MN 109 : The Greater Discourse on the Full-Moon Night - Delson Armstrong

So let me get started. Today we're going to be going over a sutta that is from the Majjhima Nikaya. This is Majjhima Nikaya 109, and it's known as the Maha Poonama Sutta, the greater discourse on the full moon night. So I'll begin. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savati in the Eastern Park, in the palace of Migara's mother.

On that occasion, upon the Upasatha day of the 15th, on the full moon night, the Blessed One was seated in the open, surrounded by the sangha of bhikkhus. Then a certain bhikkhu rose from his seat, arranged his upper robe on one shoulder, and, extending his hands in reverential salutation towards the Blessed One, said to him: "Venerable sir, I would ask the Blessed One about a certain point. If the Blessed One would grant me an answer to my question." "Sit on your own seat, bhikkhu, and ask what you like." So the bhikkhu sat on his own seat and said to the Blessed One: "Are these not, venerable sir, the five aggregates affected by clinging? That is, the material form aggregate affected by clinging, the feeling aggregate affected by clinging, the perception aggregate affected by clinging, the formations aggregate affected by clinging, and the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging. These, bhikkhu, are the five aggregates affected by clinging."

"That is, the material form aggregate affected by clinging, the feeling aggregate affected by clinging, the perception aggregate affected by clinging, the formations aggregate affected by clinging, and the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging." "Saying, 'Good, venerable sir,' the bhikkhu was delighted and rejoiced in the Blessed One's words. Then he asked him a further question: "But venerable sir, in what are these five aggregates affected by clinging rooted?" "These five aggregates affected by clinging are rooted in desire." He could so what the Buddha is saying is the way beings have come to be is through desire, is through craving, aversion and identification. Whether you see it on the micro level or on the macro level, it is craving itself that continues to spin the wheel of samsara. On the macro level it is the craving for being, or the craving for sensual experience, or even the craving to not become something.

Is what brings forth certain kinds of formations that the mind clings to, and the fuel of those formations creates, for that final time in that particular life, a new consciousness. And that new consciousness, that has been subjugated by craving, that has been affected by craving, by clinging and craving, then establishes itself in a new nama-rupa. That's on the macro level when we talk about rebirth. But even on the level of day-to-day living, if you think about, if you reflect on all of the things that you do throughout your day, they are motivated more or less by either some kind of sensual craving, or craving to be something or to do something, or craving to not be something or not to do something. The form aggregate is affected by clinging. That, affected by clinging, is rooted in desire, because there is the nutriment of food that is dependent upon craving, that continues to strengthen the body, strengthen form. Contact gives rise to feeling, contact gives rise to perception, contact gives rise to intention,

and consciousness is dependent upon the mind and body. So these nutriments, which are affected or dependent upon craving, continue to fuel samsara through the experience of the five aggregates, and we'll explore this even deeper in a little bit. "Venerable sir, is that clinging the same as these five aggregates affected by clinging, or is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates affected by clinging?" "Bhikkhu, that clinging is neither the same as these five aggregates affected by clinging, nor is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates affected by clinging. It is the desire and lust in regards to the five aggregates affected by clinging. That is the clinging there."

In other words, what the Buddha is saying is that the clinging is not the same as the five aggregates affected by clinging, because once you let go of the craving and clinging, the five aggregates are there, but they're no longer affected by clinging, by craving. So it's not the same as the five aggregates. But the clinging and craving cannot be something separate from the five aggregates. If it was, then it would be a sixth aggregate that one can just let go of, and then there is no more. But rather, as the Buddha says, it is the desire and lust in regards to them.

When we talk about being, when we talk about bhava, when we talk about existence, what is the definition of a being? The definition of a being is whenever there is any kind of identification, in the form of taking something personal, having aversion for or against, or having craving for, in relation to the five aggregates, there is said to be being. That's why when the arahant relinquishes craving altogether, relinquishes being altogether, and relinquishes ignorance altogether, they no longer identify. There is no longer any identification process with any of the five aggregates. And for that reason it is said that being is there is no more renewal of being. There is no coming into any new state of becoming, because being is fueled by identifying with any of the five aggregates. So once that is gone, then there is no longer any further existence.

Any furthering of existence, any further rebirth. "But venerable sir, can there be diversity in the desire and lust regarding these five aggregates affected by clinging?" "There can be, bhikkhu." The Blessed One said: "Here, bhikkhu, someone thinks thus: 'May my material form be thus in the future. May my feeling be thus in the future. May my perception be thus in the future. May my formations be thus in the future. May my consciousness be thus in the future.' Thus there is diversity in the desire and lust regarding these five aggregates affected by clinging." In other words, when you are dissatisfied with the present moment and you identify with it and say, 'I don't like the way this form is, may it be something else,' or 'I don't like what I'm feeling right now, I don't like this idea or this concept, there's disharmony with it,' or 'I didn't mean to do it this way,' or 'I hope my intentions will be different next time,' or even, the awareness is taking to be self, and one says, 'I hope I have a different kind of awareness next time.'

That is the diversity. The diversity here means that the desire and lust, or the craving, is not just one thing. It is divided amongst each of the five aggregates. "But venerable sir, in what way does the term aggregates apply to the aggregates?" "Bhikkhu, any kind of material form whatever, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, this is the material form aggregate."

Whether you're thinking about the past, whether you're thinking about the future, whether you're thinking about now, in relation to your body or in relation to form, that is part of the material form aggregate. Whether you're thinking internally, in terms of what's happening to your body, or externally, in terms of what's happening to your body. Whether you're thinking about it at the level of the gross body, that is to say the muscles and the sinews and the skin and so on, or the subtle, that is to say inside, in relation to the circulation or the breathing, or even simpler than that. Inferior or superior, whether you think it's weak or strong, whether you think it's a body that has lust or a body that doesn't have lust, whether you think it's a body that is experiencing wholesome or unwholesome, and so on. Far or near, whether you're thinking about this body here and now, or you're thinking about it at some other date in time, in some other place.

All of that encompasses the material form aggregate. Likewise, any kind of feeling whatever, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, this is the feeling aggregate. Whatever kind of perception whatever, or any kind of perception whatever, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, this is the perception aggregate. Any kind of formations whatever, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, this is the formations aggregate. Any kind of consciousness whatever,

whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, this is the consciousness aggregate. Now, what are these aggregates really, in terms of understanding them through the way we experience feeling and perception? When we talk about the form aggregate, that has to do with all the different states of matter, or in the ancient days it was understood as the four elements. That is to say, you have solid, which is earth; you have liquid, which is water; you have gaseous, which is air; and you have plasma, which is fire, in other words energy or heat. So when you feel softness or hardness in the body, whether you feel warm or cold, and so on, these all relate to the different various elements or states of matter. So when we talk about the form aggregate, it is actually talking about materiality, mentality, materiality. When we talk about the feeling aggregate, that has to do with the experience that you're having right now through the sixth sense spaces,

through the sixth sense spaces there is contact, and that contact gives rise to feeling. That feeling can be a sensation of any of the five physical senses, or a thought or thinking process of the mind. That is the feeling aggregate. Perception arises in conjunction with feeling. Perception arises dependent upon contact with the sixth sense basis. Perception is that part of the mind which recognizes, or conceptualizes, or labels, or names things. When you hear my voice, that is the hearing, that is a feeling. When you recognize it as my voice, as Delson's voice, that is the perception aspect of the mind.

Formations are related to intention. We have three specific kinds of formations when we talk about formations in this context. There are physical formations, or bodily formations. There are verbal formations, and there are mental formations. Bodily formations have to do with movement, have to do with breathing, because they're tied up in the body. Verbal formations have to do with verbalizing, where you think about something and you express it in speech. Mental formations have to do with feeling and perception, of themselves, because it is only through feeling and perception, or rather it is only through the mind, that you have an experience of feeling and perception. Granted, they happen through any of the five physical sense bases, let's say, but ultimately they are experienced at the level of mind. That's why they are known as mental formations. The consciousness aggregate has to do with the awareness of something, the bare understanding of something as being present. So when you have an experience right now, there is, for example, you are seeing me, when you're listening to me.

So am I arising in that process of seeing? And in that process of hearing, is "I" consciousness and your consciousness, as you're reflecting and thinking about this or that, or hopefully paying attention to what I'm saying, and reflecting on that. Then there is mind consciousness that arises based on that reflection. So, like I said, with regards to the form aggregate.

That is the materiality. The other four aggregates: feeling is part of feeling and mentality. Perception is part of perception in mentality. Formations are part of intention in mentality. And consciousness is part of attention in mentality. So contact is what allows, is the bridge, let's say, between materiality and mentality. It's the contact between the sixth sense basis, which is part of them, which is part of the materiality, contact with that and the outside world. That gives rise then to feeling and perception, and that can then give rise to an intention. So feeling is corresponding to the feeling aggregate, perception is corresponding to the perception aggregate, and intention is corresponding to the formations aggregate.

If you want to understand the quality of the formations, if they're wholesome or unwholesome, pay attention to your choices, pay attention to your decisions, pay attention to your intentions, because there is an interconnection between intention and formations. Intention drives forward the formations, and then those formations continue to influence and condition the next set of intentions. In any given moment, attention is the way through which consciousness flows. If you're directing your attention this way, the consciousness or the awareness is heading in that direction. So sometimes you might not be paying attention to the outside world while you're meditating, but you're paying attention to your object in meditation, so your consciousness is in flow with that object in meditation. As soon as you pay attention to what's going on outside, in terms of what sounds are out there, now the attention is flowing outward, and so along with it your consciousness flows. So this is how the different factors of mentality and materiality correspond with the five aggregates.

So, as we understand, materiality, the material aspects of the body, are made up of the states of matter, or made up of the four great elements. Contact gives rise to feeling. Contact is the cause and the condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate. If contact gives rise to feeling, in conjunction to that it will also give rise to perception that's tied to that feeling. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the formations aggregate, when there is contact with light and the eye, and one sees a pathway, and there is an intention based upon that contact and seeing that pathway to walk along it. So that is why contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the formations aggregate, when there is an intention that gives rise to certain formations, which flow through that intention. Mentality and materiality is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate. There is an interdependency,

a vortex between, or that is created between, mentality, materiality and consciousness. First and foremost, when it comes to the macro level of birth, when there is consciousness along with other factors, then there is mentality and materiality that is given life through that consciousness. But for that consciousness to continue on arising and passing away, it can only do so dependent upon mentality and materiality. So that's why there is that interdependency. "Venerable sir, how does identity view come to be here?" "Bhikkhu, an untaught ordinary person who has no regard for noble ones, and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men, and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards material form as self, or self as possessed of material form, or material form as in self, or self as in material form. He regards feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. Perception as self, or self as possessed of perception, perception as in self, or self as in perception. Formations as self, formations as possessed of self, self as possessed of formations,

or formations as in self, or self as in formations. Consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. This is how identity view comes to be." What we're talking about are the 20 different types of identity view. You have the five aggregates multiplied by the four basic views, which is any of the five aggregates as self, or self as possessed of the five aggregates, or any of the five aggregates as in self, or self as in any of the five aggregates. When there is a reckoning in this way, the mind perceives any of these five aggregates in any of these ways in regards to self, there's identity view. There is sakkaya-ditthi, which is one of the fetters, the first fetter that is destroyed when one becomes a stream enterer, when one becomes a sotapanna. "But venerable sir, how does identity view not come to be here?" "Bhikkhu, a well-taught noble disciple

always fulfilled, and therefore that can be considered as self. Well, first of all, if we see material form, we see material form as always changing. We see material form as always changing in one way or another. If that's the case, then it is impermanent, and when material form changes it can cause happiness or it can cause unhappiness, and unhappiness is dukkha, and so it cannot be considered as self. Likewise, if material form is impermanent and liable to cause dukkha, you can't say that there is a self that is possessed of material form. If you were to say that, then you're saying that there is a self beyond material form, and that the self is outside of the scope of material form.

That is another understanding of one of the ancient Indian philosophies. But if you would take that into account, then how is that self experienced? Because any experience that arises is dependent upon contact, dependent upon some kind of contact between the sixth sense basis, and therefore causing some kind of experience, some kind of sensation or feeling. If that self is considered to be an experience that is outside of the scope of material form or any of the aggregates, how is it experienced? It cannot be experienced outside of dependent origination. And if that's the case, then it is dependent, not independent, which is considered a self. The self in that specific understanding of self is independent of causes and conditions.

So they cannot be said to be a self outside of the scope of the five aggregates. Once you understand this, you can also see that there can't be a self in material form, and there can't be a material form within self, and so on. We take feeling. Feeling, being dependent upon contact, is impermanent, and some feeling is wholesome and some feeling is unwholesome. Some feeling is painful and some feeling is pleasant, and if something is painful or something is pleasant and changes to painful, it is impermanent and therefore liable to cause dukkha, and therefore it cannot be considered as self in any of those four viewpoints. In regards to feeling, perception tied to feeling is also impermanent and therefore liable to dukkha. Formations continue to change in every single moment; they arise and pass away dependent upon intention, and then that intention arises dependent upon contact. So that too, being impermanent and therefore liable to cause dukkha, cannot be considered to be self in any of the four viewpoints. Likewise, consciousness is dependent upon mentality and materiality

and consciousness arises dependent upon contact with the sixth sense bases. In other words, when you are seeing me, there is the image of me hitting, in terms of the photons, your retina, and the joining of those two, that is the contact which gives rise to eye consciousness. Likewise with the other six, the other five senses as well as the mind. So if you see consciousness as being dependent upon contact, dependent upon mentality and materiality, it continues to arise and pass away in every given moment. Therefore it cannot be considered as that self, that specific understanding of self, in any of the four viewpoints. And so that is how identity view does not come to be.

"What, venerable sir, is the gratification? What is the danger? And what is the escape in the case of material form? What is the gratification? What is the danger? What is the escape in the case of feeling? In the case of perception? In the case of formations? In the case of consciousness?" "The pleasure and joy, bhikkhu, that arise in dependence on material form, this is the gratification in the case of material form. There can be pleasure in material form that is dependent upon material form. But material form is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change. This is the danger in the case of material form. Since it is always changing, you cannot take it to be self.

Since it always, not always, but because of the fact that it is changing and impermanent, it can be painful and subject to change, it should not be considered as self, and that is the danger. The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust from material form, this includes the identification and aversion, this is the escape in the case of material form. Likewise, the pleasure and joy that arise in dependence on feeling, in dependence on perception, in dependence on formation, in dependence on consciousness. This is the gratification in the case of any of these five aggregates.

These five aggregates are impermanent, suffering, and subject to change. This is the danger in the case of these aggregates. The removal of desire and lust. The abandonment of desire and lust for any of these five aggregates. That is to say, not identifying with any of them is the escape in the case of these five aggregates. So what is that escape exactly? It is seeing that there is an experience happening, whether it is pleasant or painful or neutral, whatever the experience is, but having complete mindfulness to understand it as being impermanent, as being liable to cause suffering, and therefore should not be considered as self. That immediately prevents any arising of any kind of underlying tendency towards craving, underlying tendency towards aversion, underlying tendency towards ignorance, underlying tendency towards doubt, underlying tendency towards conceit, and underlying tendency towards papanca, and underlying tendency towards views.

When those underlying tendencies don't arise, there won't be the link of craving that will arise. And therefore, that is the escape in relation to these aggregates, not identifying with them, not taking them personal, seeing them as impersonal in every single moment. And for that to happen you need exceptional mindfulness. You need to have yoniso manasikara, you need to have attention rooted in reality. And how do you cultivate that exceptional mindfulness? Practice continually, practice right effort, continually be aware of what's going on in relation to your mind, in relation to other things that are happening, and see if there is craving or identifying going on. If there is, 6R it. Every time you 6R it, you strengthen your mindfulness.

Every time you strengthen your mindfulness and it gets sharper, you escape from the dangers of these five aggregates. That is to say, you remove the underlying tendency towards desire and lust, towards aversion and identification and so on in relation to these five aggregates. Venerable sir, how does one know, how does one see, so that in regard to this body with its consciousness and all external signs, there is no eye-making, mind-making, and underlying tendency to conceit? Bhikkhu, any kind of material form whatever, whether past or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, one sees all material form as it actually is with proper wisdom: thus this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself.

Any kind of feeling, any kind of perception, any kind of formations, any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, one sees all of them as they actually are with proper wisdom: thus this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself. It is when one knows and sees thus that in regard to this body with its consciousness and all external signs there is no eye-making, mind-making, or underlying tendency to conceit. Again, this is dependent upon mindfulness. Seeing this whole process as being an impersonal process allows the mind to let go of any conceptualizing of it as me, mine or myself, and when that happens you are whittling away at the underlying tendency to conceit.

So see everything as being impersonal, seeing everything as not me, not mine, not myself. Nothing is yours, nothing is ours. This body, the experiences that you're having, this Dhamma talk, what you're experiencing right now in the form of reflection, what you're experiencing in the form of meditation, what you're experiencing in the form of nibbana, and what you're experiencing in any kind of experience whatever it is, it is not self. Your kids, your parents, your husband, your wife, your partner, your friends, your enemies, your teachers, your elders, your relatives,

everybody and everything that you see, your job, your workplace, your co-workers, your school, your education, all of these create a sense of an image of me. And when that image of me is somehow made to feel vulnerable, only because you identify with all of these things, is there a tendency to defend it? Is there a tendency to grab onto it? Is there a tendency to protect it? Somebody says something about you or your job or whatever it might be, good, bad or indifferent. The moment you have elation for it, you're identifying with it. Or if somebody says something bad and you get angry about it, you're identifying with it. Somebody says something neutral but you're still seeing it as myself, you're identifying with it, and you're strengthening that conceit. Let go of any kind of image of yourself, let go of any kind of source of identification, and see everything as being impersonal, and you will whittle away at the underlying tendency to conceit. Then, in the mind of a certain bhikkhu, this thought arose:

obtuse and ignorant even worse with his mind dominated by craving might think that he can outstrip the teacher's dispensation thus so it seems form is not self feeling is not self perception is not self formations are not self consciousness is not self what self then will actions done by the not self effect now because you have been trained by me through interrogation on various occasions in regard to various things because what do you think is material form permanent or impermanent impermanent venerable sir is what is impermanent suffering or happiness suffering venerable sir is what is impermanent suffering and subject to be subject to change fit to be regarded thus this is mine this i am this is myself

no venerable sir so in other words what the buddha is saying if something is impermanent it is inherently suffering even if it's good because it is liable to change and if what is considered to be self uh suffering and impermanent and changing all the time how can that be considered as mine me or myself it cannot be likewise because what do you think is feeling perception formations consciousness permanent or impermanent impermanent venerable sir is what is impermanent suffering or happiness suffering venerable sir is what is impermanent suffering and subject to change fit to be regarded this is mine this i am this is myself no venerable sir therefore bhikkhus any kind of material form whatever whether past future or present all material form should be seen as it actually is with wisdom proper wisdom thus this is not mine this i am not this is not myself any kind of feeling whatsoever any kind of perception formations or consciousness all should be seen as they actually are with proper wisdom thus this is not mine this i am not this is not myself so what the buddha is talking about is even karma itself

is not experienced by any kind of self. It is happening because of a series of causes and conditions, dependent upon intention. Intention can change all the time, therefore karma changes all the time. If you look at it from the context of old karma and new karma, karma is always changing. Your new karma in this moment will be the old karma in any other subsequent moment, so that means it will always change. There's no self that is being experienced in the way of karma and there is no self that is experiencing that karma, although the mind takes it to be as mine. Indeed, even the Buddha has said that you should see yourselves as inheritors of karma, and what he means by that is not to take it as self but to understand that we are responsible for our own actions.

Our intentions are responsible for whether we have wholesome karma or unwholesome karma. So any karma that you inherit in the way of old karma, good, bad or indifferent, wholesome or unwholesome or neutral, is seen as just old karma, and therefore to be seen as not me, not mine, not myself. The moment you see it, you don't take it personal. When you don't take it personal, you don't have a reaction to it. When you don't have a reaction to it, there is no underlying tendency towards craving, aversion, identification or any of the other underlying tendencies. When those don't arise, there is no craving or aversion in regard to that experience. When that happens, there is no new karma that is propagated because of that reaction. So anything you see in the way of your meditation, in the form of your meditation as a hindrance, see it to be old karma, because of things you may have done or not done in reference to the precepts.

and seeing them as old karma you see them as not me mine or myself seeing it in that way you don't care about them you have disenchantment for them you let them go you six are them every time you six are whether it's meditation or in your daily living you are letting go of old karma and it it might arise again but it will be weaker and eventually it will fade away but you won't propagate any new karma that will be considered as old karma in a subsequent future moment so seeing thus the buddha says a well-taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with material form disenchanted with feeling disenchanted with perception disenchanted with formations disenchanted with consciousness

What is disenchantment? Disenchantment is like that experience where you have your favorite meal made by whoever it might be, you know, world famous chef or your mother or whoever it might be, that makes your favorite kind of food, and it's like the most well-prepared version of your favorite kind of food, and you relish it, and you have craving for it, and you eat it, and then you want more of it, and there's a second helping, and you have more of it, and there's a third helping, you have more of it, and there's a fourth helping. By the third or fourth or fifth time you're to say, I don't want it anymore, I don't like that, and now it's turned into a version. But when you see it, there's no longer craving for it. You see it as being something not to be attached to. There is the disenchantment. Another way of understanding disenchantment is when you get tired of any kind of experience. It's that attitude of been there, done that. So what? Okay, here's a hindrance. So what? 6R it, let it go. Okay, here are formations. So what?

Release and relax and come back to your object. Of quiet mind, being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. So you have equanimity, then you have disenchantment, which is equanimity squared, and then you have this passion, which is equanimity cubed. This passion is basically that part of the mind, or that experience, which, having seen things as they really are, no longer cares for them and sees them for what they really are. And because of seeing it for what it really is, in the form of being impersonal, there's no reaction to them. This passion is non-reactivity to an experience, whether it's in the form of a hindrance in the meditation or in the form of a pleasant, painful or neutral feeling. This passion means you're seeing it as it actually is. You're having attention rooted in reality. When that happens, you no longer feed that experience with your reactivity. You respond in a wise manner. But when you are dispassionate, as the Buddha says, through dispassion the mind is liberated.

So when you have that experience of dispassion in deep meditation, letting go of attachment to any and all formations, then, because no more fuel for mental formations arise, there is no more feeling and perception, and you experience the cessation of perception and feeling. Consciousness comes back up. You have the experience of the unconditioned, and the mind is liberated. When it is liberated, there comes the knowledge that it is liberated. This is the experience of knowledge of freedom, knowledge and vision, that the mind is liberated. He understands birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being. That is what the Blessed Ones said. Because we're delighted, satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. Now, while this discourse was being spoken

through not clinging, the minds of 60 bhikkhus were liberated from the taints. I wonder how many minds today have been liberated from the taints because of this discourse. Does anybody have any questions? Yes. Is it fair to say that the 6R's are a process of disenchantment? The 6R's allow you to experience equanimity, disenchantment and dispassion in a step-by-step approach. So the six R's are really right effort, and right effort is the heart of the Eightfold Path. So every time you practise right effort, you are experiencing or cultivating mindfulness.

When you have that exceptional mindfulness, the next time something arises you have the natural dispassion or disenchantment that arises, meaning now you've seen it for what it actually is, so you're no longer bothered by it, whether it's in the meditation or in your daily living. So the six R's facilitate the process of deeper mindfulness, and therefore equanimity, and therefore disenchantment. This passion. Delson, if I may, can you speak on the great difference between craving to be, let's say, a stream enterer or sakadagami or anagami or whatever, the difference between that and that, and pointing the mind with an intention to a wholesome state?

Yeah. So that pointing of the mind to a wholesome state is chanda. And that is just the initial application of mind, placing its attention on something and letting go of the attachment to the outcome of what that can create. The attachment to the outcome of what that jhana can produce, or the attachment to the outcome of what that meditation can bring, is the craving to become, is the craving to be. So when you place your mind initially, that is a wholesome desire, that is chanda, to cultivate an intention to say, okay, I am meditating.

But in order to counterbalance the craving for becoming, you have the attitude of, let's just see what happens in the meditation, rather than saying, I'm going to anticipate that I'm going to get stream entry in this meditation or I'm going to get to this jhana in this meditation. You're just letting the mind do what it's doing and you're just being there in that moment. Anytime you're not in the moment and you're wanting to do something with that moment, there is craving to become. There's craving to... thank you. I also have another question. Last night in the Dhamma talk we were basically going over videos that you've had from previous online retreats, and there was a question that I found quite interesting, and I'm going to re-pose the question. So, in this process

there are other individuals that are affected by the individuals that are going through this process, right? And some might see this as negative to other individuals outside of their circle, right? Or within their circle. Let's say a family member. Let's say an individual starts going through this process and they become more disenchanted. Let's say, right now we're covering this, right? They become more disenchanted with intimacy, with interactions with an individual, because they might seem like they're a bit much, or they see dependent origination within them constantly happening, so they get disenchanted with that. The question, I think, was, can there be a negative reaction to how this person is doing? And I understand that.

My question is, those individuals, I guess there should, when one is going through this, they become much more compassionate, and that compassion, typically I would think, would overcome a lot of these obstacles that happen with these engagements. However, there does seem to be some people. Let's say there's a relationship, and there's that great sutta that Bhante Vimalaramsi has brought up several times, where the wife becomes an arahant bhikkhuni, right? And there was a lack of intimacy that happened there. Fortunately, both individuals in that story were followers of the Buddha, Buddhist, right? And they, and she became a bhikkhuni. But what happens if that wasn't the case, right? And I guess what that one person was asking is, how can we be more compassionate and mindful with what other people are reacting? Can there be a wholesome intention there, so that there is no, that the karmic experience would be positive, hopefully?

Yeah, first we have to understand when we talk about being compassionate, what does that mean? The experience of compassion is accompanied by an experience of infinite space, which means even in the day-to-day living you're giving that person space to be however they are, good, bad and neutral. So when it comes to karma and intention, one should be, or one is, actually, realistically speaking, responsible for their own intentions and their own responses, how another person behaves or interacts or responds or reacts to one's own responses

is their responsibility, is their making, so that compassion doesn't mean that one has to take responsibility for how other people are reacting to a situation. And compassion means that, fine, you allow that person to be the way they are, while at the same time being understanding, while at the same time being a resource to them, being, in whatever way you can be helpful. But you cannot, let's say, one cannot sacrifice what they're doing in order to benefit the other. That's not compassion. That's just scapegoating.

Just, basically, not even pity or anything like that. It's not pity or sympathy or anything. It's just, now there's no self-compassion, there's no compassion for this particular being here. So compassion really means that you want to keep an open line of communication, an open line channel of interaction with that person, but at the same time, under letting them understand that whatever might be there or was there cannot be possible. Now it's just not something that is possible, and there has to be an open and honest discussion about it. There has to be an open and honest understanding, coming to an understanding that is beneficial for everybody. But at the same time, while you're engaging in that dialogue, anybody who's engaging in that kind of discussion

they're not trying to persuade them, and neither is the other party trying to be persuasive of that other person. There has to be some kind of an understanding, and if there isn't, then there isn't. You have to be able to accept that. One has to be able to accept that it might not be a coming to an understanding, and therefore maybe there's another resolution here. But at no point should any of the mindsets, especially, let's say, the more evolved mindset in the sense of somebody who has attainment, should say that I have to be compassionate and therefore I have to let go of what I don't want to do naturally, because my inclinations are no longer there. It's not aversion. It's just that the inclinations are no longer there, so it's not something that the mind is accustomed to or wants to do anymore.

So at no point should it be said that I have to do something in order to appease this person. The compassion is not appeasement. Compassion is just being open and spacious for that open dialogue. So whatever happens in terms of that dialogue and that communication is whatever will happen. You just have to be open and ready for whatever it might. I have one more question. When one does get the opportunity to see conditioned reality for what it is and continues to use the 6R's, and then realizes that there's the portion where you're trying not to identify with things so much, there's a sense of fear.

What can someone do when they're approaching that fear? A fear of what exactly? Well, it's almost like an existential crisis, like there's a pulling away of what one was, or, yeah, yeah. That fear happens to a lot of people just before an experience of cessation as well. It's the mind saying, I'm holding on and I'm not letting go, because I'm trying to hold on to the last fraction of whatever I can, to say that this is me, this is mine. It's the story, it's the ideas, it's whatever it might be. And at that point in time, just before cessation, there will be coming up all kinds of things that cause the mind to be afraid. Oh, what if I die? Like, what if I go into cessation and never come back out again?

i will tell you this if somebody goes into cessation with an attainment they're bound to come back out it's it's it's no you know it lasts for not even a couple of seconds and they just come out it's only when you're doing determinations and you're going back into cessation and you're doing those things you obviously have a determination that no more than seven days so that fear has to be understood there has to be use of intuition use your intuition to go back and say where is this fear coming from why is there this fear what what is what is it that's preventing the mind to completely let go and just let go of the question and it will come to you you just practice your intuition in this way and when it sheds light on what that is

Then whatever that thing might be, you just 6R, you just keep 6R-ing and letting it go, and understanding what that fear is. That existential fear is just because the mind is identifying with any of these five aggregates. It's either saying, "This body, what if I die?" which means this body decays and dies. Or, "What if I no longer experience feeling in the same way? What if I perceive things in a different way? What if I don't come back?" Or, how will my choices change? Or, what if the way I look at things in terms of my awareness is no longer the same? Well, I can promise you, if you have an attainment, they will no longer be the same. Okay, but it'll be for the better. It'll be for the benefit of the mind. So

Once you see that as being clinging or identifying with the five aggregates, then go back and understand what these aggregates are, in terms of seeing them as being impermanent, and for the majority of your life, or even many of your lifetimes, let's say, liable to cause suffering. Because when you think about samsara, whether it's all of samsara or samsara in terms of your life, the moments that you have been happy, or the moments you've experienced happiness, even if it's lasted for a week, is a blip compared to the enormous amounts of suffering that have been experienced in order for that blip of happiness to be experienced.

so when you see it in that context and you let go and you realize okay i can just let go of this and experience cessation of suffering experience neurodha here and now thank you hello hello so i have a i have a question about the fourth jana again and the base of in its space um i i watched the video of yours uh recent video of yours where you were speaking about how the fourth jana is the base for a psychic development i don't know seeing past lives and

realms and so on uh i wanted to ask you what do you think about the base of it's in its space because my understanding would be that for instance for seeing other realms or communicating with other beings you wouldn't actually want to be on the fourth jana but actually in the fifth i'll show you in the base of infinite space could you clarify that more or less how it works or yeah yeah well you got to think about it this way there are only actually four janas so the the what we call the arupa janas or what is sometimes known as the arupa jhanas let's say are really the ayatanas infinite space infinite consciousness nothingness and neither perception or non-perception

They're all happening within the scope of the fourth jhana, within the scope of the final fourth jhana. So they're just seen as being layers of the fourth jhana. But in terms of experiencing infinite space, yes, when you do experience infinite space you can actually then dive. You can actually attend to your mind and direct its attention in any direction, and be able to, let's say, go to different realms, or be able to experience situations with other beings in different realms. There are certain people who have developed their psychic faculties, and what they've said is when they go into the experience of seeing the different realms, they do experience the sense of infinity of space. So yes, it is totally valid that if you do experience infinite space you can still use that as a way of experiencing different realms, or vice versa.

By the mere fact that it is still part of the fourth jhana. Okay, perfect. So I have another question with regard to that. I'm just going to go into the past lives example. I wanted to know, for instance, a beginner, the difference between a beginner and an advanced person in the past lives practice, so

The way I would like to frame the question, and I would like mostly confirmation, I'm guessing, for instance, a beginner that goes into past lives, the amount of pain or ecstasy they can feel in either the hell realms or the deva realms, when they see their past life, would that pain or ecstasy be as large as an advanced practitioner, let's say an anagami or an arahant, who doesn't actually have any sensual craving or aversion? I ask this because my understanding is that when you see past lives as a beginner it will be very blurry, there will be some photograms, you won't see much, but then as you advance more you'll have, you know, you'll see the entire life, and just as in the sutta, say, you'll know your clan, your food, and everything. So could you clarify, more or less, how that advances, over, you know, from beginner to advanced?

Yeah. Before I do that, I also want to make one comment on the context of understanding past lives, which is: if being able to see the realms or being in infinite space allows one to see the different realms, then you can think of going into past lives as the experience of infinite time. Because what you see is basically you have the experience of infinite space, and then you have the experience of infinite time.

So you're going back in time so to speak in beginningless samsara so now with that understanding with a person who is starting off somebody who's starting off with that practice they will start to see blurry things they will start to see certain inklings of their past lives but it will get clearer as their mindfulness sharpens in terms of the emotional experience of those things for a beginner it will be a little more uh distraught you know kind of just a little more disconcerting if it's unwholesome things but there's still some equanimity there to balance it out with somebody who has eradicated sensual desire and eradicate any kind of aversion altogether then they just see things as they really are which means with completely near perfect if not perfect equanimity so which means that the same thing they might have seen before where they didn't have the central where they did have the central craving and the aversion they had slight ups and downs

Now when they see it there won't be any effect in terms of an emotional resonance with that experience. Okay, perfect. So, last question in quick succession. In the suttas the Buddha and other arahants speak a lot with devas, and sometimes they encounter, you know, a ghost or whatever. What would the reason be for them to speak with these beings? These beings are usually, could be usually, quite deluded. I don't see how these beings could be conducive to the noble eightfold path. Could you more or less clarify what reasons one would have?

Well, there wouldn't be an actual specific reason in terms of developing the practice. You could say seeing devas or encountering them, or hungry ghosts, is a fruit of the practice, a fruit of cultivating psychic faculties. So it's just a matter of fact that they did see the devas, or the devas gave them some kind of information about this or that. I mean, you might come across, for example, in some suttas in the Digha Nikaya, where somebody asked the Buddha, "How did you know that?" and he'll say, "Because a deva said it to me," or "a deva told me." And it's just one of those things. But it's not necessary for the practice, it's not conducive to the practice, it's just an experience that somebody has because their psychic faculties have been

perfected or cultivated. And sometimes they will see them, especially when they're doing the threefold knowledge practice, they'll see them in regards to the understanding of karma. So they might talk to a deva, they might talk to a hungry ghost and say, "How did you get here? What is it that happened that got you to this place?" And they'll say, "I was so and so," and they understand. Okay, through the understanding of dependent origination, it was these particular conditionings, these particular corruptions of the mind, that led you to become a hungry ghost, or led you to be in a hell realm. Or it was because you developed your generosity that got you to this particular deva realm, or whatever it might be. So that is the fruit of that practice, the understanding of karma and action and how action causes subsequent effects. Okay, thank you very much.

You're welcome, Allison. I have one question regarding the underlying tendency. Working with the underlying tendency today, since we are talking about them, is it possible to realize this is the underlying tendency, that getting caught with this type of craving and clinging? Normally, yes, when we were doing sitting, we kind of, you know, it's craving, with it we can identify with the tightness and everything, but not with the underlying tendency until, very, you know, mine is pretty much quiet down. Then is it possible to identify them?

And work with, like, abandoning, you know, using 6R per se? Yeah, if the mind is very quiet you would notice the arising of the underlying tendency in conjunction with what's happening with the feeling. So when we talk about underlying tendencies, why are they called underlying? Because they underlie the experience, they underlie the feeling. So if a feeling is pleasant to the senses, there can be an underlying tendency to crave for it. If there's a painful feeling, there can be an underlying tendency to have aversion to it.

So if your mind is mindful enough, quiet enough, that it can start to see that it's starting to relish this experience and now identify with it, then you can 6R out of that and let it go, so that there's no craving. If you start to notice that there is this negative reaction, this resistance, this tightening up in the form of aversion to that painful feeling, if you can notice it in 6R then you can do it that way. So you can notice it as and when those underlying tendencies arise. Yeah, yeah. So they only arise, that you can only experience them, let's say, when they arise? Yeah. I noticed that some of them are like a precursor to this craving. Then exactly, let it go, then it's going to go to the craving. And because I was listening to some Burmese monks, and they were saying, truly, to get, you know, rooted out, the underlying tendency is with the path and provisions, right?

But I was thinking, but right at that moment, if I keep 6R on, eventually, maybe not this particular underlying tendency, but well, we have tons of it in our lifetime. So yes, it needed rooted out, but I think it's fair to say that we can work with this, right? In every moment you can. For example, the way to understand it is if you react to a situation by identifying with it, there can be with something that is, let's say, pleasant, there can be the underlying tendency towards craving to arise. The link, or the little chain that happens between

the underlying tendency to craving and the full-blown link of craving is your reaction to it, right? So by not reacting to it, by not seeing it as me, mine or myself, that underlying tendency won't arise. But if you notice the inkling of it, like the bubbling up of a thought of craving, and you can catch it and 6R it, then you are reconditioning your mind to weaken those underlying tendencies. But there's two ways about going about doing it. One is by 6R-ing it as and when you see them, and two is complete non-reaction to the experience. The non-reaction doesn't add to the underlying tendency, and where there's no nutriment given to the underlying tendency, which is that reaction, then it withers away. Okay. I'll try that. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Oh, sorry, go ahead. That's okay, you can go. I can go next. No, please.

Okay, thank you. Hi Delson. I'm gonna ask about the five powers, and I was listening to Bhante talk this morning, and something he said triggered something in my mind. Bhante was talking about once you have faith, let's say faith in Buddha, and here's the nine qualities of it. Once you repeat it and once you practice it over and over again, you have confidence in it, and that confidence translates into power. And then of the five powers, which is one of the 37 requisites, and it's obviously it shows that once one's practice the faith, the energy, the mindfulness, you know, the five of it, I think once you practice it to a certain extent, once the mind has the confidence in practicing those qualities, they naturally turn into powers. Would you agree with that understanding? Is that how mind kind of develops into those qualities into actual powers?

Yeah, but we have to understand what powers mean in this case, powers being sort of just a source of strength, source of energy, if you will. So the faculty, as you said, or it can be the faculties or the powers of energy, of faith, of mindfulness, of wisdom and so on, of meditation. So it's just in terms of power, it's not like it's cultivating any kind of iddhis, although it can be one of the requisites for cultivating iddhis, but it's more of cultivating that inner strength. So it's almost like you're exercising a muscle, so when you talk about strength you're exercising a muscle. If you exercise the muscle of faith, meaning having complete conviction, that transforms into conviction

in the Buddha and the Dhamma and the Sangha, then that is the strength, that inner strength that you have. If you cultivate further, practice of concentration, of samadhi, if you develop jhana to a certain level of mastery, then that is your strength, that is your power. If you have deep wisdom and you can start to see dependent origination in every moment, backwards and forwards and sideways and all different ways, then that's your strength in wisdom. So that's the way I would see these powers, not as a basis for necessarily higher powers in terms of, you know, the iddhis, but as just being these things that you have developed internally as a mechanism to continue. Because it's like exercising a muscle. Going back to that, the more you exercise a muscle, the easier it is for you to lift that same kind of weight. So the more you're developing, let's say, jhana for example, the easier it is for you to get into that particular jhana. The more you're developing to see dependent origination in every moment, the easier it is for you to recognize the penetration

So this is how those powers are cultivated. Just a super quick follow-up from that, because it's also related to the iddhis. I wonder whether, once you have, hold on, I'm having some technical difficulties, my sound is no longer working, give me one second. Okay, I think we're back. Okay, I'll try again. Can you hear me? Yeah, okay. It's a super quick follow-up from what you just said. So once those strengths are developed in oneself, could that also be a causation for the development of iddhis and the psychic powers? They can be, but there are specific iddhipadas, right? They're known as the basis for spiritual or psychic faculties, psychic development.

So the iddhipadas, which are also part of the 37 requisites for awakening, they're not just for the higher powers in terms of the psychic faculties, but they're also for the destruction of the taints, because the highest psychic faculty in that sense is the destruction of the taints. So those are, if my memory serves me well, basically chanda, which is cultivated intention. I believe it also has energy, it has consciousness or mind, and there's one more that I'm missing. That's the thing about the 37 requisites: you can never always get all of them in order. You always have to keep cycling through them to make sure you get them. Thank you. You're welcome. Hi Delson. Hello. I have a question regarding the practice

My object of meditation has been quiet mind, and recently I had a lot of first, busy mind, and relaxing and releasing helped me a lot to get to the point that I can have a collected mind. Something that happens sometimes, even in my meditation, and that used to happen before as well, I don't know if I put too much pressure on myself or that's a natural way of doing that. So when my mind gets collected after maybe 20 minutes or 50 minutes or so, I feel that there is a strong

flow of energy and strong pressure on my forehead, and my eye movements just rapidly go kind of like innate random patterns, and then it just concentrates on the light, and then the light is spread around. Sometimes that happens, and I get kind of like an ache on my forehead. Do I put a lot of pressure to get there, or that's, you see, that's the natural past and how it evolved with the meditation? You're putting too much pressure. As soon as you told me that you see a light, then that means you're too concentrated. I hear from people, when they see this light, it 100% means that they're pushing too much, so you have to pull back a little bit. You have to let go of that. If you notice tension in the forehead, if you notice

your eyes fluttering, if you notice these things, then there's way too much, way, way too much effort being given, way too much pushing. You have to pull back a little. You have to just relax when you notice that, or see that as being a hindrance, 6R it, and just relax into the mind, relax into quiet mind. You see, what's happening is when you start to see, when you start to buy it down the mind, you're starting to see the light and you're starting to see fluttering. What you're doing, in terms of trying too hard, is you're constructing up an experience. This meditation is a deconstructive process. It's deconstructing all of the different experiences that are going on, and the deconstruction process is facilitated by relaxing. So when you notice that this is going on, then you have to 6R it and relax into it and pull back and relax and pull back and relax, and then you'll just kind of feel this really, you know, spaciousness, this feeling of just quiet mind right there. Once you're there, it just feels very pristine, very quiet

very bright. Now, when we talk about bright, it doesn't mean that there's this bright light. It's more about it's just very alert. There's a clarity to that mind, there's this sense of cleansing, where this mind, having been completely cleansed or purified. So my suggestion to you is just to relax into it. When you notice it, just 6R, 6R, 6R, pull back, just stay in the quiet. Gotcha. In a way, I guess when that light appears, it helped in a way my concentration as well, because after that

I basically get a much higher collected mind rather than concentration. I don't know. I know this meditation is not based on concentration, and it's more about basically brahma viharas, but. No, no, no. I'll correct you right there. It's not about brahma viharas. Meditation is not about Brahma Viharas. This meditation is about letting go. Okay.

So Brahma Viharas are just an anchor. You could use the breath, like I said. You could use anything as an anchor. Yes, you might feel collected after a while, but is there actually any change in the form of you being collected enough to see when craving is arising in every given moment? If there is, then that's wonderful. I would chance to say that that's not happening. That your mind probably becomes distracted by things, and then you no longer have that collectedness.

That idea of the mind being collected or concentrated around that light is actually one-pointed concentration. So you have to make less of an effort. Don't give so much importance to the Brahma viharas, don't give so much importance to the elements of the practice. Just relax into it. This is more of a feeling meditation, in the form of using your intuition to guide it, but don't push it, don't jerk around it. Just let it flow smoothly. Watch how your mind is moving, watch how the flow of the 6R's is going. See how it rolls, see how the tension melts away. You want to tune in more to the experience of tension melting away, rather than trying to create an experience of being super collected by the mere fact of melting away that tension. What is left is a mind that is naturally collected, instead of a mind that is artificially collected, that is created to be collected. Here you are unraveling the mind, you come to its natural collectedness, and you'll know it's naturally collected when in your daily practice you're able to see here comes the underlying tendency

Here comes the craving and you're able to just let it go. Okay. So the object of meditation, because the mind needs some sort of anchor or somewhere to go, and so if I go to the base of mind and see these things coming up and bubbling up, I can just let it go, and that becomes the object of meditation. Basically, your object of meditation. Yeah. So your object of meditation can be any of the brahmaviharas, or it can be radiating any of the brahmaviharas, or it can be quiet mind, but it's just there to come back to something, right? It's an anchor to come back to the present moment. That's it, because if you get caught up in relaxing and letting go of the formations, then the mind will actually just continue to do that, and it will be continually active. But you need to come back to an anchor, as being there, just resting in it, just letting the mind bask in it, rather than trying to

push away things and go into it. If you just gently let them go, if you gently just 6R them and you're coming back to quiet mind as your object, so don't put too much emphasis on whether I have to have this as an object or that as an object. As long as you're doing the 6R in the right way and you're coming back to something in a clear, open awareness of what's going on, then you're good. Okay. Okay, gotcha. So my second question is that you mentioned about the three knowledges. I guess those are the seeing the sentient beings and past lives, and also the thoughts of reading the thoughts. Is there a way to practice those, or naturally you just wait and you get to later stages and some of them gonna get revealed to you?

Yeah, let me just clarify. The threefold knowledge is basically: the first knowledge is the knowledge of past lives; the second knowledge is the knowledge of the arising and passing away of beings according to their karma; and the third knowledge is knowing that the taints have been destroyed. That's basically what it is. When it comes to reading others' minds and things like that, that's lower than the threefold knowledge, or it's just part of it. It's just, I mean, relatively speaking, it's a mundane power compared to the destruction of the taints, but that's something that you can cultivate when you have a very

good mastery of jhanas, and I don't mean going into them super concentrated and pushing for them. I mean you're able to stay there at will, like in a moment's notice you say, I am in the fourth jhana, and there you are in the fourth jhana. In a moment's notice you go to the eighth jhana, and there you are in the eighth jhana, and so on and so forth. So my recommendation for people who are interested in threefold knowledge is wait until you become an anagami. Okay, thanks. You're welcome. Any more last question for Delson? Well, maybe, can I ask another question?

Yes, of course. So if, for instance, a loved one passed away, or the parents, or is there a way to basically meditate and understand where they are, in which plane of existence they are? They're going to be... I don't think it's necessary for you to know necessarily. I mean, you can be curious about it, but I don't think it really helps in the long run, because now they're long gone. They're gone, you know, and they're no longer part of your life, and you just wish them well wherever they might be. But it's not really going to help you. I mean, you might find out that they're in hell, that's not going to help you, but you might find out that they're in the hungry ghost realm, that's not going to help you either, so

alternatively, even if you do know that they are in, you know, a higher deva plane, again it's not going to help you. So I would say, you know, not to concern the mind with it. I don't really give a lot of importance to these things personally speaking. In terms of somebody passes away, where did they go, or, you know, what has become of them, now they're no longer a part of your life, and that's the end of it, right? Okay, thanks. You're welcome. Hi Delson, I have a question. Yes. Yeah, it's about the practice. Like, I've just done a retreat with Bhante, and he said that after the retreat, you know, the meditation will not be that strong, so you'll have to start with radiating in six directions. So my question is, is it like when we start radiating loving kindness and then we go through

from loving kindness to compassion and to joy and then to equanimity, so is it possible that with regular practice, or maybe because you have gone through that many times, is it possible that you miss that compassion and joy feeling? Like, do they become subtle with time, and from just mindful loving kindness you just jump to equanimity, because I

seem to. Yeah, yeah, that can happen, and what I usually recommend for people is, when they continue with their practice, start off wherever the mind feels natural. It is quite possible that the mind will want to go to loving kindness, but then eventually it just fades into equanimity. It bypasses the feeling of compassion and joy. My recommendation is for people to spend more time in quiet mind as possible, so whatever gets you quickest to quiet mind, and that doesn't mean you have to push for it. But if it starts with loving kindness and just takes you to radiating equanimity and then brings you to quiet mind, that's fine. Or if you start with compassion and then joy and equanimity and then quiet mind, that's fine too. There's no right or wrong way of doing it. Now, I mean, it's basically a process of allowing the mind to unravel quicker, so that it gets to quiet mind as fast as possible.

Yeah, right. So I have another question. Like when I started sitting longer, like three hours and more than three hours, so even after, out of the meditation, means after finishing my sitting, I was feeling like, you know, my body was still in that phase of fourth jhana where you don't feel your body parts. So I just thought that my mind is attached to that feeling, because somehow if you're not in your body, you tend to feel relaxed, so you tend to get attached to that. So what I did was I was just six hours in that feeling, because after sitting also I was feeling, you know, I was not feeling my body. So is it like a common

it can happen. Where even afterwards you can, you know, just not feel your body, and you could still be in the fourth jhana or infinite space, or even with quiet mind. I don't see it as necessarily an attachment to that experience unless you see it for yourself, that oh, I'm getting attached to this experience and I want more of that. But it could just be a natural consequence of the mind relaxing and letting go of any contact with the body. You will still feel, like if the wind is flowing and you're outside, you will feel the breeze, or when a fly lands on your hand you'll still feel it, but if you're not paying attention to it, and you know you're just in the mind, that's okay, that's totally fine. So I don't necessarily have to 6R it if I don't feel attached to it? Yeah, it's just a phenomenon. The only thing you have to 6R is any craving for it or any aversion towards it. Whatever happens is just an impersonal process.

So if you take it to be as mine, or if you start to crave for it, or if you start to have anxiety around it or something, then you have to just see our those responses to that experience, but that experience in itself is not yours. It's just something that happened because of the meditation, causes and consequences. Okay, okay, thank you. You're welcome. I have a question. Thank you. Yes, uh, can you speak to the more sublime ways in which conceit enters into one's practice, where we bring I, and we have nevertheless perhaps a very sublime but present active narrative, if you will, underneath, oh, I'm going to attain this, or I, the I accompanies

our practice, and how that is in and of itself a taint or a fetter that we need to address and get free. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The I itself, the sense of I am, is one of the subtlest formations that you'll experience when you're in quiet mind. It is the formation that gives rise to other experiences. It gives rise to, I am experiencing this. So when you have that I am formation, not only in the practice but even in your daily life, even any contact that arises

is already tainted by that sense of i am so in other words when you've taken something personal the next time there is contact with it you've already in that process uh presupposed it as being myself you've already projected it as being myself or this i am or this is me so when you there is a state which in the suit is known as the signless collectedness of mind and that is where the subtlest of subtlest conceit starts to diminish and it's the state where it's between the sense of the eighth jhana of neither perception non perception and complete cessation and the way i explain it is this signless state is like

you take a ray of light, you take a flashlight, let's say, and you point it up at space up in the sky, and you have these different colored paper, like cellophane paper, and you have eight of them, and the eighth one is just very clear, it's translucent paper, but these are the eight jhanas, and you let go of each one and you get to the eighth where you have quiet mind. That's why quiet mind is this sort of empty translucent kind of feeling, this experience, but you let go of even that, and what you have is your mind, or the attention in the mind, just flowing upward into space and not landing on anything. It's like this, I hesitate to say it because I don't want to give anyone different misunderstanding of that word, but it's like pure awareness. It's this consciousness that doesn't land on anything. It's attention that doesn't land on any object. It's an objectless meditation.

Because it's an objectless meditation, that's why it's called the signless collectiveness of mind. Because of that, the I am starts to diminish. Because where does the I am come in? The I am comes in when there is a subject and an object, right? Perfect. But when you take away any kind of object, then the subject starts to diminish. Now, there is a danger in that, because you can take the pure awareness itself as self. So those subtle formations of conceit that come up and say, "This is me, this is I, this awareness is me," you have to see as being a hindrance that you let go of.

So the way to let go of it is not in making an effort to let go, because in the very making of the effort of letting go of that conceit, you're adding to that field of conceit, because there's an I am that's trying to let go of the I am. So in this case, when you get to this very subtle level, there is just the seeing of it, and in the very seeing of it the mind relaxes. And in the relaxation of that mind, that conceit goes away, because that conceit will arise dependent upon a reaction to it. If you don't react to that sense of a subject, that sense of an I am, then it fades away and it becomes weaker, and then there is the remainderless fading away of that conceived, and then there is the cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness. Perfect. Thank you, Johnson. Just a little, all about that on the signless awareness. It's

It is like a just the awareness, there's no, nothing really attached to it but it's aware, pretty much quiet, empty. But this awareness itself is like, you know, like not like right now, I'm sitting and you know, I am doing this, I'm doing that, nothing like that, just the awareness, right like this is this this is just like brief and then it may come back down to like a little subtlest uh formations of mp and mp and then am i right like this is okay yes okay yes it's it's basically the the subtlest form of quiet mind where you even let go of quiet mind as an object and then there's just this awareness that's it there's just this awareness it's like it's it's just like you are in the middle of nothingness like there's nothing for

millions of miles around you. There's no object, there's nothing going on. Yeah. And sometimes it can be a little anxiety-inducing for some people, because they're like, I can't tell which way is up, which way is down, I can't tell whether I am there or I'm not there. And there's the sense of I am causing that anxiety, to kind of hold on to something, because you need an object to hold on to that sense of self. Because there's no object, there's just this awareness. I mean, that's the only way you can explain it: it's just this pure awareness, objectless awareness, signless awareness. Is that a conditioned state? It is a conditioned state. Yeah, okay. You go back to Majjhima Nikaya 121, and the Buddha talks about the signless collectiveness of mind, and he says even this is volitionally produced, so it is still dependent upon some kind of an intention.

So even the intention of letting go is volitionally produced, and therefore it is a conditioned state. - Thank you. - Thanks. Maybe we should wrap it up. It's really late for Delson. Delson, thank you so much again. I guess 2021 has been a really, really wonderful year for all of us. So thank you, from the bottom of my heart. Thank you. Thank you, Nelson. Thank you. Thank you, Nelson. And Happy New Year. Thank you, Nelson. Happy New Year, everyone. Thank you so much. Happy New Year.