May 8, 2021 - MN 44 The Shorter Series of Questions and Answers - Many Aspects of the Dhamma

Let me begin. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening everyone. I hope you're all doing well. Today we're going to be talking about the true love, which is the discourse on a shorter series of questions and answers. The translation I'm using is by Bhikkhu Bodhi. This is Majjhima Nikaya 44. Thus have I heard: on one occasion the Blessed One was living at Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel's Sanctuary. Then the lay follower Visaka went to the bhikkhuni Dhammadina, and after paying homage to her he sat down at one side and asked her a question. By now I'm sure most of you are aware, based on Bhante Vimalaramsi's discourse on this particular sutta, that Visaka and Dhammadina, before she was a bhikkhuni, were married, and Visaka became an anagami.

And their relationship changed after that. They were no longer like husband and wife. Later on, Dhammadina was inspired to join the Buddha's sangha, and so she then became a bhikkhuni and later on became an arahant. So here he is now visiting her and about to ask her a series of quite interesting questions. The first question he asks is: "Lady, identity, identity is said. What is called identity by the Blessed One?" This identity comes from the Pali sakkaya, which means taking personal, personalizing the body, or taking the body to be personal. But that body is not just constructed of material form, as you'll see. This is another way of understanding the four noble truths. The first noble truth is the truth of suffering, and suffering, as the Buddha and many of his students will discuss when they talk about the four noble truths, is basically mental suffering as well as physical suffering: old age, illness, disease, grief, sorrow, lamentation.

And the shorthand of that is the aggregates, the five aggregates that are affected by clinging, or the five aggregates that are subject to clinging. And you'll see, as we discuss, why it is that the aggregates affected by clinging are not the aggregates in and of themselves. It's the clinging there that is bound up with the five aggregates.

So she says, "Friend Visaka, these five aggregates affected by clinging are called identity by the Blessed One. That is the material form aggregate affected by clinging, the feeling aggregate affected by clinging, the perception aggregate affected by clinging, the formations aggregate affected by clinging, and the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging. These five aggregates affected by clinging are called identity by the Blessed One." So let's just briefly go through each of the five aggregates, so one has a basic understanding. When it comes to material form, that is comprised of the four great elements: earth, water, fire and air. Today's modern understanding of that would be solid molecules and atoms, liquid molecules and atoms, gaseous molecules and atoms, and plasma molecules and atoms. Now, just to understand, plasma is not referring to plasma in reference to blood. The plasma is essentially heat. It is the light energy that arises from the sun, for example, or the energy that arises from electricity,

the electricity that runs through neurons, through the brain and the circuitry of neurons, the heat and temperature that runs through the body, and so on. That is considered to be the fire element, and so that is equated with plasma. Material form can be understood as the body itself in the different elements, and that form can take the form of present or future, form near or far, and so on and so forth. So that's to say, memory of previous forms, form right now, thinking about future forms, and so on. That also includes the six sense bases themselves, that is to say the actual receptors, the sense organs: the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body itself. And then the mind. Of course the mind is more in mentality, but if you think about it, it is tied up with the brain, which is physical, which is form. The feeling aggregate is really sensation, and experience, and that could be sensory experience or mental experience. Usually it's described as three types of feeling: that is to say, pleasant, unpleasant and neutral.

And this understanding of pleasant, unpleasant and neutral, if you look at it, there is the bare sensation or the bare experience, which is the sensation, the vedana. But the perception, or the understanding that this is pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, is the perception of that. It's the knowing of that. And so that leads into perception, which is related to memory, learning and knowledge. We compile, in terms of understanding the world, through our memory centers, and we interact with the world dependent upon this memory. This memory helps one inform what one is seeing, as one had seen it before or understood or experienced it before. So when you see a person, for example, that you've met before, the mind immediately recognizes that person based on their facial features, and, having put a memory of name to that person, immediately recognizes the relationship that they have with that person.

Or when you go outside and you see a tree, you immediately recognize that as a tree. But there are deeper components of that, which include seeing the color green, seeing the color brown, understanding what the branches are, and so on and so forth. So perception is very refined. It really labels things in reference to what one is seeing or understanding or experiencing, in the way of mind or sensory experience. Formations are essentially, in this regard, the understanding that there are three types of formations. Specifically, in this understanding, there are mental formations, there are physical formations, and there are verbal formations. We'll explore that a little later as they discuss formations, but understand that the formations here are in relation to volition or intention that has already been fettered by conceit, fettered by craving, and fettered by ignorance. And then finally consciousness, which comes from the Pali vijnana. Vijnana really means vi, which is divided, and knowledge or awareness or cognition. That's the bare knowing of something. It's not perception, but it is actually cognizing.

So anytime you see something new, you are cognizing it for the first time. And later on, when you recognize it, you are perceiving it. So this cognition really is divided up and dependent upon the understanding and experience of the six sense bases. And this has already been fettered in dependent origination by the formations. It's been activated by fettered formations, and those formations being dependent upon and influenced by ignorance, and that ignorance being influenced by the taints. Now, what one should see is, when one talks about identity, and when one sees this understanding of personality, when one interacts with the world or others interact with you, so to speak,

they're doing so through a stream of kamma. So the aggregates are not stationary. They are always ever-changing, always in flux. And they are basically being manipulated and influenced and touched upon by the flow of dependent origination. One of the analogies that one uses is that the aggregates are like a riverbed, and dependent origination is flowing through this receptacle of the five aggregates. Anything that is clung to, anything that is craved for, anything that is seen with ignorance, anything that is identified, becomes part of these aggregates. It starts to build up into these different aggregates. And when you interact with the world, and others interact with you, you have to see it in that sense: everything that is being done in the way of the five aggregates, is it being done through a sense of self?

Is it being done through some sense of personality? Because all actions are dependent on previous causes and conditions. So when people behave a certain way with you, or you behave a certain way with people, there is this stream of karma, stream of formations, that leads on into activating a certain type of consciousness embedded into the name and form, which is primarily another way of understanding the five aggregates, and through which then one acts or one speaks, and so on and so forth. And when one does so with fettered formations, there is a potential for further identification, a potential for further being, a potential for further craving. And if you look at mentality and materiality, you have contact, feeling, perception,

intention and attention, and then you have form. So contact is in reference to form, as well as the actual material form, because it's through form that there is some kind of contact. It is through the six sense bases that there is some kind of contact, and then that contact has arisen because of, for example, the visible form, as well as the meeting of the eye and the light hitting the eye, dependent upon which the eye consciousness arises. So contact is basically related to the material form aggregate, dealing with the feeling aggregate, perception with the perception aggregate, intention with the formations aggregate, because it's through formations, volitional formations or karmic formations, that intention is fettered to do something with the personal sense of self. And then finally you have attention, which is understood to be where consciousness flows through. When the eye consciousness, for example, arises, dependent upon the joining of the light and the eye, there is an attention given to that experience.

That attention brings forward the eye consciousness, which, already being fettered, will take personal ownership of feeling, and that feeling, if taken personally, will further arise craving. Dependent upon that, craving will arise. So this is really identity: it's the five aggregates affected by clinging. Then it says: "Good, lady." The lay follower Visaka delighted and rejoiced in the bhikkhuni Dhammadina's words. Then he asked her a further question: "Lady, origin of identity, origin of identity is said. What is called the origin of identity by the Blessed One?" So now he's asking about the second noble truth, the cause of this identity. How does this identity arise? And that identity, being the shorthand for suffering, how does it arise? Dhammadina said: "Visaka, it is craving which brings renewal of being, accompanied by delight and lust, delighting in this and that. That is craving for sensual pleasures, craving for being, and craving for non-being. This is called the origin of identity by the Blessed One." Of course, in that craving is also implied the counterpoint, which is aversion to something if it is unpleasant, or the identification of something if it is neutral.

So this craving, which brings renewal of being, renewal of bhava, and that bhava is the accumulation of the different underlying tendencies accompanied by delight and lust or aversion, and it delights or has aversion for this or that. There are three types of craving discussed here. There is the craving for sensual pleasures, that is to say the identifying with sensory experience, and that is rooted in the taint of [unclear] for sensory craving. The identification with sensual craving, the craving for being and craving for non-being, this is rooted in the taint of being itself. And the craving for being, or craving for existence, is still present in an anagami. So at the level of an anagami you won't have any craving or aversion towards sensual activities, towards any sensual experiences, but there will still be this conceit, the sense of 'I am', that I want this in terms of continuing the existence, or I don't want this in terms of not continuing with this existence.

So that is, again, rooted in the different views, the two views specifically: the view of eternalism, the idea that there is an ongoing soul, or the view of annihilationism, that the soul is one and the same as the body. And so this 'I am', this identification process, is rooted in both. But when one actually understands dependent origination, then one doesn't have these views. So in the case of an anagami they won't have such views, but there will still be some kind of craving for existence, this underlying tendency for 'I am', which is the conceit. And from there there arises even the attachment to jhana, the attachment to the Dhamma, making the Dhamma a personalized concept. For example, making the Dhamma something that one adheres to, instead of understanding that even the Dhamma is impersonal and impermanent and not worth holding on to.

So really these three types of craving give rise to identity, give rise to the renewal of the five aggregates affected by clinging. And how that arises is because the craving, whether it's craving for sensual pleasure or the craving for existence or non-existence, gives rise to clinging: clinging to certain views, clinging to certain kinds of sensual activities, clinging to rites and rituals, or clinging to some kind of self-view. Any of this will give rise to some kind of bhava, and that bhava is the accumulation of certain kinds of tendencies, that is the renewal of being, of becoming, which will then give rise to rebirth, that rebirth being the rebirth of not only action but the rebirth of that from which one acts, and which gives rise to further suffering. And then he says: Lady, cessation of identity, cessation of identity is said. What is called the cessation of identity by the Blessed One, friend Visaka? It is the remainderless fading away and ceasing, the giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting of that same craving.

This is called the cessation of identity by the Blessed One. He's asking now about the third noble truth: what is that cessation of identity, what is nirodha, the cessation of suffering? And she says it's the giving up, the relinquishing, the letting go of that craving. And how this is done is through the process of the six R's, through the process of the four right efforts: understanding that craving has arisen. Anytime you see that there is emotional reactivity to the situation, where one either has this sense of 'I want more of this' or 'I don't want more of this', or 'I am this', or craving for existence or non-existence, and that is also rooted in that idea that 'I don't want to be in this situation anymore' or 'I like being in the situation, I hope it doesn't change'. Anytime there is this emotional connection which causes that reactivity, that will give rise to further clinging, being, rebirth and suffering. When you notice that, when you notice that there is this immediate reactivity to something, rather than taking the pause, having the awareness, having the mindfulness, and understanding that situation to be impermanent

or understanding whatever is arising, whether it's a person who's acting in a certain way, whether it's a situation, an experience, whatever it might be, that is impermanent, it is impersonal and not worth holding on to. So by holding on to it, or by taking it to be permanent, one holds on to it, considers it to be something worth holding on to, which can cause suffering. By doing so, and then of course personalizing and identifying with it, one has to notice this through mindfulness. So anytime there is mindfulness present there is no chance for craving to arise. When there is a slip in mindfulness, a slip in tranquility or tranquil awareness, you see what is happening in every moment, and seeing it through the understanding of the three characteristics, seeing it through the understanding of the four noble truths. When that is there, then there won't be any craving present, any kind of craving. But if it's present, if there is craving present, then you use the process of right effort. You use the process of becoming mindful of the situation, noticing that there is craving, aversion, letting it go. So you recognize

you release your attention away from it, relax, come back to a more wholesome state, either through the re-smile if possible or just generating something wholesome within it, if applicable, and then returning to a more balanced state of mind. And when you experience this, especially after you do the relax step, you notice this openness in the mind, and that gives rise to a deeper mindfulness, a deeper awareness that is tranquil. And in that few moments the mind is unconditioned by anything. And then you bring it to something that is wholesome, bring it to something that is in alignment with the eightfold path, in alignment with the Dhamma. And so this is how one gives up craving, or this is the experience of giving up that craving. And I know experiencing that nirodha, Lady, the way leading to the cessation of identity. The way leading to the cessation of identity is said. What is called the way leading to the cessation of identity by the Blessed One, friend Visaka? It is just this noble eightfold path: right view, right intention,

right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right collectedness. But this is the fourth noble truth. How does one experience the cessation of suffering? It is through cultivating: first of all being introduced to understanding, cultivating, developing and finally perfecting the eightfold path. That is to say, you understand or are introduced to the four noble truths, introduced to the Dhamma. You have first a mundane right view, which is the understanding that there is meaning in generosity, there is this law of kamma, there is this gratitude towards one's parents, there are beings who understand the mechanics and causation and understanding of dependent origination. And then there is a higher view, a higher right view, which is that one sees that there are the four noble truths present. Anytime one practices the six R's, the six R's are sort of the encapsulation

the abbreviated form of the eightfold path. So anytime you do the six R's you are actually following the eightfold path, every time you notice craving and let go of it. This view then informs the right thought, to have the right kind of intention. And right intention here being the relinquishing of any attachment or identification with sensory experiences or mental experiences, this is known as nekkhamma. And then the second component to that is non-ill will, not having any aversion or ill will towards a person, situation or thing, and non-cruelty or non-violence, not having intention to cause harm. And so not having this is cultivated by the fulfillment of loving kindness and compassion, by experiencing loving kindness and compassion.

This then gives rise to automatically having the correct or natural right speech. Which is to say, because one has right intention one will not have the intention to speak falsehoods, so one will not speak falsely. One will not act or speak, rather, in a harsh manner, won't gossip about other people, won't deal in idle chatter, and so on. And this also means that they will have the right action, that is to say they won't take what is not given. First and foremost they won't harm anybody. They won't have any intention of harming, because they've cultivated loving kindness and compassion, and see all beings as worthy of loving kindness, worthy of compassion, because all beings, until they become arahants, are suffering.

So when one has this, one will not intentionally harm another being. One would not have such intentions. One will not take what is not given, and one will not have sensual misconduct. Sensual misconduct meaning not being swayed by certain sensory experiences that cause heedlessness and want to then act in a way that can cause one to harm another, or to speak badly about another, and so on and so forth. And then of course part of that is not taking intoxicants. So we're talking about maintaining the five precepts. By doing so one maintains right mindfulness automatically by not taking intoxicants. But after having cultivated right intention, having cultivated the precepts through right speech and right action, there is then right livelihood. One makes certain decisions that start becoming more in alignment with the Dhamma. So, if one is a layperson, not dealing in trade or not being in business where there is the selling of meat, of alcohol, the selling of poisons, the selling of people and the selling of weapons. So when one has all of this correct, one is starting to develop sila. One is developing morality or ethics

or one's integrity. And this gives rise to then right effort. In that right effort one is able to immediately see the effects of not following the precepts. That is the first right effort, being able to recognize, and by doing so preventing further arising. And then one releases or abandons, and relaxes, then one cultivates something that is wholesome. This wholesomeness can be generated by the re-smile and the six R's process. This wholesomeness could be the enlightenment factors, it could be cultivating wisdom, it could be cultivating more mindfulness, cultivating loving kindness, the brahmaviharas, and so on. And then maintaining the awareness of that wholesome state, by doing so one naturally is mindful. One naturally progresses into right mindfulness.

Which is understanding the four foundations of mindfulness, being able to see every moment the arising and passing away of certain things: the body arising and passing away, feeling arising and passing away, perception arising and passing away, mental experiences arising and passing away, different phenomena arising and passing away, and so on. In doing this, one is able to be more present in every situation. When that's the case, the mind is automatically happy, the mind is automatically at peace, and it will respond in a way that is mindful, will respond in a way that is cultivating one's experience of the Dhamma further and deeper. With this mindfulness, it is easier to cultivate right collectedness, which is the experience of getting into jhanas. That then culminates into nibbana, and that culminates into liberation or insight knowledge. Through this process, one understands identity and suffering, lets go of the causes of that suffering, that is the craving, the different kinds of craving, and then experiences that nibbana, that cessation of suffering. So you can look at it in this way: you have suffering or identity

as the first noble truth, and then you have the cause of that suffering, or the cause of that identity. Then you have the experience of not suffering, the escape from suffering, and then you have the cause to bring about, so to speak, that escape from suffering, that cessation of suffering. And then he asks, Lady, is that clinging the same as these five aggregates affected by clinging, or is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates affected by clinging? Then Visakha says: that clinging is neither the same as these five aggregates affected by clinging, nor is clinging something apart from the five aggregates affected by clinging. It is the desire and lust in regard to the five aggregates affected by clinging that is the clinging there.

So when you look at this, it's an interesting question. He says, is that clinging the same as these five aggregates affected by clinging? Or is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates affected by clinging? If the clinging was the same as the five aggregates, that means you would always be experiencing clinging unless you knew a different way out, and this would be the natural way of the five aggregates affected by clinging. Or is the clinging something apart from the aggregates, meaning there are the five aggregates and then there is the clinging here? That would not make sense either. Rather, it's really actually through the experience of the fettered formations

that the clinging arises. It's the fetters: the fetters of ignorance, of conceit, of craving, the desire and lust, all in relation to the five aggregates. As Dhammadinna says, that is the clinging there. Which is to say, it is through the process. So it's intertwined: through the aggregates, through the process or activation of the formations, which then further fetter consciousness, which then further fetters nama-rupa, which then further fetters the identification with the sixth sense basis, and then personalizes the feeling, which then gives rise to craving, clinging, being, rebirth, and then finally suffering. So that clinging has to be noticed. And how is the clinging noticed? It's by understanding that there is present this process of dependent origination, and being mindful. You see when there is a for craving to arise, when there is a potential for clinging to arise. When this happens, one has to notice it and let go of it. When that happens, then that gives rise to further strengthening formations rooted in the Dhamma, formations rooted in letting go, and weakens the formations that caused the clinging, and weakens the formations that are fettered by ignorance

that are, and fettered by craving. Then he says, Lady, how does identity view come to be? That is to say, sakkaya ditthi, which is one of the first three fetters that the stream-enterer destroys when entering the stream. So this is personality view, the idea that there is a self equated with certain things, as Dhammadinna will explain. She says: material form, he regards feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. He regards perception as self, or self as possessed of perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He regards formations as self, or self as possessed of formations, or formations as in self, or self as in formations. He regards consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how identity view comes to be. So this is referring to the twenty different types of self view, in which any of the five aggregates

are regarded as self, equated to self, or as self possessing any of the five aggregates, or the five aggregates contained within the self, or that the self is contained within one or more of the five aggregates. So these are the different types of views. The five aggregates multiplied by the four views are the twenty different types of view, which give rise to suffering. When one enters the stream, one understands that there is no personal self. One lets go of the idea of a personal self. There is still conceit, where there is still identifying with the world. There is still a sense of I-amness to the five aggregates. But the difference here is that self view is more theoretical, meaning one understands on a theoretical level that indeed, I am not one, I am not the five aggregates, and so on and so forth. But in practicality, or in terms of living out one's daily life, there's still conceit, because of this very deep-rooted sense of I am that has arisen over countless lifetimes. One has to let go of that in order to completely fulfill the goal.

even a deeper understanding. Once one has the experience of the infinite consciousness, that the consciousnesses that arise and pass away are impermanent, they arise and pass away, always in flux, and so they're not worth holding on to. They cause boredom, at a certain point a certain tiredness, that is equated to suffering. And one sees there's no controller there, there's no one here actually causing it to happen. Because of certain causes and conditions, there is no self present. So that experience informs this understanding. And of course, when one has a nibbana experience as well, one sees how these links of dependent origination arise, and that this is what gives rise to the idea of a sense of self, but there is not actually any permanent self present. So then he says, Lady, what is the noble eightfold path? Friend Visakha, it is just this noble eightfold path: right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right collectedness. Then he asks, Lady, is the noble eightfold path conditioned or unconditioned? And Visakha: the noble eightfold path is conditioned.

In the understanding of the Dhamma, there is only one unconditioned, that is nibbana, the experience of nibbana. There are supporting causes and conditions leading up to nibbana: that is the eightfold path, that is the seven factors of awakening, that is the jhanas, that is the insight that arises, and so on and so forth. But nibbana itself, as an, is also not self. It doesn't contain any self. It's not conditioned by anything. It doesn't arise of its own accord, but it is something that is beyond the scope of conditions. It is something that is different in the sense of seeing everything as one sees right now. Everything one is experiencing right now is conditioned. The way you are listening to my voice is conditioned by different causes and factors. The way you're seeing me right now is conditioned by certain causes, conditions and factors. But nibbana itself is unconditioned.

it is an experience that just arises when there are the right supporting conditions but those conditions fall away and there is just the experience of nibbana so it is through the experience of the janas through having the experience of awareness of tranquility of insight that the wisdom arises from there there's the experience of nirvana but it's like almost like having built up a building with all of the scaffolding and the scaffolding being the eightfold path and it's the supporting condition for building up this building but then it is no it's no longer dependent upon the scaffolding the experience of nibbana is independent it has no factors that cause it it is just these things that lead up to it and then all those things that lead up to it all away and there's just that experience of nippon lady are the three aggregates included by the noble eightfold path or is the noble eightfold path included by the three aggregates

So when he says aggregates here, he's referring to basically collections. The aggregates come from the word skanda in Sanskrit, or kanda, which means portion or collection or heap. The five aggregates, in that sense, is a heap of form, a heap of feeling, a heap of perception, keep or formations, a heap of consciousness. Referring to this election that he's referring to is the traditional understanding of the division of the Noble Eightfold Path as we understand it. So she says: the three aggregates are not included by the Noble Eightfold Path, friend Visakha, but the Noble Eightfold Path is included by the three aggregates: right speech, right action and right livelihood. These are included in the aggregate of virtue, of sila.

Right effort, right mindfulness and right collectedness: these states are included in the aggregate of collectedness, of samadhi. Right view and right intention: these states are included in the aggregate of wisdom, or insight, or agna. And so when you look at it in this way, first you are developing your ethics, your integrity, by keeping the precepts, but this is of course informed by the general right view and right intention. From there it gives rise for the mind to be collected and understanding how to use right effort, giving rise to correct mindfulness, to right mindfulness, to be able to observe in a manner that doesn't identify, observe in a way that doesn't personalize, and that gives rise to a deeper experience of jhana. This makes up samadhi. The experience of samadhi culminates into knowledge, wisdom, insight and liberation. This then informs and activates the super mundane right view, and so that super mundane right view is the complete understanding of the four noble truths. Because of that there is an automatic right intention, that is to say that mind no longer takes anything as personal, no longer identifies with anything, and is naturally compassionate

naturally friendly, naturally benevolent. And so this right view and right intention are part of that wisdom aggregate. Then he moves on to the subject of meditation, of samadhi. He says, Lady, what is collectedness? What is the basis of collectedness? What is the equipment of collectedness? Unification of mind, Friend Visakha, is collectedness. Unification of mind comes from two Pali words, actually: citta and ekaggata. Citta here is mind or mindset, and ekaggata comes from ekagrata, which usually is translated from Sanskrit or Pali as one point, or unified, or absorbed. But it's not the absorption of the mind. It's a mind's attention which is collected and unified around its object. It's open enough to notice when hindrances arise or when insights are arising. So right collectedness is a mind that is singular in the sense that it takes one object of meditation

which could be loving-kindness, could be quiet mind, could be whatever it is, but the mind doesn't identify it to the point of absorbing into that object. Instead it is aware of it, and its mind is unified around it, at the same time being open enough to see if there is any hindrance arising. Of course it's not looking for hindrances, but when a hindrance does arise it doesn't get disturbed. It just is aware that there is a hindrance present, uses the right efforts, and comes back to a unified mind.

The four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of collectedness, and that is true because when you first start with the object of meditation you are first mindful of what is arising, to culminate into that experience. That is why when you sit down for meditation and you close your eyes you become aware of what is happening in relation to the mind and body for a few minutes: how the different intentions bring up the loving-kindness, give rise to the supporting conditions for that loving-kindness to arise. So you are mindful of how this intention brings up the loving-kindness. Then you become mindful of the object of loving-kindness itself. You become mindful first and foremost of the verbalizations, or the imagination, or the recollection, or whatever it might be, that first you initialize that loving-kindness into, and that drops away. There's a further, deeper unification of mind, unified attention around that loving-kindness.

And so it is through the process of the four foundations of mindfulness: just being aware where the body is, being aware what sensations are arising, being aware of what kind of mental states are arising, and then being aware of the intention, the different phenomena that arise in conjunction with that to bring up that loving-kindness. And then ultimately resting the mind on that loving-kindness. And that initial application of mindfulness then naturally progresses into a unified mind, into a mind's attention that is collected around loving-kindness.

The four right kinds of striving are the equipment of collectedness. Right efforts, or the six R's process, are the equipment of collectedness, meaning what is it that continues to give rise to this collectedness when there is no collectedness present anymore? Do you recognize that the mind is no longer collected, no longer on its object of meditation? You stop that process of being distracted and being attached to the hindrance. You turn your attention away from that and bring it back to the mind. You release your attention, and so by doing so you're abandoning that hindrance, abandoning that distractedness, and you further relax, which further abandons. Come back to the re-smile, which generates a wholesome state of mind. Then you return, and when you return

just watch how the mind naturally collects around that loving-kindness. Allow the smile to inform that feeling of loving-kindness. Watch how the mind naturally collects around it, naturally comes back to that loving-kindness, and then continue watching it. That is the generation of the wholesome state, the third right effort: when you smile and watch how it returns. And then the maintenance of that is to continue observing, continue to have your mind unified around loving-kindness, and then of course repeating whenever necessary, whenever mind gets distracted. The repetition, development and cultivation of these same states is a development of collectedness. Therein, the more you do the six R's process whenever necessary, whenever mind becomes distracted and is no longer on its object, you further strengthen the mind's collectedness every time you use the six R's process in that way. There are these three formations, friend Visakha: the bodily formation, the verbal formation and the mental formation. But lady, what is the bodily formation? What is the verbal formation? What is the mental formation? In-breathing and out-breathing are the bodily formation, that is, inhalation and exhalation, breathing in and breathing out.

Applied thought and sustained thought are the verbal formation. Perception and feeling are the mental formation. But lady, why are in-breathing and out-breathing the bodily formation? Why are applied thought and sustained thought the verbal formation? Why are perception and feeling a mental formation? In-breathing and out-breathing are bodily. These are states bound up with the body, that is why in-breathing and out-breathing are the bodily formation. First one applies thought and sustains thought, and subsequently one breaks out into speech; that is why applied thought and sustained thought are the verbal formation. Perception and feeling are mental. These are states bound up with the mind; that is why perception and feeling, our mental formation, are the mental formation. So in this case the physical act of breathing, the physical act of inhalation and exhalation, is bound up with the body, and so that is why it is referred to as the bodily formation, the physical formations. And so this formation arises and gives rise to the act of breathing in and out, sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously.

meaning you automatically just breathe without any awareness, not even aware that you're breathing, but those formations are still present, allowing the breathing activity to go on. Before you say anything there is some kind of thinking going on. Perhaps it's not the same kind of mindful thinking, but there is some kind of formation of words, some kind of commentary on what is happening. It could be mindful reflection, where one is understanding what is being said and doesn't attach any kind of sense of self to it, or it could be a reactive kind of reflection, where one immediately jumps at what is being said or what one is experiencing and then blurts out something. In either case there is some kind of thought, some kind of reflection going on, and it can be very fast before the words come out. And it is because of, or dependent upon, this thought that one breaks out into speech, and so this is why it's called verbal formations. Any kind of experience, whether it's physical feeling, that is to say the feeling through the five physical senses

is still interpreted by the mind, perceived by the mind, cognized by the mind, including of course mental activities, including thinking and so on and reflecting. So that is also tied up with the mind, which is why then it's called mental formations, or why they are part of the mental formations. Lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come to be, Friend Visakha? When a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, it does not occur to him shall attain the cessation of perception and feeling, or I am attaining this is the cessation of perception and feeling, or I have attained the cessation of perception and feeling. But rather, their mind has been developed previously, been developed in such a way that it leads them to that state. So in the case of an anagami or an arahant, when they experience cessation of perception and feeling, there is an initial determination to get into, so to speak, cessation of perception and feeling.

And so this is developed through practice, this is developed through mastery of the jhanas, understanding the genres in every which way, and then finally mastering the ability to get into and out of cessation of perception and feeling. So the initial intention informs the mind to get into, and when to get out of, cessation of perception and feeling. But in that process of the experience of wanting to attain, there is no I am there. It's just the mind is going to attain, so to speak. The mind will fall into cessation of perception and feeling, and of course when the actual process happens there is no experience of I am attaining this, or even any process that the mind is attaining this. It's just there's the intention, and then a blank.

And so in that blank also there is no experience going on. Lady, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, which states cease first in him: the bodily formation, the verbal formation or the mental formation? Friend Visakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, first the verbal formation ceases, then the bodily formation ceases, then the mental formation ceases. So through the process of jhana, first and foremost this happens as well. When you have the initial application of thought by verbalizing, by bringing up something that causes loving-kindness to come to be, that is the initial application of thought, and so that is coming from verbal formation. When you sit down for meditation and you close your eyes you're not speaking at all; that component of expression, of speech, is gone. Then when you enter the second jhana, the other component of that, which is the initial verbalizing in mind, the initial application and sustenance of thought, is gone. There is only further collectedness along with the other factors of jhana, but now the verbal formations are gone.

when you enter into the fourth channel at that point the breathing becomes very subtle almost to the point that it is imperceptible and so in that sense there is no immediate perception of breathing in and out and so there is that so-called cessation of bodily formation and then finally after neither perception or non-perception everything stops all perception and feeling stops and there is the cessation of the mental formation for an anagami an aranath who has developed the skill that is in the same way that that happens there's first the intention let go of the intention so first there is no speaking when one sits down obviously but the intention then is let go that intention just goes forward drives through but there's no longer any application of thought towards that intention that drops away there's no verbal formation mind and body becomes so relaxed that it requires less and less oxygen and there is less and less breathing volatility going on there's not a lot of breathing going and then finally all reception and feeling drop away and there's the experience of cessation

Well, in the case of an anagami, there will still be an I am after the process of cessation. It won't be that I am emerging from it, but rather the mind is just so blank, so sharp in its mindfulness, so deep, so inclined towards seclusion. There's no thought of I am going there right now. There is just this experience of seclusion, this very deep state of mindfulness without any I-amness there. But then, because of the anagami state, where they still identify, they later on will continue to have the thoughts and the feelings and the perceptions, being fettered by that conceit. In the case of an arahant, when the mind arises, there's none of that conceit arising there. So it's just completely a series of processes, a series of processes, causes and conditions that are impersonal. Lady, when the bhikkhu is emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, which states arise first in him: the bodily formation, the verbal formation, or the mental formation? Visakha, when a bhikkhu is emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, first the mental formation arises.

Then the bodily formation, then the verbal formation. So it comes in the reverse order. So let's say somebody has arisen, or the mind has emerged from cessation of perception and feeling, and attains nibbana. Has a nibbanic experience. In that process, after that process, there is this feeling that arises. There is this perception that arises of this relief. So that is the mental formation. The bodily formation, so, and at that point there is no verbalizing going on. There might be a sensation of, oh wow, but not necessarily a verbalization of, oh wow, what is that? But one is immediately brought back to the awareness of the body. And so the bodily formations

arise, and then comes the process of reflection of what happened. And so then arises the verbal formation. Lady, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, how many kinds of contact touch him? Before I continue with this, going back to the understanding of the mental formation, the bodily formation, and the verbal formation, the arising of these. Let's say it's an anagami or an arahant who comes out. After having intended at a certain duration the mind will emerge from cessation of perception and feeling, in that same process there's first the understanding, which is the perception and feeling that the mind has come out. Then there is the awareness of the body itself. And then, after some time, there are the verbal processes that could arise when one starts to communicate with others, has a reflection of what has arisen in the way of the experience after cessation. Because generally, if one has developed that experience, or that process of being able to go into cessation and out of cessation,

there is also this process of being able to take nibbana as an object as well, particularly in the case of an arahant. But the experience of that, of that seeing of the links of dependent origination, the relief that is rather is then understood to be there. And there's a mental formation that arises which receives and feels. There's experience of feeling and perceiving that relief. And so the mind is silent at that point in time. It's leading to seclusion. After that there is an awareness of the body. There's an awareness coming back to the body itself, awareness of the breathing in and out. And then, after a little later period of time, there is then the awareness of reflection of what happened, and then verbalization going on in terms of communicating with others. Lady, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, how many kinds of contact, touching? And Visakha, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, three kinds of contact, touching, so to speak: voidness contact, signless contact, desireless contact.

So this is that experience of having made contact with the nibbana element. Here the mind is void of any sense of self, and so it's also known as emptiness contact. The mind takes nothing as an object, not even nibbana, because nibbana cannot be considered to be a conditioned object. There's nothing there. There's no inclination to go anywhere. You take to have the mind land on anything that can be considered to be an object, and so it's signless. Animitta, the nimitta here being signs but also another word for object. And desireless contact, which is to say, because there's no inclination for anything, there won't be any intention of grabbing onto something. There is just this pure mind that's making contact with the element. Now, the other way to understand this is seeing that the voidness contact is related to the experience of anatta, the understanding of anatta. Seeing that the signless contact is related to the experience of impermanence, because if all conditioned things are impermanent, then why have the mind land on an object that is conditioned and therefore impermanent?

And if all things that are conditioned are suffering, then why have any desire, why have any inclination towards them? That is where the desireless contact comes from. Lady, when a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, to what does his mind incline? To what does it lean? To what does it tend, of perception and feeling? The mind inclines to seclusion, leads to seclusion, tends to seclusion. So the word seclusion here is a mind that is undisturbed. It's a mind that is uninterested in anything that is conditioned in that point in time. So it's uninvolved in the process of seeing the links of dependent origination arise, and in doing so the mind doesn't hold on to any of those links. There's total seclusion of mind. Another way to understand seclusion, from the Pali word, which is viveka, which can also mean discernment, which can also mean understanding. So there is this understanding of this mechanics of the links of dependent origination arising, and then, of course, later on the relief is felt, having let go of the fetters, let go of craving, and so on.

But then how one proceeds to experience that, and personalize it or not personalize it, determines what happens after that in relation to the attainment experience. So in the case of a stream enterer, when they first experience this whole process, they understand that there definitely is no self present here that can be considered to be an underlying permanent soul. They let go of any self view. They understand that there won't be any rituals or rites that can give rise to this experience, that it is this process of the eightfold path and this process of meditation that leads to it. And they no longer have any doubts about the practice, because they have seen for themselves and experienced it for themselves. So they let go of those fetters. But in the case of the sakadagami, what happens is that after that sense of relief is experienced, that relief is not taken

in the sense that one would have experienced it in the stream entry period, because they're having an initial experience that there is this oh wow factor, like completely dropping all of this suffering, all of these three fetters that can cause rebirth into lower realms. In the case of a sakadagami, the relief is not taken to be so, or it's not experienced in the same manner necessarily. And so there is a weakening of the fetters of desire, of craving, a weakening of the fetter of aversion. And then it's completely broken when that relief is seen as not being craved for. But there is still identification there, meaning, I have experienced this, I have achieved this, I am following the eightfold path. There's still the conceit upon which the higher fetters of the craving for existence, the craving for non-existence, and restlessness are dependent. And then, of course, the experience or the fetter of ignorance, which is the ignorance of the four noble truths, is still present. In the case of the arahant, once they experience this relief, that is taken to be also as impersonal.

and so there is no longer any potentiality for the mind to cling on to that relief causing any of those fetters of conceit restlessness craving for existence non-existence and ignorance to latch onto and further continue that process rather all of that because of that because of that understanding because of that seeing there is no more of a potentiality for it to latch onto and therefore all the feathers drop away and there is then experience of our hardship lady how many kinds of feeling are there friend visaka there are three kinds of feeling pleasant feeling painful and neither painful nor pleasant feeling but lady what is pleasant feeling what is painful feeling what is neither painful nor pleasant feel Ben Vaisaka whatever is felt bodily or mentally as pleasant and soothing is pleasant feeling whatever is felt bodily or mentally as painful and hurting is painful feeling is felt bodily or mentally as neither soothing nor hurting is neither painful nor pleasant feeling lady what is pleasant and what is painful in regard to pleasant few what is painful and what is pleasant in regard to painful feeling what is pleasant and what is painful

in regard to neither painful nor pleasant feeling friend visaka pleasant feeling is pleasant when it persists so when the feeling continues it is considered to be still pleasant when it leaves when it changes and painful when it changes painful feeling is painful when it persists and pleasant when it changes neither painful nor pleasant feeling is pleasant when there is knowledge of it and painful when there is no not no knowledge of it in other words in either case or in any of those cases rather painful pleasant or neutral neither painful nor pleasant if there is no mindfulness present there in the in the neutral feeling then it will be painful because that will give rise to further identification further clinging and so on but if there is mindfulness and understanding that feeling even if it is neutral to be impermanent and therefore not worth holding on to, and therefore impersonal, then it will just subside right there and then, and it won't give rise to any craving.

Lady, what underlying tendency underlies pleasant feeling? What underlying tendency underlies painful feeling? What underlying tendency underlies neither painful nor pleasant feeling? Friend Visaka, the underlying tendency to aversion underlies painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance underlies neither painful nor pleasant feeling. So this underlying tendency, which is anusaya, is made up of seven different underlying tendencies, and they arise dependent upon karmic formations, and those karmic formations arise dependent upon the taints, and those taints arise or are influenced by the previous set of actions, which are influenced by the previous set of accumulating these underlying tendencies. So it's the underlying tendencies that also continue to rotate this wheel of samsara, continue to rotate this wheel of dependent origination. And in the case of pleasant feeling, there can be a potential for that underlying tendency to lust, to craving, to arise if one takes it to be personal.

In the case of painful feeling, there is the underlying tendency towards aversion to arise, because if one takes that personal, one wants to evade and avoid that feeling, thus personalizing, giving rise to aversion, clinging and so on. So then that bhava, that being, that becoming, that accumulation of tendencies, then continues to influence the taints, again specifically the taint of being. But in this case, when there is craving present, or there is ignorance present, also the taint of sensual craving and the taint of ignorance. The underlying tendency to ignorance underlies neither painful nor pleasant feeling. So here it's in reference to not seeing the noble truths, not seeing the four noble truths, in any case. But here, in terms of neutral feeling, not seeing it just as a feeling that is impermanent, as a feeling that can cause suffering because it is conditioned, as a feeling that is impersonal. When one doesn't see that, then there is the underlying tendency of ignorance that activates the further craving, clinging, being, rebirth and so on. Lady, does the underlying tendency to lust underlie all pleasant feeling?

is impersonal impermanent and a cause of suffering because its condition if one takes it personal if there is mindfulness of that then the underlying tendency will not be accumulated because there won't be craving there won't be identifying there won't be any aversion that can give rise to clinking when there is no rise for clinging there won't be any accumulation of those tendencies to give rise to a sense of being when that is not present there won't be any rebirth when that is not present there won't be any suffering so that means anytime there's mindfulness that underlying tendency will not underlie that particular feeling in regard to pleasant feeling what should be abandoned in regard to painful feeling what should be abandoned in regard to neither painful nor pleasant feeling Benvisaka the underlying tendency to lust should be abandoned in regard to pleasant feeling the underlying tendency to aversion should be abandoned in regard to painful feeling the underlying tendency to ignorance should be abandoned in regard to neither painful pleasant feeling so how does one on abandoned these underlying tendencies from accumulating again through mindfulness

Anytime you see that the mind starts to personalize the sensation or mental experience, you know there's a potential for craving to arise. You let go of that identification, let go of that craving, let go of that aversion, and there won't be a further accumulation of underlying tendencies, which give rise to more kamma through the process of the taints, which then underlie the formations, which fetter the formations, through which then there is another set of experiences as an effect of this process of rebirth. Lady, does the underlying tendency to lust have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling? Does the underlying tendency to aversion have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling? Does the underlying tendency to ignorance have to be abandoned in regard to all neither painful nor pleasant feeling? Bhante Visaka, the underlying tendency to lust does not have to be abandoned

in regard to all pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to aversion does not have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance does not have to be abandoned in regard to all neither painful nor pleasant feeling. Why? Because in the same way, if there is no attachment going on, if there is no aversion going on, if there is no ignorance going on, then you don't need to let go of anything, just be aware of that feeling arising and passing away. But she continues with her point in relation to the four jhanas. She says: Dear friend Visaka, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

one lets go of first and foremost the five physical senses. When one enters upon the first jhana, because it is secluded, the mind is secluded from sensual pleasures. There can still be a potential for lust to arise, though, in this case, when one identifies with that jhana, when one craves to be in that jhana rather than just watching things arise and pass away in reference to that jhana and the jhana after that. Then there is again this thought in the mind: when will I enter upon the third jhana? Because here it says, when shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones now enter upon and abide in?

So here, the second and third jhana: in one who generates a longing for the supreme liberation, grief arises without longing as condition. So one needs to let go of that. One can notice that there is a push towards entering the second jhana, a push towards entering the third jhana, and let go of that, because there is a slight aversion to that, meaning: I don't want to be in this first jhana anymore, I want to be in the second jhana. I don't want to be in the second jhana anymore, I want to be in the third jhana. I don't want to be in the third jhana anymore, I want to be in the fourth jhana. Letting go of this I don't want, one also abandons the aversion and the underlying tendency towards aversion, which underlies that. Now, here, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana.

So this is where there's total equanimity. And how does one abandon ignorance? By not taking that jhana to be being experienced by a sense of self. Understanding that jhana, having arisen because of a series of causes and conditions. Not understanding it in a way that says, I am experiencing the fourth jhana, but understanding that because of certain causes and conditions that are impersonal, due to intention for sure, but that intention also arising because of impersonal causes and conditions, in reality, actually. So when one sees it in this way, one abandons ignorance. One lets go of personalizing, one lets go of identifying, one lets go of the idea that this is permanent. So it allows the understanding that these jhanas will be in flux, and so don't hold on to them. That is the understanding of the three characteristics.

And finally, the understanding of the four noble truths, which is to say that when one sees that one is no longer in a jhana, one doesn't take that to be personal and crave for it, but rather lets go of the causes and conditions for that craving, and lets the mind naturally return back to the jhana through the process of right effort. Now we go into counterparts. So here's an interesting understanding of counterpart. The word counterpart comes from the word patibhaga. Pati means step by step, and bhaga has different meanings. It can mean a part of something, it can mean a section of something, or it could mean succeeding. So the counterpart can have different meanings in this regard. Just as patibhaga is synonymous, it has different kinds of meanings, so does counterpart. In this context it can also mean the opposite of something. It can mean the opposite of one quality compared to the other, or it could mean, as I said, succeeding steps, or causes and conditions that are supportive.

So here the context is: Lady, what is the counterpart of pleasant feeling? Friend Visakha, painful feeling is the counterpart of pleasant feeling. That is to say, the opposite of painful feeling is pleasant feeling. What is the counterpart of painful feeling? Pleasant feeling is the counterpart of painful feeling, so the pleasant feeling is the opposite of painful feeling. What is the counterpart of neither painful nor pleasant feeling? Ignorance is the counterpart of neither painful nor pleasant feeling. In other words, here the ignorance is not the opposite of the feeling. The ignorance has arisen because of taking that feeling to be personal.

so it is the next step that ignorance identify it gives rise to the identification of that neither painful or pleasant feeling and that identification further strengthens the ignorance what is the counterpart of ignorance now we switch back the opposite of ignorance is true knowledge so that true knowledge is the insight into the understanding of the links of dependent origination that happen post cessation of perception and feeling so then what is the succeeding step what is the counterpart of true knowledge deliverance is the counterpart of true knowledge that is to say there is no mind that attaches to anything it is me it is starting to make contact with the nirvana element by having seen this whole process as being impersonal by seeing the links arise and because the links are pure in this moment the mind is liberated for that time period it is not taking anything to attach itself to so to speak so then what is the counterpart of deliverance nibbana that is to say after the mind is liberated there is the experience of nibbana the contact with the nibbana element the experience of that relief then that that arises

And then he says, Lady, what is the counterpart of nibbana? She says, Friend Visakha, you have pushed this line of questioning too far. You are not able to grasp the limit to the questions for the holy life. Visakha is grounded upon nibbana, culminates in nibbana, ends in nibbana. If you wish, friend Visakha, go to the Blessed One and ask him about the meaning of this, as the Blessed One explains it to you, so you should remember it. So he wanted to know, is there something beyond nibbana? Can there be nothing beyond the unconditioned? So all of these different counterparts are still conditioned in some way until you have the actual experience of nibbana. That's why his line of questioning had gone too far, because this whole process of the eightfold path, this whole process of what it is that one is doing through the progress of meditation, through the cultivation of the five precepts, through the cultivation of insight and understanding, and through seeing the links of dependent origination, all of this culminates in that experience of nibbana, and that is the only thing that is unconditioned.

Then the lay follower of Isaka, having delighted and rejoiced in the bhikkhuni Dhammadinna's words, rose from his seat, and after paying homage to her, keeping her on his right, he went to the Blessed One. After paying homage to him he sat down at one side and told the Blessed One his entire conversation with the bhikkhuni Dhammadinna. When he finished speaking, the Blessed One told him: The bhikkhuni Dhammadinna is wise, Visakha. The bhikkhuni Dhammadinna has great wisdom. If you had asked me the meaning of this, I would have explained it to you in the same way that the bhikkhuni Dhammadinna has explained it. Such is its meaning, and so you should remember it.

That is what the Blessed One said. The lay follower Visakha was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. Questions and comments. Thank you. Hello. Yes. Hello. I have a question on counterpart. In Pali, it's patibhaga. Yes. Does it mean, like, if it is not there, what comes next? Or if it is surpassed, what comes next? Can I understand it like that?

Yeah. Basically, it's got two different kinds of meanings here. It can mean one: the opposite of something. So, for example, the dualities of pain and pleasure, or good and evil, and so on. That's one understanding. The other understanding is, as you said, the succeeding factor, let's say, or the next step in the process, dependent upon or based on the preceding step. Yeah, I can see that. If I replace the meaning with the opposite, it's working for pleasant feeling and painful feeling, but it's not working for something like avijja and vijja. Actually, if you notice, avijja and vijja are anyway opposites: you have vijja and you have avijja. But I would still say, as I mentioned, as you get into the experience of true knowledge, you can't say that deliverance is the opposite of true knowledge. You would say that deliverance is the succeeding step after true knowledge. In the same way, you wouldn't say that nibbana is the opposite of deliverance, but you would say nibbana is the succeeding step after deliverance.

So in other words, it's the context that it's taken into. That part can be confusing when you read, but if you have that understanding, which is that it has a dual meaning here, then you can make more sense of what is being discussed. Okay, I think surpassed makes sense to me. Yeah. Thank you. I will just say one thing: surpassed only in the context of... you can't say that pain surpasses pleasure, you can't say pleasure surpasses pain. So you have to understand the context first. Yeah, if you let go of pleasure, pain remains. That doesn't work either. Painful or pleasant feeling, and ignorance. Yeah, so. Yeah, it doesn't work there.

May I ask a question, Delson? Go ahead. I'm trying to get to understandings here. We know nibbana is a state of no feeling, correct? So nibbana is kind of a state where all the feeling ceases. And there is a kind of referral here. When you reach the nibbana state, there is a contact. There is feeling arising after that contact.

So this state of contacting the nibbana element, is this kind of existing or within the periphery of nibbana? How different are these two? So the contact, yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. So nibbana itself and the contact with the nibbana element, what is the difference? Right. Is that contact which gives rise to the feeling of relief that you experience when you experience cessation? And then, from cessation, you see the links of dependent origination. You may contact the nibbana element, and there is a feeling of relief that arises after that. So this contact then gives rise to that experience of relief, that sensation of relief. Nibbana itself, again, is that which is the cessation of craving. There's no craving present at all. Cessation of complete suffering, cessation of any identifying. That's why when we say the contact that is there with the nirvana element, it's empty. It's empty of any kind of self.

It is signless, because it doesn't take any sign that is conditioned to be an object. It doesn't have any intention or inclination, or because it sees all things are suffering, all conditioned things are suffering. So nibbana is in that sense a result, not necessarily conditioned by this, but it is the fruition of this understanding. And so it is a state, if you can call it a state, where there is none of the experiences of the links present at all. There is just this nibbana. Even there, there can't be a mind experiencing it. But I will not say that nibbana is equated with cessation of perception and feeling, neither, because cessation of perception and feeling is one thing, and then the experience of having the knowledge of seeing reality as it is, is arising. You have letting go completely of everything. So when you have no involvement in seeing the links of dependent origination, that is the seclusion, that is the viveka, that is not involving the mind or attaching anything of the mind to the links.

And so then there's that experience. So should we call it a voidness experience? Voidness is an experience as well, actually. See, voidness is more about emptiness. And emptiness, there are a couple of understandings of emptiness within the context of the Dhamma. Number one: the emptiness of what is not present. So if you go back to Majjhima Nikaya 121, the shorter discourse on emptiness, the Buddha goes through the experience of diversity and then goes through the process of infinite space, infinite consciousness. So infinite consciousness is that state that is empty of the factors of infinite space, infinite conscious being, empty of infinite space. Nothingness, being empty of the factors of infinite consciousness and infinite space. This is one understanding of emptiness. The other understanding of emptiness is to see that the entire world and all the five aggregates are empty of self. That sunnata is equated with that experience of anatta. Great, thank you Delson. Hi Delson.

I've listened to this sutta quite a few times, but yours is the most detailed, and that's very exciting. I'm just wondering, why did Visakha ask the question about the formation, the body formation, the mental formation and the verbal formation? When we are experiencing, when we meditate and experience the cessation, it is just a blank. Did he ask it because he was already an anagami? As he goes deeper, he has to slow the process so much that he actually experienced these stages, because we are not there yet. I'm just wondering, is that why he's asking it? Okay, yeah, that's a good question. Actually, there is a very... this section, which is in reference to the formations and cessation of perception and feeling, is pretty much identical with the conversation between Citta, who's a householder anagami, and Kamabhu, who is an arahant.

So it's the same kind of conversation that they have between an anagami and an arahat. So like you said, it is quite possible for one reason that Visakha wants to deepen his understanding. Maybe he wants to practice understanding how cessation works. He's curious to see, in relation to formations and intention, how the process of cessation happens, because that's the same thing that happens with the conversation with Kamapu. But of course it could also just be a literary thing, meaning the compilers of the sutta saw that as being useful for people to understand how formations arise and pass away in relation to the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling. I have a comment here, wife, right?

So he may be just testing whether she really understands or not. It's just a joke. I think an anagami should know all these answers. The questions are like, for an anagami, he might experience all the cessations. He might have already experienced a level of understanding, but it has to be developed. Once you get to the level of an anagami, there is further work to be done, of course, in terms of letting go of the five higher fetters and so on.

But the experience of cessation now can be developed to a point where one can actually go into cessation as sort of a vacation from the rest of the world, because one has completely let go of any kind of craving, of aversion, and one is continuing to develop the practice of samadhi and so on and so forth as an anagami. So yeah, it is quite possible that, you know, maybe he was testing his wife, who knows. But at the same time, you could see it as identical to that conversation I mentioned between the other anagami Citta and the other arahat Kamogu. So it's like the arahat is teaching the anagami: now what is the next step? Now you've reached here, and now you want to know further, deeper, into what it means when you talk about these formations and how they arise and pass away in reference to the cessation.

So it's a deeper teaching, a much subtler teaching, that is presented to the anagami. Can it be possible that an anagami cannot enter into cessation as he wishes? Can it be possible that... One can. An anagami can, but it has to be developed. So that's why, when it comes to once one becomes an anagami, there's a process of mastering the jhanas, mastering the ability to go into and out of jhana at will. So, meaning for a certain time period, one intends to be in a jhana, and then maybe for an hour and two minutes, or then shorter periods of time, like for three or four seconds, one is in a jhana.

And then skipping around between jhanas: from the first jhana to the fifth jhana, from the fifth jhana to the second jhana, from the second jhana to infinite consciousness, and so on. Once all this mastery is done, then at that point one gets a deeper understanding of how intention works, and then one lets go of any attachment to that experience of cessation. Instead there is just a development of intention, that is the chanda, cultivation of intention, and one sees

first intellectually understand it, and then experiences how it is that this formation ceases. For example, the verbal formation ceases, then the physical formation ceases, and then the mental formation ceases, and then the mind is blank. So the intention is really how one develops it. Then after that, the anagami, after having developed it, can go in and out of it at will, whenever they want. And of course, when they finally let go of all the fetters, an arahat, then that has become perfected, so they can take a vacation from the world whenever they want. I have a continuation question. You said we have three formations and they see this in sequential order, right? First ceases, the physical formations. Doesn't it occur to him that once the physical formations have ceased, doesn't it indicate to him that he is going to enter into nirodha? No, not necessarily. Is it like a super fast, even, don't know that the physical formation ceased and a verbal formation, then mental formation? Is it he doesn't even know that this is cessation, that cessation of this formation is also happening?

He or she will know that the verbal formations have ceased. Then they will know that the physical formations have ceased, meaning they've seen that the body has become so, and there is no more need for oxygenating the body so much. But they won't necessarily know. They might just have a sensation of dropping or something like that. But they won't know that the mental formation has actually ceased, because then the mind is already in cessation. But they will know when the mind emerges that there is this experience, and that experience is in the form of perception and feeling. So they will know when perception and feeling arise. Then they will know when the physical, meaning the understanding and awareness of the body, arises.

Then they will know verbal formations arise whenever there's any verbalizing going on, and so on. So when it comes to the actual mental formations, when they cease, the mind ceases. So there is no knowing that it has ceased, only after having come out, basically. Maybe I can say, like, after physical formations cease, they know that it might happen. Well, if they have that kind of feeling, they have to let go of that experience or that expectation. Have we got a few more minutes? Yeah, we've got a couple more minutes. And then, I'm really curious: previously you mentioned this state of conscious association. So this is only accessible to those who are on the path of arahatship, or have attained the path of arahatship, or crucian?

And this is the distinguishing factor between an anagami and an arahat: that arahats can consciously enter these. What is phala samapatti? Is that the state? I haven't seen the suttas on this topic, so I was wondering, what are the kinds of suttas that describe this? And based on your personal experiences, how do we- - So, yeah. - How do we progress towards that sort of state, or what are the things that we might expect, or just a bit of description? - Yeah. See, that's the thing.

We can talk all about this. You know, it's like that analogy: I'm pointing to the moon, but don't pay attention to the finger, pay attention to the moon. So in the same way, you can read the suttas. There are descriptions in the suttas, as I guess, for this, on the property, yeah, where I believe it's Ananda who asks Sariputta: is there a level of perception, is there a level of awareness, that is beyond the states of normal awareness, awareness that is beyond the understanding of the jhanas, beyond the ayatanas, beyond all of this? And Sariputta says yes, there is. And what is that? It is the unconditioned. It is the perception, and the way he describes it, it is the perception

of the cessation of bhava, bhava nirodha, meaning there is a perception just as, and the analogy he gives is, just as you throw wood into the fire and the fire lights up, there is one perception that there is the cessation, there's another perception that there is the cessation. So for such a mind, it inclines towards not the arising of formations, not the arising of phenomena, but towards the cessation of phenomena, and in that process the mind inclines towards the cessation of suffering. It takes the third noble truth as the object, so to speak, and for that reason it's not conditioned by anything else in that point in time. That mind is basically, if you were to try to read the mind of that being in that phala samapatti, you won't necessarily find anything.

It will be completely empty. And there is reference to another sutta, in the Maha Parinibbana Sutta, where the Buddha is walking, and he's giving a story about where he's walking. And the story is that, and thunder, and there was something that happened there, there was an accident. And the Buddha asked, what is the nature of this commotion? I'm paraphrasing, of course, but the person says, didn't you see what happened? And he said, no, I did not see. He said, your eyes are open or not? They were open. Didn't you hear what happened? No, I didn't. Were your ears intact? Yes, they were. In other words, all the senses were still active. There was no sense of self interacting with that. There was no sense of activity going on. There was just pure perception going on, pure feeling, without that being the object of one's attention. Instead, the object of one's attention was just the pure cessation of all activity.

that doesn't mean that the mind was absorbed which meant that it was so absorbed that it didn't become distracted with any of the links, with any of the five aggregates present. And you mentioned this can be experienced even on the move. This has to be done on the move. That's right. It can be done while one is standing, while one is walking. In fact, with reference to the Buddha, he was doing it while he was walking. Now, with the case of Sariputta, he doesn't really indicate whether he was walking or sitting or whatever it might be. but of course there is some sense of understanding that's going on there there's some kind of conscious presence of awareness there but it's not necessarily it's not conditioned sorry it's not conditioned by any of the links it's just having it's just having inclined mind away from all things conditioned and coming back to the awareness or understanding of the nirvana element so that conscious cessation is where

none of the factors of feeling are present, none of the factors of perception are present, none of the factors of contact are present. It's contact without there being someone contacting. It's feeling without there being somebody feeling. It's perceiving without somebody having any perception. There's so many words, like I said, there's so many words you can use to describe it, but only when you have the experience. You try to explain it, even in the suttas, it is still conditioned by concepts. How could you conceptualize the non-conceptual? You can only refer to it with concepts. Yeah, totally understand. It's great. Thank you very much, Delson. Welcome. So we will share merit, but before we do, I understand there's a question that was going to be asked.

Yes, a friend of mine couldn't be here for a couple of weeks and he had a question. I will read a tiny little piece from the Udana. And we were discussing this, as some people understand this to be a realm, like maybe the merging of consciousnesses, but we would like you to comment on it. So it goes: it's the Nibbana Sutta, Udana 8.3, and the little piece is: "There is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unfabricated. If there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born, become, made, fabricated, would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unfabricated, escape from the born, become, made, fabricated, is discerned."

And this is in translation by Tenisero. The question is, is this referring to a realm or referring to some kind of existence? Yes, the question is, could you explain what it is saying? And some people understand this as a description of a specific realm, perhaps a realm where all arahants have a certain nibbana consciousness that merges together, so a kind of eternalism view. So maybe you could speak on that bit. Yeah. So, could you tell me again the sutta? I want to go to it just so I can read it for myself, and it's Udana 8.3. Yeah. Okay, I'll just read it so I get it in my mind. There is amongst an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unfabricated.

That actually goes well. I mean, it's an idea, but that idea is not to be really found in the school at all. It's just an idea that people have developed because of certain other references to a consciousness that is unbound and limitless, and other things that are talked about in reference to that. Now, in reference to that, what it's talking about is an unfettered consciousness, that is to say a pure consciousness which doesn't get rooted in the name and form, doesn't take that name and form to be personal or identifies with it. So this is referring to the idea, or the understanding, that the Buddha is only giving you the way out, which is nibbana, the experience of nibbana. And if there were not, so I would not talk about it, that's what he's saying here. So

There is no realm of nibbana. There's no realm of arahants somewhere there. If there were, then you would have to put that right above where the anagamis are. Then that means there has to be a way out from there as well, because that will still be conditioned and still be part of samsara. So that's why nibbana is such a profound and deeply complex process to talk about, because there's so many ways you can understand it. And the simplest way to understand it is the cessation of craving, cessation of the fires of greed, hatred and delusion. That's the simplest way you can understand it: when your mind is free of any craving, free of any aversion, free of all ignorance

then know that mind should be in that realm, that realm of the unmade, which is to say having experienced nibbana. Thank you. Shall we share merits? Let's do it, please. May suffering once be suffering free and the fear struck fearless be. May the grieving shadow grieve and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. Thank you very much. Thank you, Delson. Another wonderful talk. Thank you, Sal. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Delson. Thank you. Take care, everyone. Thank you.