Talk 12 -Q&A -Nibbana- Dependent Origination Conf. with Delson Armstrong-4K

Yesterday, you said that wanting and craving are not the same. Yeah. In my mind, I only see intensity as the difference. Right. Yeah, that's one way of looking at it, the intensity. Secondly, wanting something itself is not craving. The craving is when the mind becomes obsessed by it. So when we talk about craving and attachment, there's craving in there where, if what it is that you want is available to you and when you take it away, if there's any resistance there, then there's been attachment there, there's been craving over there. But wanting specifically something is one thing. Like having a goal in the lay life is okay, completely fine, and working towards that goal is completely fine as well. But being obsessed by it, which is where you are only looking at the outcome or the fruit of your actions, let's say, the outcome of however it is, whatever it is you're doing, where is that going to take me and when will I get that goal?

So the obsession gets in the way of efficiently doing whatever it is that you're doing to get that goal. So, it's bragging rights, being able to. You think about what happens with cessation: you give complete rest to the system, complete rest. So, if you can rest, like the nervous system is at almost complete rest in terms of your sensory basis, that's why I was talking about where the faculties are clear, which means that there's no traffic of sensory data going on, and if you can have that for six days, you can imagine the quality of vision, the quality of hearing and everything else that arises. Your vision is so much better, your hearing is so much better, you taste food completely differently than you would have before.

So the impingement on the sensory basis causes the sense basis to be used to, so you're not, you don't fully enjoy it as you would have before. But having given that amount of rest to the sense basis, it's like everything is brand new again. So, a question about the Sattama Sutta. At the very end, this is perplexed to me, at the very end, it says, and if you follow this path, you will achieve one of two objectives, and that is either the full destruction of the taints, or if not that, my God. Yeah, that's a good question because here, and this is not only in Satipatthana Sutta, I've seen it come across in a couple of other places, but he talks about, because they're still clinging to the Dhamma.

The difference is that, so in the process of experiencing Nibbana as a result of following the satipatthana and going into jhana and so on, the mind experiences Nibbana, but if there's any clinging there, any kind of identification there, then there'll still be some work to be done. But if there's no identification going on there at all, then there's nothing to be done after that. We have a number of arahants, and they don't seem to push through to the next one. And many people really can go one, two, three, and that's it. Yeah, yeah. And who knows, surmise that maybe in this time period, or not come to that, they don't have the merit. Do you think your mic just ceased?

That's one interpretation, that they don't have the merit, but I think the other is that whole thing about clinging to the Dhamma. Clinging to the Dhamma essentially can mean a variety of things, but that crucial moment after experiencing Nibbana is about totally letting go. And it's nearly impossible because it feels so good. The mind is so clear that it just wants to identify with it. It just grabs it. It's just like, oh yeah, that's great, I want more of that. And the other thing is, yeah, I would say it requires a lot more practice outside of formal sitting. This is why I'm talking about recognizing conceit in every moment, trying to just keep loosening that identification process that's going on through conceit, that will then translate into when that happens again, or if that happens again, where the mind just doesn't keep automatically grabbing onto it. It's just, okay, there it is. What about the theory of, we're in the third century after the Buddha died and it said that there are no more arahants.

There can only be arahants. And then of course the fourth is there's all the sacriarchism and nothing after 5,000 years. It's a Burmese commentary. There's other commentaries with 500 years, 1,000 years. So I think that's a disheartening message, but I think the logic of this, and I spoke to some people here about that a long time ago or a few months ago actually about this, is that the logic behind that would mean that, okay, so let's say after 500 years or after 1,000 years, certain attainments are gone. And then only after a certain point of time, you'd only have sotapannas, for example, right? Sotapannas and sakadagamis, or just sotapannas. But regardless, after that, the Dhamma will go.

But then what happens to those sotapannas? How long do they have to wait to become sakadagamis, or how long do you have to wait to become anagamis later on? Do they have to wait until the Dhamma comes back again? Because that's a long life if they're up to seven lifetimes, or up to one lifetime. Yeah, I mean, but that's just a question to that. How would that work? Oh, Mr.

Freeze, followed by Batman, followed by, what was that one where we went backwards like that and then came back? Was it Boomerang or something? Boomerang. So Mr. Freeze, the Batman and Boomerang, those three. Oh yeah, Ninja Warrior, that's right. That was a good one too. I did like the Ferris wheel too, that was fun too. Yeah, it was so. Oh, so Parinibbana is basically the final Nibbana of an arahant or a Buddha. It's the last time they go into Nibbana, and then that's it. The five aggregates cease. But I think you're talking about the three types of contact. It's the empty contact, signless contact, and undirected contact. So signless contact means that there's no object being taken.

Empty contact means that there is no self being taken personally. And undirected means that there is no intention there. It's just whatever is arising, which is the Nibbana element. Thanks, Delson, for your words. I have a question about the recent Samyutta Nikaya 41.6, Shitta, the Householder. So you said that mental formations were feeling and perception and physical formations. The Yuta Sutta was just like the breathing and breathing out. And then the verbal formations are thinking and examining thoughts. Yeah. But thinking and examining thoughts strike me as mental activities. No, no, no. It's not connected to the verbal, but like thinking and... So here's the difference. So with thinking and examining thought, there's an intentionalizing going on.

You're bringing up an object. Everything else after that, after you let go, whatever it is that you're perceiving, you're not intentionally bringing up the thought. But whatever it is you're perceiving in the form of whatever thoughts arise, that's related to mental formations: feeling and perceiving, which is the process of actually observing what thoughts are arising. So mental formations, feeling and perception. Feeling is passive, it happens to you. Right, right. There's no real intention with perception, and feeling and perception just go together. But when it comes to thinking and examining thought, that requires intention. That's right. That's why that's connected to verbal formations. That's right. Thank you. So that happens when the mind and body go into a form of suspended animation.

And the way that works is the last thought that was present. Okay, so first, a being will enter a state of suspended animation. Different from Nirodha or Nirodha Samapatti. It's where the mind is completely unconscious. It basically suppresses the entire mind into unconsciousness. There's nothing there at all. There's not even consciousness or awareness to know that you were there, so it could be mistaken for cessation. For that reason, the difference is the cessation arises from letting go, whereas this state of unconsciousness arises from what happens due to suppression of the hindrances, suppression of the mental faculties. And when that happens, when the being dies, it ends up in the realm of the unconscious beings. They're not aware that they were there.

They're not aware what's going on. And nothing is going on there for some period of time. Whatever thought arises after that, in that lifetime, is what will propagate and facilitate the new life for them after the realm of the unconscious beings. No, no. These are just beings that are in suspended animation. Their mind is in suspended animation. They have a physicality. They're related somewhere around the fourth Brahmaloka. So they're not having anything to do with ghosts. - Earlier today, you were talking about, when you were talking about cessation, it seems like you were saying that mind is involved in cessation. And my understanding would have been that mind isn't involved in cessation, that's why it's cessation.

So could you say more about that? It was certainly like there were two things that were happening. One was that the mind stopped while you were in cessation. Then the mind was involved in, it's certainly involved in the recognition that that's where you were, but how does that relate to the actual experience of Nibbana? It really has to do with the experience of Nibbana. That mind is involved in the experience of Nibbana and so on. Yeah. So here's the thing. There is a difference between Nibbana and Nirodha. Cessation is the experience of complete blank, not even knowing that you were in there. And Nibbana happens when the mind touches it and then as a result of touching it when it comes out.

So it's like a fraction of a moment where as soon as it comes out of cessation, it touches the Nibbana element. And then as a result of that contact, there is a feeling of joy and relief. So those are two different things in that sense. So it does have to do with Nibbana, with the Nibbana experience. Mind is involved in Nibbana. That's correct. That's correct. Her question about the unconscious beings, like a drug overdose person, they're alive, and I also think that people who are in comas aren't always unconscious. Yeah, I would say people who are in comas are not unconscious. But certain things can lead you to unconsciousness, and then when you die in

unconsciousness, yeah, that can take you there too. Yeah. Okay. I think, well, my first question is, every cessation will touch with the nibbana element. My understanding is nibbana. No, not really. Right. The second question is, I think I kind of understand you were explaining about the Pala Samovati versus Mura Samovati. Mura Samovati's were involved in the total community cessation, but Pala Samovati. There is still mind at play there. See, mind is there. Yeah. Okay. That is totally engaged, yeah, per se, with nirodha. Right, right. I'm sorry, just to clarify, I know you're explaining cessation and nirodha, and nirodha, did I miss the definition of nirodha? Can you please explain? So, nirodha, so here's the thing: nirodha has seven different definitions because it depends upon usage and context. There's dukkha nirodha, there's bhava nirodha, there's tanha nirodha, all of these different ways of understanding nirodha.

Then there is sanna vedayita nirodha, which is the Pali for cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness. So when we use the word nirodha, generally speaking, we're referring to the cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness. I have one speculative question, one clarification question. Speculative question is, you mentioned something yesterday about how there was this question about how someone can go into cessation and come out if their mind is turned off, if you will, like the third cessation, and how are you able to come up after 15 minutes or six days or whatever it is. And I'm wondering, how much influence do we have over our formations? Because I was wondering, if our consciousness is shaped by our formations, and if we can somehow influence our formations that will later trigger the consciousness in six days or 15 minutes or something like that.

This question of where is it, if the mind isn't there because everything has ceased, how does it want to come up? And, well, maybe it's not the mind that knows, per se. It's the intention that somehow the formation that gives us that consciousness at the time that we wanted to come up. This kind of speculated, does that sound like something that might be so? You have to understand that we always have influence over our formations, even in the waking state. It's our intentions that influence the arising of the next formations. So when it comes to cessation, you set the intention and you let it go. So it seems like what could be happening is that the formations are ceased for that duration.

But because there are vital formations, the ayu-sankharas, that are keeping things going, that it's from that level that the intention is set in, so that it knows when to come out. Okay. I just wanted to also ask a quick question about kamma and see if I understand another aspect of it. I think I mentioned once, if we start to understand how we stop taking things personally in terms of our interactions with other people.

I was thinking last night, is it like when you go to a carnival and you're bumping bumper cars? People are bumping into you through no real tricks of their own sometimes, because they have no idea what they're doing. Sometimes they do, right? And so when I've interacted with people who have been, you know, mean to me or hurt me, blah, blah, blah, or even been good to me, it would be fair to say they weren't acting out of their karma, didn't realize what they were doing, if you will. Again, you forgive them because they didn't know what they were doing.

Not resolving a responsibility, but they have no idea that they're just kind of caught up in the stream. Don't take it personally. And people who are good to me, my friends, etc., you might say, they're also caught in this current stream, in this bumper car world, right? But they're making better choices, or choices that, I guess, align with my stream, and so that it's not painful. But either way, whether the choices that I like or choices that I don't like, you can just say bumper cars, people just kind of bouncing off each other and things are happening. So you shouldn't take anything that people do personally. Yeah, if that analogy works for you, that's great.

Because that's the ultimate realization that nothing is personal. Everything is impersonal. The mind always has a tendency to want to make meaning out of things. And that comes from conceit. Why is it that this person did this? Why is it that they said it this way? Or did it mean something else? All of those things are causing the mind suffering.

So if you take your thoughts impersonally, and if you just let go of what other people are doing, you won't have any suffering. I'm going to try to formulate my question. It's a little nebulous, but one of the things that you said was that feeling, perception, and consciousness, and Buddha said it, they circle around each other. And the other thing is when reflecting on what mentality is, you have intention, attention, perception, feeling, and contact. So, when you're observing consciousness and you're feeling and perception of consciousness, when you draw attention on that, how does that interact with intention? And where is the contact? I guess the contact is the observation of feeling, perception and consciousness, how it works together. Yeah. You, yeah, that's a good question, because you could look at attention being embedded in contact, because attention is how consciousness flows.

So if your attention is where, I should say, consciousness flows, where you put your attention, there consciousness will flow. So if that's the case, and contact is the union of sense-based object and sense-based consciousness, then that means that consciousness and attention are embedded in contact. And contact then gives rise to the feeling and perception. But contact also gives rise to intention. There's a Sutta, which is Anguttara Nikaya 6.63. It's called the Nibbedhika Sutta, or it's also known as the Penetrative Discourse. And there the Buddha talks about contact being the source for feeling, perception and intention, as well as for karma, because intention and karma are basically interrelated. So when you have contact with something, that's the only time you can have an intention to do something. The signless, yeah, so you're sitting in signless, and at some point you drop attention. Yeah, so you're saying the attention and then consciousness drops? Yes, because you drop the attention. Right. And where is part of the intention? Yeah, so the intention there would be to drop it. So that's where they're interrelated as well.

The contact can give rise to intention, and the intention could be to pay attention. I'm trying to experience what you're saying. So for example, the contact right now is between your eyes and this form and color, and then there's the consciousness of that, but that's because you're paying attention to this. If I point to this flower here, then now the attention is going there, but there was an intention to pay attention to that, and in paying attention to the intention, paying attention to that, there was now contact that arose with that particular flower. Yeah. In going through cessation, what you're doing is you have the intention. Okay. Well, here's the thing.

Do we want to talk about cessation as an attainment to go into, or cessation where it just happens? Yeah, so cessation as an attainment. What's going on there is, prior to you even sitting down, you have an intention that the mind will enter cessation for a certain period of time. That intention is then let go of, meaning your mind doesn't get obsessed by that intention, and you essentially trust the process. The key there is to just let go. In other words, whatever is happening in the practice, whatever is happening in the sit, you keep just relaxing and letting go, and your attention is on nothing in particular. It's not directed anywhere in particular. You're just letting go. You basically are, in some sense, ignoring, not exactly ignoring, but you're just not interested in paying attention to any objects, and at a certain point you come to that signless

state, and at that point you don't do anything at all, because there's nothing else to do after that. And once that happens, at a certain point, because no attention is being given to whatever might be arising in the background, because the attention is what is fueling the arising of further formations and further consciousness, you let go of trying to pay attention to anything at all. You let go of trying to look at something in particular, and then you keep relaxing, and then the mind just sinks into cessation. So could you say it's okay to be wanting but not crazy? That's right. Now, the other cessation, without the attainment, which is the cessation that you just drop into, in principle that's the same thing that's going on. The difference is really there's no intention there. There's no intention to go into cessation. Yeah, exactly. Right, just sat down.

Right. And kept letting go. Yeah, that's it. And you keep letting go, keep letting go, keep relaxing until again, you get to that signless experience. And then over there, you don't do anything. And then you just keep the mind relaxed. And eventually, due to non-attention to any formations arising, the mind just shuts down. So I've tried this. What kind of fastness with the practice is necessary for an intended cessation to happen? And then the second part of that is, if that happens, would that be concurrent or followed with the experience of a divine? And would that in turn also be in concurrence with an attainment? First of all, traditionally speaking, and I'm in agreement with this, it makes more sense that an anagami would be able to enter cessation, because they have fewer fetters to deal with, which means they have fewer hindrances to deal with.

There's no sensual craving and there's no aversion. At that point, they might be dealing with a little bit of sloth and torpor and restlessness, let's say. So it's much easier for them to start the practice of trying to attain cessation. And what you need really is good mental malleability. So that's why the exercise of the determinations is crucial to that.

And sometimes people do the determinations and sometimes they have good success and sometimes they kind of fall off because it's just a lot of work. It's just too much, going from one jhana and then the second jhana and then all the way to the eighth, and then doing the same thing over with, you know, it's just like a whole exercise that you have to do. Yeah, but worth it. But what happens is, so I would say for those who want to do determinations, don't put a time limit on it. Don't say I have to do it within the next two weeks or I have to get it done by the next month. Take time with it, really pursue it and enjoy it. Once you're able to master that, then cessation is a piece of cake. Is Nibbana. Yeah, so Nibbana follows, or you could say Nibbana is there in cessation, or can be there in cessation, I should say, because not all the time when you experience cessation do you touch the Nibbana element, because you haven't developed enough insight over there, which is dependent upon discernment.

So you can enter cessation, but you don't touch the Nibbana element. You haven't let go at a very deep level, the core roots of whatever it is that's still remaining like the conceit and so on so that practice of doing that then will take you to Nibbana. If a Nibbana experience is followed by a cessation experience then that means there is an attainment. Followed by a cessation experience. But I don't I want to make sure that nobody misconstrues what I just said there. Because some people can experience upon hearing the Dhamma. And they just let go. And it's like relief, they've experienced something where there is a shift. So there's a follow up to that where There's a noticeable shift in the mindset and a noticeable shift in the perspective and personality.

And also, Nibbana can be accessible once you've let go completely, like you have done and walked the path, completed the path and all of that. Then at that point, Nibbana is always accessible. So, I mean, as an arahant or... Right. But not an anagami. Not the little peons. That was a real motivator. An anagami is not a peon. That's a noble being. Yes. I'm sort of swimming around with all of this. I feel like a little over my head. Yeah. and forth. And I just, maybe one way of getting at it is, I mean, I know in nirodha there's no perception, there's no awareness, there's nothing. And the eighth jhana, there's certainly awareness, perception may be a little flaky, etc.

And cessation, the rest of my mind sort out in between there. Is there any perception in cessation or is that... No, no. Is it just way too much? Yeah, no perception at all in cessation. So we're talking about different intensities during slavings of awareness. And at that point, it's zero at cessation. Yes. Yeah. Zero at cessation. You wouldn't know you were in it until you came out of it. Or that some people can recognize themselves going into it, sinking into it, and they're just like clawing, like, no, I don't want to go. It's like they're on that roller coaster again and they just don't want to go. Yeah, no, I felt it. I could sit coming and say, well, maybe tomorrow.

I mean, I feel like I'm hanging out in space there. That's the sense of self, that's like, it's like, oh, if I go back there again, I'm going to collapse and I won't come back again. That, that's the conceit. That's yeah. Yeah. Cessation is dying. It's you're practicing how to die. That's difficult. I mean, that's absolutely... I think the person behind you had a question. Oh yeah, well, you kind of addressed it, but I was just going to ask, what are the factors that lead to a cessation followed by contact with Nibbana versus not followed by contact? Can you go into a little bit of that? Yeah, so that was the insight and the discernment.

Yeah. Can you just expand on that a little bit? So what that means is that there has to be a certain level of awareness and mindfulness to be able to look very, very, very closely. And prior to all of that formal sitting, there has to be consistent use of the six R's to continue to let go of whatever fetters, roots, and hindrances are still present. Because the more you do that, it has a cumulative effect and it creates a momentum, so that with all that momentum, touching Nibbana is possible. Yeah, exactly. Don't analyze, be more mindful, be more clear, be more sharp in your discernment, but all of that is dependent upon what you do in your daily practice, in your daily life, how much you're able to six R's and let go. So it's a matter of walking the path over and over and over. Yeah, 10,000 steps.

Perfect. Okay, Nelson, I have a need to know practically how does one actually sit down and practice determinations two minutes at a time in and out of jhanas? How do you keep track? Is there a timer? Yeah, there's a whole process. You go to the Dhammasukha website and you look for determinations. It's on the menu. Look for determinations. Yeah, yeah, well. Okay, so it's on the menu, and you can get it at damasuka.org. That's right. Okay, that was very good, thanks. Just following on from the determination practice, what's the benefit of practicing cessation as an anagami? Is there a kind of building one for the arahantship? What is in this cessation practice that's beneficial for somebody to do that?

So there's a lot of relief in there. That's really it. It's a great amount of relief to go into cessation because you have cut off all connections with the external world and the internal world, that is to say, you shut off your mind, and you experience great amounts of relief. That's the one benefit, number one benefit. And I would say, if as an anagami someone is able to continue to practice cessation, that they should continue to practice cessation, because that'll only make things easier for them to be able to recognize the noticeable shift between when they do attain Nibbana, because there will be something different that arises as compared to when they're just going into cessation as an exercise.

When they're just practicing, when they're just sitting and they're continuing to let go and the mind goes into cessation and it comes out touching the Nibbana element, there's a noticeable difference. So you'll be able to discern between the two. I just had one question now. Yeah, there's one in the back, too. So I have a one-year-old, so in the book, is your part talking about five students or in MN11, I think, 4-1-1, where he describes Sartre because it might not wait. We never hear him, we never hear any of them going through sort of on a second video. Well, in the case of the Deer Park, the first sermon Kondonya attains stream entry. That's what it says. But then later on, in the second sermon with the Anattalakkhana Sutta, they attain arahatship. Yeah, no, but before that, he attained stream entry upon hearing.

Yeah, yeah. So this one, in some traditions of Buddhism, they say just up to fourth jhana is enough to get to enlightenment. Is that correct or is that you should get to there or there? Well, I think you should understand in this way, that you can attain cessation from the first jhana onwards. cases where people are just walking and then they blank out like what happened and all of a sudden they experience this euphoria and so it can happen they'll probably be startling while they're driving

though. Yeah. So, I'm getting into the sense that cessation doesn't seem to be is cessation necessary and sufficient for Nibbana? The reason I ask is because I think of other traditions, like I know other monks, right, who they say, if you understand impermanence to reach enlightenment today, when you meditate on the body and what it looks like on the inside and courses, and that's it, they don't talk about jhanas, they don't talk about cessation, nothing. All they do is the impermanence of the body, impermanence of the body, and they claim that they have some, you know, arahants in their orders. So it makes me think. So, meditation aside, are there other ways to reach Nibbana that don't involve cessation, or cessation if necessary?

Like I told you, somebody has upon hearing. So over there, they must have dropped for a moment and experienced great relief and joy and attained Nibbana. So, regardless of the route, people will go through cessation to Nibbana. Whether they do a TWIM kind of practice, or they hear it, or some other practice, they'll drop. No, no, no, no. Not all cessations are the same.

You can enter cessation through yoga practice, too, but you don't experience Nibbana from there. Also, cessation of perception feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, the cessation is not necessary. No, what I'm saying is there are different traditions that have cessation, but you need right view in order for you to experience Nibbana. That's the bar right here. We talked a lot about let go, about intention, and I'm, and you said to do it daily in our lives. For some of us it has to work. I'm trying to visualize it in my head, how would I do it, because a lot of time I'm working, like, okay, I have time to go to lunch at noon, and I have time to see 30 patients, or whatever, whatever. So there's always an intention of a time frame, because our daily schedule is this and this and this, and I don't know how possibly to let go of that. If you wouldn't mind, just have a buy slowly, what, how do we

do it in a daily life I guess. I tend to get up at seven o'clock. Should I just say, just get up seven o'clock more attention and get up whenever I get up? It doesn't seem to work. It's because without intention or time, I feel like I won't accomplish that goal. And then there's a conflict in what we're learning here to how I would practice in my daily life. So it wouldn't be my elucidating. I just want you to clarify the question again, because what you're saying is, if I'm understanding correctly, is that you make an intention to say, wake up at 7 o'clock. As opposed to waking up... Whatever time. So when you say let go, try to let go of intention and practice daily through our lives.

And I guess my question would be, how do I let go of intention when so much of our jobs require some type of intention? Intention rooted in craving. Let go of intention rooted in craving and conceit. Yeah. - I may have misperceived earlier, you mentioned something about cessation after Nibbana. - No, no, cessation after Nibbana? In what context do you remember? Nibbana after cessation, cessation after Nibbana, Nibbana after cessation. That's a new mantra. That's right. Second question is, is there any difference other than quantitatively between these micro cessations versus just cessation of five, ten minutes a day, two days, six days? If one experiences six, seven, eight, ten cessations, kind of micro cessations, with the sense of relief, et cetera, in one sitting, is there a difference in terms of the attainment, the results, versus someone who just sits for five days, six days?

So, you know, there is a concept of micro cessations, which means that the mind kind of winks out. And it's different from sloth and torpor. It's like the it especially happens in neither perception or non perception, where there's very little perception going on, and there's no fuel for the mind. So it just, it just winks out for a moment and comes back. And when it comes back, it's very luminous, the mind is very bright, radiant, luminous. But I would not call that a full-blown cessation. It's just the mind is starting to, you know, tiptoe towards the edge of the cliff. But it hasn't really fully, like, dived deep into it. And the other part of your question was?

Is it a copy if I sense a belief that I do like all that also? Yeah, if... but then you're saying it happens continuously, that you go into micro cessations, you dip and experience, dip and experience, dip and experience. Yeah, that's just the mind winking out and experiencing a deeper clarity, because the joy you feel will be extreme. Yeah, you will feel happy, you will feel relieved, but it's because in those dips of micro cessation... And the mind is let go quite a lot, but not enough to warrant an attainment.

Yeah. Oh, who has the mic? Oh, after that. So, I just want to make sure that I'm tracking this right. Nibbana is always preceded by cessation, whether it's for a split second or hours. Right. So, wait, are you saying cessation after Nibbana? No, no, no, all I'm saying is when someone has an experience of Nibbana, so either path or fruit, this is a question. So that is always preceded by cessation, correct? Yeah. Whether it's for, you know, a microsecond or longer. Okay. So I just told him over there that when you go into microsecond of cessation and you keep dipping in there, it's not full-blown cessation. If you keep dipping in and out. Yeah. So there's, so my understanding is you can definitely have cessation.

When you come out of it, there's a sense of relief, but there may not be path and fruit from that, if it's a micro cessation. Yes. My question is, my understanding is they're always preceded by cessation, that there's no going direct to an abonic experience. You're always going to go through cessation. When somebody hears the Dhamma, also that can happen. That's what I'm saying, right? So if somebody were listening to the Dhamma and they have a path or fruit moment, aren't they still going through cessation, even if it's a microsecond? Yes, it can happen.

Let me ask this a different way. This goes back to something I've asked Bhante Vimalaramsi about a number of times, and it's really just a technical thing. Yeah. My understanding is that for many, so Nibbana, path and fruit, when I am... so his answer was, I said, Bhante, do you always go through cessation to get to Nibbana, to have a path and fruit experience? And he said yes to me. I don't see a way to go just directly to Nibbana. You're going to have to go through cessation, even if it's short. Not all short cessations result in popping. True, that's right. But it could. Yes, it's not a must. So just, you using what you said, so that I can clarify for him, because he's going to get a little confused by what I said, and then what I told you. I just feel like these are coming whiteboard. Yeah, I know, we have a whiteboard.

So, yes, you are making sense about that, but you see what's happening there. In the case of somebody upon hearing and experiencing that, it's because they fully understood the Dhamma at that moment, which means there is proper amounts of insight and discernment, whereas in this case, if it's a micro cessation, you have to see how much insight is there, how much clarity of mind is in there, before the mind dips into micro cessation. Okay. So not, not to many of the waters, but we're both talking about there, there is a micro cessation without path and fruit. And my question is, there's a micro sensation or a macro realm and path and fruit. So Nibbana is always preceded by a cessation.

Right. Thank you. - We have our hand up a while. - We're going to go to this neighborhood for a minute. - Check. - And my question has to do with, I'm not sure what it has to do. - Did you have a cessation? Yes, that's a big one, all right, let's get into it. So when do you see the links of dependent origination? When do you guys think you see the links of dependent origination? Okay, I heard all different answers here. Okay, how many people think it happens before Nibbana, and how many think that it happens after Nibbana? It happens after Nibbana. Okay, here's what happens. When you see the links of dependent origination, what does that mean when you see them?

Now, as I said, they can arise as squiggles, they can arise as dashes, they can arise as circles, they can arise as different kinds of things, because of however the mental models work, and they're just mental representations of how your mind will see them. However, what you are seeing is conditioned, which means that what you are experiencing, what seems like it's concurrent, is happening one after the other. Your mind dips into cessation, makes contact with Nibbana. Now that contact is unconditioned. As a result of that unconditioned contact, it conditions a feeling, and so when that feeling arises, what are you seeing there? You're seeing the arising of feeling as a link. And then when there is some kind of joy and relief, the mind looks at that and is like, wow.

And then you're seeing the next arising of dependent origination. You're seeing contact and feeling and perception tied to it, and other things ahead of it. So is that the rebooting, the total reboot, cold reboot, and then the OS is starting to kick in, and then it just proliferates? Yeah, but that is only after you touch Nibbana. Unconditioned contact, which then gives rise to a feeling of joy and relief. So when you see the arising of the links of dependent origination, you're seeing feeling, which is conditioned by contact with Nibbana. So you can't equate the joy and relief with Nibbana. The joy and relief is a conditioned

feeling after Nibbana, and in seeing that and then followed right after that is the experience. So in seeing the links of that feeling and whatever arises is the joy and relief. So you see the links, and it's followed by joy and relief, right? Most of you are nodding, so you know what I'm talking about. But what happens is the joy and relief itself is not Nibbana. It is the conditioned feeling happening as a result of Nibbana, conditioned by Nibbana, by contact with Nibbana. So it's a transcendental experience. Yes. So this is what we did today: the transcendental dependent origination, which is motivated by suffering, by bummers, by 'I don't like it, I want it to stop.'

Okay, then you said the first link to that, that is the transcendental path. Yes. Then there's faith. The first link after that is faith. So you need a bunch of those links, and I just wanted to clarify the faith link. And that is faith in... are we talking about the Buddhist Dhamma, or faith in truth as an existential reality? Or what are we talking about, faith in what? And is that God's faith? Faith is first and foremost when you start out on the path. Faith does not mean that you have to believe in something. It means you have an open and willing mind to try the practice and see for yourself how it works. As a result of walking the path, what happens is experiential confidence is established. That is another level of faith, that is conviction in the Buddha Dhamma after having practiced it.

Right, exactly. Gladness, pamojja. Yeah. And then joy. So walking the path is a form of faithfulness, or being faithful to the practice? Yes. That's one way of looking at it. Yes. Meaning you're adhering to the path. You're not trying to make changes. You're not trying to bargain with the path. It's the path or not the path. It's my way or the highway. And that's being faithful. That's right. But only after making contact with Nibbana. And I'll tell you one thing, though, by the way: sometimes cessation can happen after Nibbana. No, I'm not joking. I'm not joking. I'm serious. In some people's cases, cessation has been followed by Nibbana. Very rarely, but it has happened.

No, no, with Nibbana and then cessation. Yeah, I know. Yeah. That's right. Neither both, nor neither, neither either. But these are outliers. It happens, you know, in my experience with interviews. It has happened where somebody has seen the links as a result of touching, and then their mind ceases. Which doesn't mean that there wasn't a cessation before that. This is quantum physics. That's right. It's a wave and a particle, neither or both, all at the same time. That's right. Yes, retroactively. Yeah. Mark, here.

Mark. You use the term "winking out," and I heard that before in another venue. And my experience of that was that the mind stopped and then it started again. And it almost was, I was trying to understand that, I should say, my understanding that was like a depth of concentration, an absorbed state, kind of spontaneously happened, and then arising, coming back out of that, and then the consciousness continued. Is that fair? It can be one. One way could be where the mind becomes very absorbed, and then it just winks out. But in the case of where people are experiencing micro-cessations and come back up, and they're experiencing some level of relief and luminosity, it's because they're letting go.

It's a result of letting go. - Well, I'm just thinking that sometimes this could happen very spontaneously, and they don't even realize it, but the activity that they were engaged in continued, and they came back and made awareness of that, realize there was a space there, and use that as a term to describe that kind of, let's say, space. As winking out, yeah. Blanking out, spacing out, winking out, yeah. Yeah, that can happen. Yes. Okay, thank you. Can you have one? When I was writing Buddha's Maps, there was no term for all this stuff. And so I made a term, the winking out. Right. To cover everything from the top of the face through Nirvana as a way of kind of punting, because I couldn't sort it out, but there was a phenomenon that they had in common.

But what we're talking about here is infinitely more refined. But that's where I got the term winking out is from your book. Yeah. I got it from workshops with the Monroe Institute. Oh, there you go. Yeah. The people there during the process, and so people would report that this was their experience, and it was a commonly used term for that, but the activity was still continuing and yet there would be a gap, right, of awareness, and it was just a way to say this, I missed that part, because that's what my mind did. Right, yeah. Dustin, you talk about touching the Nibbana element, and coming out and seeing the links of dependent origination, and the links that are coming out are the pleasant feeling from touching that element.

What about, isn't there also like another pleasant feeling where the wife realizes it's seeing the links and it's taking joy and relief and a level of understanding, like, oh, that is this, how this process works. Yes. That's followed by having seen the second cycle. So what I'm saying is when you make contact, right? You make contact, you see the feeling, and then the next conditioned links arise and that's what you're seeing. So, duration of cessation, how long is a micro and how long is a remember? What we said there is no time. And I also think about, between the experience and the next, like the relief, the relief experience, does it always happen right after the cessation or could there be a pause

between whatever you had happened in your meditation and an hour later? Yes, I've had people who have had a cessation experience, didn't realize they had a cessation experience, and I'll tell them in the interview you've had a cessation experience, and they're like, okay, but you can see in their mind they don't really believe you. And then two hours later they're just walking down the street, and then boom, there's all this euphoria that arises. And then I'll say, I told you so. Mark, I had a long time ago, I was at a dance workshop, and we were doing this exercise, and we had to trust and fall into somebody's arms, fall backwards.

And then I came to my turn and I knew I had to let go and let somebody catch me, and I really let go. Between deciding to fall and being caught, I disappeared. Oh, sort of like Ananda when he experienced Nibbana just before he hit the pillow. Yeah. I went off a week now. Yeah. Just a little clarification. If you have a winking out, what's called a cessation, if you touch the Nibbana element, do you see the links? Yeah. Yeah. Right. But some people just don't see the links at all, because their discernment isn't as sharp. But it's followed by great amounts of relief still, which means they've still encountered at least the feeling link.

I'm sorry, is that it? Well, yeah, I just, I haven't, sorry, I still haven't got the sequence business. This would be my problem. So when you have the contact, you see, then immediately you see the links, which are from those patterns of that link. So, that's the link, they're the most basic form of dependence on the region actually presenting itself. And then you go around the circle again and you come to feeling, that's when you have a feeling. Right.

Yes. That's when craving can kick in. Yeah. If craving doesn't kick in, what does that mean? In the sense that you don't have any strong sense of joy or relief. That's right, there's equanimity there. Equanimity. Yeah. That would mean that's anagami, and if there's no identification there, then the work is done. Yeah, so here's another way of looking at it. Like this, this bell, right, this singing bowl. I make contact with it, and now all kinds of sound vibrations are coming out of it. So having made contact with Nibbana, the vibrations come up in the form of feeling, which are conditioned by that contact. That's what's going on.

So whatever squiggles people see, circles, whatever it is, that's just vibration happening. And your mind is perceiving that vibration, certainly. That's it, depending upon your faculties. Yeah, of course. It seems to me that it's a really critical moment when you have the contact, and you've got to have a really strong way from this. Yes. And would you say that that is something that you have to develop through day to day, to dig mindfulness? It helps that. - Correct. - That's one thing that we've got from this. Actually, it's what you do, quote, off the question. Yeah. - And I think one can do a bit of da-ti-da-ti-da kind of mind there for one.

So it's, you're not really practicing work. So the love from that, sorry, I've never asked a question, so you have to indulge me. - No, please. It's always, it's been kind of, it's a question I should have asked many times. So, is there a way of converting that expression in that critical moment when you see links into a full-blown experience, too strong of mindfulness, or not? A sense that's really important. Yeah, that point is critical, as you just pointed out. It's absolutely critical, but it's automatic. You see, it's automatic because it's dependent on all of the stuff that you've done that's led to that moment, that crucial moment. Just like the death process, that moment is so critical.

Yeah, I just want to jump back to the transcendental Dhamma, and transcending, transcending what, and at what level? So we talked about stream entry, and that's one of the eight noble verses, that's one of the eight attainments. So is each attainment transcending those fetters connected with it, and then ultimately is it the transcendence of dukkha entirely, and the complete total understanding, becoming of the path? So the arahant doesn't try to become a Dhamma teacher, the arahant is the Dhamma. So it's the sort of, the anagami, the satagami, the... Sotapana. Sotapana that are, you know, kind of in the triangle, right? Right. And that's the triangle.

Yeah. And that's why it's transcendence. Right, but it's transcendental at the very beginning, if you're transcending because you're one suffering, right, and you have faith. You've transcended suffering already to some degree. Yes, of course. That's why stream entry feels so awesome. Well, even before that. Yeah. Because, I mean, I remember when I first found the Dhamma, I was like, oh, wow. And that was the faith and pamoja, kind of all at once. Yeah. Like the gladness. And it was glad. But I hadn't quite started to practice yet. Yeah. And I can see that each step is sort of an evolution of personality. Isn't that right? Then the next, then joy.

Yeah. And to be joyful is evolutionary from the flatness, of course. Right. So each step transcends the previous. Big wow, bigger wow, bigger. These are just a chip with a big wow. That's right. But at the big wow of stream entry, there's not a backsliding into... Smaller wows. Smaller wows. Wow could be eight miles. That's right. Is that it? This is the last day, guys, lest you regret it. I was just going to ask if you could expand more on the joy that arises post contact with the divine. Does it always have to be this intense joy, and if it's not the intense joy the first time around, it's

absolutely intense, because it's unlike anything you've experienced. Literally, when you experience that, you drop the first three fetters. The joy, your mind doesn't even realize it, but because the formations have been going around for countless lifetimes, they're like, wow, I don't have to go back to hell anymore. That's a big relief, right? That joy is just unlike anything you've ever experienced, and the relief that's there, I mean, it goes, it's so pervasive that people don't sleep, they can't sleep. It's just there all the time, and then it tapers off, like everything that's conditioned, after a couple of days, after three, four days, whatever it might be. So that joy is not piti, that joy is not sukha, that joy is not pamoja, that joy is not mudita. It's just a transcendent joy. Then I just suppose for Dhamma teachers we don't really have to go here, but noble rebirth would be an important thing to factor in for students, because someone could come to them who's already had this experience but they're not necessarily aware of it. That's

right, that's right, exactly, that's right. So for some teachers they need to have the psychic faculties to be able to realize, oh, this person was already a stream enter. That's right. And I will tell you that there are students who have been stream enters before coming to the path, and they have experienced, but not that level of joy. That's true. And at the anagami it's equanimity. That's equanimity. Yes, so you don't experience that joy. You don't. That's right. Yeah, it can be. It can be, sometimes it can be like just this boom of, like, whoa, just euphoria that happens, and sometimes it's just some people just focus more on the relief of it rather than the euphoria of it.

And it's like every muscle and sinew in the body is just relaxed. Yeah. I have another question in a different direction. I just want to say, as the retreat manager, at the Easter retreat that you were in, somebody came up to me afterward and they couldn't talk. And it was during the downtime. Yeah. I mean, they say silicon upon here. That's right. It's not the first time. So, the retreat prior to the one that we, it was the last year's retreat you're talking about. We had two people experiencing that.

I didn't want to overstate this. But we did have two people. Just for the record, during the talk, hey, I take no credit here. This is just the Dhamma. It's the Buddha's word. So in Bodh Gaya, I had somebody who was completely new to the Dhamma. And he was, well, I mean, he was a semi-alcoholic, let's say. He was on his way to becoming an alcoholic. And so the people who were in his life were concerned and said, you should do this retreat. So he came and did this retreat in Bodh Gaya. And he was meditating and he just had an experience, and he said, wow, my whole field of vision just became bright white and I had all of this joy and relief.

And yeah, he had the experience. Then while he was listening to 148, six sets of six, you could see he was just in his chair like that, just blissing out. And he said, I had another experience then. The next day he was listening to 143 and he had the same experience again. So, upon hearing, is quite possible. I'm just thinking, I'm still a beginner in all this, but I feel overwhelmed a lot of times. All the things that we discussed about what comes first, what comes after, is this happening at this stage, what, and what, when, blah blah blah. My question would be, does it even matter if I just sit? Who cares what stage? I mean, who cares what it is? Just sit and whatever is, is. Instead of trying to figure it out, because I know the more I try to figure it out, I'm actually hearing myself, like, oh darn it, I didn't get that stage. Oh my God, what's wrong?

It's been three hours and I have gone. And I find that when I started, I had no idea what I was doing and I had no problem. So I feel like sometimes knowing more actually slows me down in my practice. So is it okay to let go of all of this? Absolutely. Please let go. Just ignore me. Well, this was a different area, but a sort of high Zen over here was you were talking about intuition. Yeah. And it's something we don't talk about a lot, but it's, how can I say this? I don't believe in a traditional God as a kind of a messed up, it's like perfect Santa. But I mean, I strongly feel that all of us are flowing together here.

And so I have something I do sometimes, which is similar to prayer, which to me feels like just standing on the edge of what you know and speaking to the unknown. And it may be as simple as, if it's in my highest, best interest, please show me what I should be doing next, because this whole thing sounds overwhelming. And it comes from the heart. It doesn't work very well. And I remember, I don't remember who it was, but it was some Catholic saint. I think it was a woman who said, well, people have enough faith to pray to God, but most people don't have enough faith to listen. And so there's this thing about, you know, just asking that and then God and the whole thing.

And I have gotten lots of corrections out of that. And it's usually the sort of thing that's essentially weird. So I like what you said about that, because if you think about it, intuition happens when the mind is quiet, and if the mind is quiet, that means the heart is full. And I find my mind is a lot quieter when I'm listening, when I'm speaking. Yes, yes, exactly. So, because intuition cannot be born from analysis, cannot be born from reflection, cannot be born from contemplation.

Intuition is what speaks outside of the scope of the thinking mind. So when you have a question, when you have some kind of doubt, just quieten the mind and ask the question and it will come to you. It will come to you. Intuition is this. It's not psychic. It's not a psychic faculty. It's not something that you need to, you know, develop like a psychic faculty. The only thing you have to develop is the ability to be present, to be able to hear what the intuition is saying. And it's like this aha moment, it's like a eureka. That's what's the answer. It's not coming from continuing to think and think and think and think.

And, you know, intuition is not just for meditation. I mean, you think about some of the greatest discoveries of the world. Scientists have been trying to figure out something and they keep analyzing, keep thinking, keep reflecting, and they don't get the answer. And then they just give up or they just let go. And it's either in the form of a vision or just all of a sudden. I mean, eureka, for example. The original eureka, where was it? It happened in a bathtub, right? He would just let go, and he was so relaxed he got the answer. So you cannot force intuition. That's the other thing. And I think in the West, it's a peculiarity that kind of split the mind apart, which doesn't exist in a lot of cultures.

And I think we talk about mindfulness, and I think it could, I don't know, see if you agree with that, because this is easily transformed into this place. Yeah. And actually, manasikara, yoniso manasikara. Manasikara literally means to take something to heart. Nelson, I'd like to go back to the Sunday night meditation. And I listened to that a couple of times since you did it. And prior to coming here, I don't think I've ever been paying any other jhana states. So when I listen to your meditation, it's a little bit like being a scuba diver, and always before, I've always been in the shallow areas next to the beach. When I listen to yours, that's something like meditation.

It's like swooping away from shore and I'm heading out and I get into a dark space and I'm just dangling there, and then the meditation brings us back and we stop, which is a little bit of a letdown. So I'm going to edit the tape so I can already from there go forward, but I'm just, after your advice, is going forward simply letting it go more often and more. Just rest in that clarity. And that's it. And then it will sink. It will get deeper. Will I sink? No guarantees. But yeah, it will only get clearer and deeper if you just let the mind rest in it. That's it.

And if things come up, in seeing them they soften and relax, and you just come back and you rest again. Right, right, but only when you need it. Otherwise all you gotta do is rest. Well, yeah, my favorite is that it won't go to the next song. Yeah. It won't go to my playlist or something. Yeah, oh, yeah. So in regard to that guided meditation, it seems like it was wholly directed toward folks who had some extensive practice in getting to the fourth jhana, and at that point, you know, going through the arupas into a clear mind. Yeah, okay. I just wanted to make sure that... Yeah, it is an advanced practice.

Yeah. That's why it's called the Conceit Destroyer. It's not to be taken lightly. You say that very humbly. I didn't make it up, by the way. It was Metananda who came up with that, Venerable Metananda, formerly known as Liam McClintock. That's right. Else? Are you delighted and satisfied? Alright. May suffering ones be suffering free, and the fear-struck fearless be. May the grieving shed all grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation.