated with the cessation of breathing in and out, because breathing in and out is one of the bodily formations, but really what it's talking about is that your mind becomes so collected, your body becomes so calm and clear, your mind becomes so calm and clear, that you don't pay attention to your breath anymore, or very little, hardly pay attention to any part of your breathing.

In fact, in this meditation you're not paying attention to it at all from the get-go, but this is one of the signs. But what it really means on a larger level is that you're losing awareness of the body and you're entering a more mental plane. From here on you will still be in the fourth jhana, and what you will experience are different levels of the fourth jhana, which are known as the ayatanas and sometimes experienced and understood as the arupa jhanas, the formless jhanas. And these are infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non-perception, which we'll get to. But what you have to understand is now there is no longer anything to do with feeling in the body. Now you are purely in the mental realm.

here ananda with the complete surmounting of perceptions of form that is to say the complete surmounting of this whole body now you're not perceiving the body anymore with the disappearance of perceptions of sensory impact there will still be contact but you're not interested in that end with non-attention to perceptions of diversity you're no longer at all no longer in the territory of paying attention to what's going on outside aware that space is infinite the bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of infinite space this is that other kind of pleasure loftier and more sublime than the previous pleasure here in infinite space the limit of compassion is infinite space so what's happening now is you've become what would be considered to be an advanced meditator and i'll explain why

Because now you go beyond the limit of loving kindness. Now the loving kindness changes in its quality. It becomes compassion, it becomes karuna, and it is a different quality. It is a softer version, let's say, of loving kindness. So you will notice that change. You don't need to make the change; you will notice it, and you will just see how it naturally changes. And here what you're doing now is you're going to be radiating the feeling of loving kindness in each direction, the six directions, and in all directions at the same time. After that, and when this happens, there is a level of spaciousness where you are no longer connected with your body. It feels like there is only space everywhere. There's only this infinitude of space, no boundaries, no borders, no limits.

And this expansive feeling is accompanied by that experience of compassion. And then there is another kind of pleasure that is more sublime. Here, Ananda, by completely surmounting the base of infinite space, aware that consciousness is infinite, the bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of infinite consciousness. This is that other kind of pleasure, loftier and more sublime than the previous pleasure. So consciousness is infinite, that is to say the base of infinite consciousness. There's a deeper understanding of this, just and just more than just saying that. Now the awareness becomes as infinite as the spaciousness.

Actually, at this point, not only does that happen, but now you see consciousness for what it actually is, that it is not this one unified, uniform, permanent, independent awareness or consciousness. Rather, just like the light that's hitting is made up of quadrillions and quintillions of individual photons that produce that ray of light, consciousness as you experience it is actually made up of iotas of consciousnesses arising and passing away in every moment. So when you have this experience, what happens is you have an experience of what is known as mudita. The compassion changes to altruistic joy. For the purposes of the meditation, the experience is a very subtle kind of joy.

It's a softer kind of joy, a more content kind of joy, and accompanied by that is this experience of flickers. Some people might experience flickers of the arising and passing away of eye consciousness. Some people might hear clicks, which is the arising and passing away of ear consciousness. Some people might experience phantom smells or tastes, which are the arising and passing away of nose and tongue consciousness. Some people might feel as if spiders are on their skin, or something is tingling on their skin; this is the arising and passing away of body consciousness. And some people might see thoughts, but they slow down. There's fragments, there's space between each of those thoughts. This is showing the arising and passing away of mind consciousness. So this, when I snap my finger, that is hundreds and hundreds of thousands of ear consciousness arising and passing away.

But it seems like it's just the sound of the snap that hits the ear, but in truth, in that moment there's the arising and passing away of the awareness of one sound or iota of sound, and then the next sound, and then the next sound, and the next sound of different sound waves that travel into the ear canal and are experienced by the nerve endings of the ear. Same with the eyes, the photons that hit the eyes. Same with the molecules that hit the tongue and hit the olfactory bulb. Same with the experience that is experienced by the sensors in the body, by the nerves in the body, and same in the brain, where there is processing going on when it comes to thoughts.

So consciousness is not one all-pervasive unit. It is made up of the arising and passing of consciousness, of different kinds of consciousnesses. And what that means is you start to see in that experience. You don't intellectualize it, you don't rationalize it. You are seeing for yourself in that moment, because your mind becomes super clear, super sharp, and super fine, to such a degree that it's able to actually see in that moment a slowing down of the consciousness arising and passing away. And in that process it's seeing for itself, experiencing in the here and now, impermanence of consciousness, and therefore it starts to get tired of this arising and passing away, because it continually sees this. And it sees for itself, in the here and now, the experience of dukkha, the unsatisfactory nature of all conditioned existence. And it sees that there's no controller here. You are not in control of any of the things that are happening in the body, any kind of involuntary jerks that are your experience, any kind of experience you're experiencing through the years. You cannot control that.

You cannot control what happens with regards to what kind of thought you're having. If you could, you could say, my next thought is going to be this, but you're only experiencing thoughts as and when they arise and pass away. Likewise for any of the experience of the other parts of the sixth sense basis. And what that means is this whole process is impersonal. There's no controller here. So anything you're experiencing in the way of the body, anything you're experiencing in the way of the jhanas, anything you're experiencing in the way of metta and compassion and joy and later equanimity, that's all a natural progression because of a series of causes and conditions that cause it. And so there's no you there. There's no personality there. It's just happening because of certain factors that give rise to it. Take away those factors and they're no longer there.

So you're seeing for yourself the experience of anatta, and eventually things start to slow down to such an extent that you start to notice the gaps in between one arising and passing away, and between one passing away and the next arising. And these gaps start to widen and widen and widen, and the arising and passing away slows down to a halt. Some people, what they experience are sometimes just flickers or stars or glimmers, and that's also an indication of infinite eye consciousnesses that you're experiencing. And eventually those stars or glimmers fade away, and all there is is this blank space, and that is the perception of nothingness, which we're going to get to now. And what is that other kind of pleasure that is loftier and more sublime than the previous? Here, Ananda, by completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness, aware that there is nothing, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness. This is that other kind of pleasure, loftier and more sublime than the previous pleasure. Now this nothingness is accompanied by the feeling of equanimity. Equanimity is much deeper, more balanced.

Now that joy ultimately fades into this feeling of complete balance, and the nothingness that you experience is basically where the mind becomes more inward, in of itself. The mind now turns in on itself. Another entry point into the experience of this plane of nothingness is to see the emptiness of self in all things. There was a practice that was done by Bhante, where he, for some time, thought about who is it that is experiencing these things, and he started to get into the impersonal nature of things, and he realized that this is all empty of self. Seeing the impersonal nature, the mind didn't become interested in anything, turned inward on itself, and experienced nothingness. This is another gateway into nothingness, because nothingness is associated with the understanding that there's nothing, no thing outside and no thing inside, that is considered to be a permanent, personal, all-abiding self. It's all arising and passing away. That realization gives rise to the perception of nothingness, and with that, this deep equanimity, that equanimity is experienced in the form of everything is fine.

there's nothing to worry about there's nothing to be there's nothing to do there's nothing there's absolutely no thing and so this perception of nothingness itself is not the object the perception of consciousness itself or the infinite consciousnesses are not the object the perception of infinite space itself is not the object these are all the background that happens when you take first the infinite uh sorry the compassion which is experienced in infinite space then you take the joy which is experienced in infinite consciousness and then you take the equanimity which is experienced in nothingness so in other words it's like the canvas is infinite space or infinite consciousness or nothingness but the paint strokes what is added to that canvas is the experience of compassion the experience of joy the experience of equanimity so keep that in mind don't allow the mind to become distracted

by the canvas it'll allow the mind to become distracted by the background of these experiences they are co-factors indicators side posts that let you know where you're headed which direction you're headed and what is the other kind of pleasure that is loftier and sublime then more sublime than the previous pleasure here ananda by completely surmounting the base of nothingness a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of neither perception nor non-perception this is that other kind of pleasure loftier and more sublime than the previous pleasure

neither perception nor non-perception what does that mean what happens is there comes a point where you're radiating equanimity so let me clarify first in the case of the compassion you continue to radiate that in infinite space then naturally that changes to joy which you continue to radiate naturally that changes to equanimity which you continue to radiate but there comes a point where the radiating stops and then you try to radiate again and then it continues on and you watch the radiating of the equanimity but it stops again you do it again but then there comes a point when you try to do it again there's a certain subtle tension and the mind is just content with not doing anything at all that mind is clear is complete collected completely collected that mind is quiet that mind is radiant that mind is tranquil this is what we refer to the quiet mind

and this quiet mind is what is then taken as an object it's like a translucent crystal ball it's like seeing through a very clear window there's nothing there at all but there's still this sense of collectedness going on and that in itself is the mind the observing mind itself is what is taken as the object because now you have gone beyond the brahma vihars and entered into the territory of neither perception nor non-perception and when you enter into this state what it feels like is the mind is asleep but awake at the same time it's like the mind is content and very much relaxed and it feels like it's asleep but there's alertness there there's a level of vibrancy there it's not energetic but it just is alert even though it feels like it's completely quiet and sleep and sometimes it might be dreamy

but it won't be groggy it won't be like slot and torpor slot and torpor you feel like you're losing awareness you feel like there's a dullness coming on here that dreaminess is sort of different formations formations here being the bubbling up of what would what could be thoughts or recognized as thoughts they're like disconnected patterns they might come in the form of shapes they might come in the form of some kind of thinking that's going on in the background but these are bubbling up and so it's not fully perception but it's not it's not non-perception either so there's no recognition of what kind of thoughts are arising but there is an awareness and understanding that there are some there's something arising and at this point the mind automatically lets go of them continues to six hour then relaxes and really releases and relaxes them

and so eventually there comes a point where the mind is utterly quiet and in this utterly quiet state there is just a feeling of the quiet mind there's no vibration there at all and at this point you'll be meditating for quite some time you'll be meditating for three hours four hours five hours six hours even and you might spend an entire hour with nothing going on might spend a couple of hours with nothing going on and this is where the risk of boredom comes into being comes into being that boredom arises because the mind is used to stimulus used to stimulation and then that boredom can manifest as restlessness or as slot and torpor when it arises as restlessness there might be a flurry of thoughts coming up and this is where you microdose the different enlightenment factors balancing act of the enlightenment factors

when you experience the restlessness at this point at the eight journal you start to relax to tranquilize bring in some tranquility you collect your mind around the quiet mind you have equanimity you pull back a little bit and now that restlessness fades away but when you have any kind of slot in corporate happening when you recognize it and you release it you let go of it and you relax you then bring in more focus bring in a little bit of joy micro doses of joy of interest a little bit of effort just tiny little intentions because the level of mind here is so subtle so impressionable

that just a tiny dose is enough to bring it back into balance you do a little bit more and you get into the side of restlessness bring a little too much joy bring a little too much effort and you start to bring in restlessness on the other side when you're restless bring in a little too much tranquility and you start to get into slot and torpor so just tiny amounts and wait and see what happens and you start to see the mind inclined towards balancing back to the quiet mind now there comes a point

where in this neither perception nor non-perception that because the quiet mind is so utterly quiet so utterly sublime without any vibrations at all that there is no more fuel for any arising of further feeling or perception and here is where you experience as we'll talk about the cessation of perception feeling and consciousness so the buddha says should anyone say that is the utmost pleasure and joy that beings experience i would not concede that to him why is that because there is another kind of pleasure loftier and more sublime than that pleasure and what is that other kind of pleasure here ananda by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception feeling and consciousness this is that other kind of pleasure loftier and more sublime than the previous pleasure

the cessation of perception feeling and consciousness arises because you have let go of the subtlest formations that have to do with the sense of the i am when there is no more vibration going on and the mind is utterly quiet no more fuel is given for further contact in the mind for feeling and perception to arise there is then cessation of that perception and feeling and that is the cessation of mental formations so in the first jana interest in sensual experiences cease to become withdrawn to the mind and its object of meditation the hindrances cease

then in the second jana verbal formation cease in the fourth jana bodily formations tied to the body cease and finally in cessation of perception and feeling and consciousness mental formation cease and at this point you don't even know that you're in that state until you come out of it it's a complete blip complete blank you don't even know that it's a blank you don't know what happens in that state and then you come out and you experience the unconditioned you make contact with the nirvana element you see the links that depend origination in one way or another and you experience total relief

you experience a feeling like as if a ton of bricks have been lifted off of your shoulders you have let go an ocean of suffering and you have experienced the attainment of stream entry When you experience this, you have not only attained Nibbana, but you have destroyed the first three fetters. Now you understand the impersonal nature of all things, so you no longer have a belief in a personal personality that is all abiding.

You no longer have doubt in that this is the path leading to the experience of Nibbana. and you no longer have any belief in rites and rituals and that they will take you you cut off the possibility of rebirth in any lower realm lower than the human plane of existence and when you experience this what you will see is that the colors some joy you might not even be able to sleep that night and that's okay you have a lot of joy you have a lot of energy and you experience like the greens of grass and trees and leaves are vibrant

the reds of roses the pinks of different flowers are vibrant the sky when you see the the clear blue sky is just just amazing azure bright clear bright blue just everything seems to be holographic everything seems to be hyper real hyper dimensional and this is because you have cut off the fetters and because in that in those moments the mind is completely clear the sharpness of the mindfulness is so clear that there's nothing impeding the senses in the way of whatever it is experiencing and when you report this what we will do is we will tell you all right go and sit back and do it again mine might not be inclined to do it but you do it again and the more you do it the more you experience these different cessations the higher attainments you have you'll experience the fruition of stream entry you'll experience sakatagami which is the weakening of sensual craving and the weakening of aversion when you become a sakatagami you'll have a little bit of craving arising but you'll be able to notice it much clearer and let it go

when you have the fruition of sakatagami it'll be set in stone that you have become a sakatagami when you have the attainment of the anagami you let go of even sensual craving and aversion it won't arise at all you won't have any fear in your mind arise anymore you won't have any irritation in your mind arising you won't have any interest in sensual pleasures anymore but you will still enjoy things it's not like you'll crave for them you'll still enjoy you know whatever your favorite food is you'll still enjoy whatever favorite movie you have you'll still enjoy whatever favorite piece of music you have whatever it is you'll still have enjoyment in in fact i would say you have more enjoyment in it because there's no longer this impedance of impediment of craving attached to it that it's going to get over you're experiencing in that moment in that present in the now whatever is experienced in that way of pleasurable feeling so when you experience the fruition of anagami you have confirmed for yourself that this is the case then you have the experience of arahatship where you let go of even conceit

which means you let go of complete interest. You have complete disinterest. You have no longer any craving to be something. You don't have any craving to be in a jhana or to be in a formless realm, to be in a form state or a formless state. You no longer have any restlessness, any kind of mental activity or agitation. But when you come back and sit down for meditation, you just sit and meditate. You don't have to take the few minutes or the few seconds to collect yourself and come back to the meditation moment. You direct your mind towards something and it is unimpeded by any barriers. And you've let go of conceit, which means you no longer identify with anything, and that means there is a level of clarity that doesn't impede your judgment. You're not clinging even to the Dhamma. And ultimately you have let go of ignorance, meaning there is complete mindfulness in every moment. Ignorance is the lack of mindfulness, the lack of understanding of the impersonal nature of things. It's the lack of understanding the four noble truths.

Now, you can see the four noble truths as a formula to be able to fix anything that happens in the way of conflict resolution. Or you understand the four noble truths as being there as an actual reality. You understand that there is dukkha. You abandon, you have abandoned, the craving and all of the hindrances and ignorance and conceit and all of the fetters that give rise to that dukkha. You have experienced nirodha and nibbana for yourself, and you have cultivated and perfected the eightfold path on the way to nibbana. Therefore, as an arahant, you then unlock the two paths, let's say, the path results.

in the eightfold path that becomes the tenfold path, which is right insight or right knowledge and right liberation. The right knowledge is the understanding and experience of the four noble truths. And that right release, that right liberation, is vimutti. That means you now know you will no longer come into any state of new being, any new rebirth. You have cut off completely, to say, the suffering that is related to the mind. You'll still feel pain. You'll still feel sick. You'll still age, but you won't get bothered by it. You won't have any inclination of trying to change things. You see things as they really are without projecting onto them any kind of personal ideas about what they are. You see reality for what it actually is.

This is known as yathabhuta nanadassana. So the Buddha says, it is possible, Ananda, the wanderers of other sects might speak thus: the recluse Gotama speaks of the cessation of perception and feeling and consciousness, and he describes that as pleasure. What is this? And how is this? Wanderers of other sects who speak thus should be told, friends, the Blessed One describes pleasure not only with reference to pleasant feeling. Rather, friends, the Tathagata describes as pleasure any kind of pleasure, wherever and whatever way it is found. And what this means is there is pleasure in the cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness, because it is the cessation of conditioned existence. It is coming to the experience of the unconditioned, and therefore it is the total cessation of dukkha, which is the highest pleasure, the pleasure of no feeling at all, no conditioned feeling at all.

That is what the Blessed One said. Venerable Ananda was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. What are the thought movements and life continuum? That's all Abhidharma stuff. It has nothing to do with the practice really. But you talk about thought moments, that's really talking about chitta, and life continuum is talking about bhavanga. That has to do with rebirth in the sense of the continuum from one moment to the next moment. But for the purposes of the practice, what you should understand is the arising and passing away of consciousnesses is giving insight for you: the experience, and the insight into anicca, into dukkha and into anatta. When you talk about rebirth, what you're talking about is the experience of how one thought can give rise to craving, and the craving, to that thought, can give rise to another birth on the macro level.

So I wouldn't concern the mind with that at all for the purposes of the practice. - I have a question, Delson. - Yes. So if I understood correctly, in order to go to first path, I can pass and so on, all we need to do is the jhanas and the meditation, the of the directions, and it will just come in time. Is that it? Yes. Now, I will say that it is easier to get into first path than it is to get into second path, obviously, but there is a very subtle reason for it. Because the first time you experience it, there's no expectation of what's going to happen.

There's no expectation of recognizing what is happening. But in the second path, the entry into the second path, there's a clear indication that, oh, here comes cessation of perception and feeling. And that anticipation itself prevents you, stops you from continuing further. So the attitude for all meditation practice should be, let's see what happens. And when you start to recognize and anticipate in the mind that this signpost is there, let go of it. See it as a hindrance and let go of it. There's a note here in the comments about precepts.

So it's not just about practicing the meditation, but it's also continuing to obviously keep and maintain the precepts. So, and that sensation happens in the eighth jhana. It can happen anytime, actually. Really? It can happen from the first jhana onwards. Your mind comes to a point where it completely lets go and switches off, and then comes back on. There was one person who was eating their food and they suddenly went into cessation, and then when the mind came back up, it experienced nibbana, and it experienced the entry into second again. So it can happen at any point in time. There are people who have been washing the dishes and suddenly their mind became very quiet, so they decide to stop and sit down for a while, and it just entered into cessation of perception. So it seems like it's a good thing to make your meditation sessions very long, so you can go deep into the jhanas? Is that correct? Yeah, and I would not push. That's why during the retreat you'll notice

that's why during retreat you'll notice that I just give you and I say, okay, meditate for another half hour, or meditate for another hour. Build up your capacity to meditate for longer periods of time. Three hours and more is the best. When I was in Dhamasuka and I was listening to Bhante when he was doing the interviews, he would say, two hours is good, three hours is better, four hours is even better. So you could see the resistance in the other person's face when he said that, because he was indicating, it was hinting, if you sit for longer periods of time there is the capacity for cessation to happen. But there is a natural resistance in the mind thinking, how could I do that? So you build yourself up in this way, and you let go of any attachments or any hindrances or any aversion towards trying to sit for longer periods. Okay, thank you.

Eric, you had a question. It kind of actually answered it. It was about cessation, can it happen anytime? But I have a, in one of the talks I listened to with Bhante, he spoke about this equanimity to formations that they speak about in Mahasi, and he said that I kind of understood it, that it's not the right cessations, or if you have cessations in that tradition it doesn't lead to the same thing. I don't know. I would replace that understanding, because what Bhante is pointing out to is actually what I should have covered in the jhana, which is the experience of disenchantment and dispassion.

So what you're experiencing is when the formations arise, you become disenchanted with them. Disenchantment means, like for example, say you eat your favorite dish, your all-time favorite dish, and you really enjoy it and you really relish it. And then somebody makes you a second portion and you enjoy it, but you don't enjoy it as much the second time around. The third time around somebody gives it to you and now you become sick of it. But what changed? It's the same favorite meal of yours. What changed is you had disenchantment for that. You've already experienced it and you've done away with it. You don't want any more to do with it. It's not a resistance, it's not an aversion. It's just complete contentment, complete satisfaction, that you no longer are bothered.

So you're disenchanted by these formations that arise, and then that leads to a level of deeper disenchantment, which is dispassion. That dispassion is known as viraga, which is complete disregard, let's say, for what's happening. It's just a deeper level of equanimity. So disenchantment is a lower, or let's say a higher level of equanimity, in the sense that it is a deeper level, but you're getting lower and lower in terms of mental activity. And dispassion takes that a hundredfold. And then that leads to the experience of cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness. So this dispassion also has to do with the cessation, or the disinterest, in the sense of 'I am'. The formations related to conceit that arise and give rise to the sense of 'I am', that too is completely disregarded. And when that's completely disregarded, there's only this quiet mind for quite a long time, because there's no more fuel given for further feeling and perception.

That also feeds in to their cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness. I have another question. Yes. So, and we don't need to think too much about the jhanas, right? We just let things unfold on their own? Exactly. Okay, this is just giving you a kind of a map. This is giving you a roadmap of what you could expect. But at the same time, you don't need to worry about where you're headed. You just continue down the path and you will see. So when you start to experience infinite space, and you start to experience infinite consciousness, you'll realize and recognize, oh, this is what is being talked about in the suttas. And you see for yourself with direct experience.

- I don't need to decide, oh, I want to go to the next gen or something like that. - At this point, at this point now, at this point. - Okay, you can do it. - You can do it after you master the jhanas. - Okay, okay. - It's known as determinations, yeah. - All right, thanks. - Delson, I assume you're also familiar with the 16 Nyanas from the Visuddhi Magga, basically the roadmap that is used in the Mahasi tradition. - Yeah, I know a little bit of it. Not so much, but I do recognize some of the things that might be talked about there. - I was curious how they compare according to you, but maybe you're not.

I don't see them as necessarily being compatible, but I do see signatures of it in one way or another in terms of the experience, like for example the experience of mind and body, or the knowledge of mind and body, or the knowledge of arising and passing away, or the knowledge of the equanimity of formations, or the knowledge of fear. Fear is something that does arise, especially when you come towards cessation. That's because that sense of self is trying to grapple the last remnants before it sinks into cessation, perception, feeling. So they are compatible in one way but not necessarily in the way that people normally experience them. But your question about it, was there a further question about it?

Well, I guess it's just speculation, but my understanding is that fourth jana is kind of where is compared to the 11th nana, the equanimity nana, or equanimity towards the formations, and then everything beyond that, the jhanas, five, six, seven, eight, all plays out inside that 11th nana, right? The way I see that is the same way I explained that: in the fourth jhana there is only the fourth jhana. Beyond that there is just if the ayatanas, which are within the fortune. So even if you are in nothingness or in either perception and non-perception, you're still in the fourth jhana. These are like parts of the spectrum within the fourth jhana, so the fourth jhana is the foundation on which then the experience of infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, neither perception non-perception, our experience.

Thank you. Anyone else? Okay, let's share some merit. May suffering ones be suffering free, and the fear-struck be fearless; may the grieving shed grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired, for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power, share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. Thank you.