9 Dec 2021 Q & A with Delson Armstrong second session

Hello everyone, I hope you're doing well. Welcome to the third and final Q&A of this retreat. You're welcome to ask any questions. Okay, I'll start then. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the mechanics, so to speak, of sharing or dedicating merit. Because I was wondering, is there some sort of merit account? Is that a karmic currency, and is there an interest rate? And how exactly does the shared merit benefit the recipient, especially thinking here about being stuck in lower realms, obviously? Yeah. So when we talk about sharing merit, like at the end of a Dhamma talk or meditation or something like that, just to clarify, the way I understand it is that you're really sending out loving kindness, and you're sharing loving kindness with all beings. So it's another way of practicing loving kindness. Now, the mechanics of sharing merit, you say, people or beings who are in the lower realms, or even in the higher realms, favor realms, things like that.

There are stories in what is known as the Petavatthu and the Vimanavatthu. The Petavatthu has to do with hungry ghosts, and the Vimanavatthu has to do with certain devas and favour realms and things like that. I don't know where it might be. I think it might be in the Minor Collection, the Khuddaka Nikaya, I'm not sure, but I got this from David Johnson, the Petavatthu. And basically in there there are stories of how beings are told to dedicate merit

in order to bring that person or that being out of being a hungry ghost, for example. There's a particular story I recall, because I remember reading it for one of the talks I gave at Damasuka. It was the Halloween special talk on hungry ghosts, yeah. In that one, there was a story of a woman who became a hungry ghost, and the idea was for her to continue on to the next life, where she would actually have experienced a hell realm. But some sailors came across her, and they were told to provide some requisites to the Sangha, or to a Sangha member, and by doing so dedicate that merit to that particular being. So what happened is, because of that merit, that being then experienced, rather than a hell realm, they were around. So the idea, or the mechanics of it in terms of how it works, is to be able to go to a Sangha member and provide them some requisites, and then dedicate that merit of having provided those requisites to that single member to

towards the person that you have in mind, so that, may this merit be shared with, may this merit be dedicated towards so and so person. So the idea is that that person, that being that has gone into a next life, will experience the effect of that merit as a karmic ripening at some point or another in their life, including the well, even on the basis of formations that arise for them. Not necessarily, obviously, in real time, but is that how it works? Yeah, so it would basically elevate, let's say, their formations, or make their formations

Awesome. We would look at it from the perspective or the context of formations. What's happening is that merit is being felt by them as an experience. It's some kind of a pleasant experience, some kind of mental experience that they feel, which then gives rise, because of the contact with that experience, to specific formations. Okay. So those formations then help them to be even more elevated, even more uplifted, even more so on. Will they take the next rebirth in a more wholesome plane? Okay, all right, thank you.

I'm trying to think of how I could phrase, I was going to say, as a question rather than a comment, but take it as both, I guess, asking for your response. It's in response to that about merit. If you remember at the Halloween thing, there was someone who typed in a question, did the Buddha ever say this? And you said no. And that was me, as you may have guessed.

Most of those stories, as far as I know, come from Hinduism, and they're kind of folk tales that, as happens in many, many traditions, get picked up by whatever the developed religion is, so-called developed religion is, and used, appropriated for that religion's purposes, as Christianity and Judaism and others have done. They seem to me to be completely foreign to what I know of what the Buddha himself actually said, and very, very much in the Hindu tradition, where as soon as someone dies there's an incredible importance on doing all of the correct rites and making the offerings in order to aid that person on their passage into the afterlife.

But of course in a very different sense of what kamma is and what the goal is really. So, yeah, I guess that's the common part, and the question would be, what do you think of that? I do recall that question, and I don't think I've ever personally come across it, but there was a comment by somebody on that video who noted that actually there was one of the stories in which the Buddha did mention something about it, but it could have still been in the Petavatthu. I do understand what you're saying in terms of the appropriation from Brahmanical and Hindu traditions, and I think what they did, instead of saying why do, what they call it is tarpanam, and they call it something to do with the pitar, which means the ancestors. So you help the pitar, tarpana, which is helping the ancestors to make sure that they have a better journey in the afterlife, and so on. So I do recognize that, and that's definitely important and worth mentioning.

And it does deviate from really what is the essence of the path, which is just freedom from suffering in this life, but I think the intention behind that also uplifts the person. It helps them be uplifted as well. Yeah, that I can see would be very much, as you started out saying, the offering of loving kindness. So yeah, I can also add a comment: I don't think that it is in the way of giving your own kamma away or things like that, because in the five daily recollections

which you can find in Anguttara, Book of Fives, number 57. It says: I am the owner of my kamma. I am born of my kamma. I live supported by my kamma. I will inherit my kamma, whatever I do, whether good or evil, that I will inherit. So I don't think you can see this sharing of merit as being able to give your kamma away to help another being as such. That would be at least how I understand it. Yeah, I'm in agreement with that too, because yeah, you are the inheritor of your karma, and nobody can take your karma away from you. This is an idea that's taken from, let's say, some New Age beliefs and things like that, where the karma can be mitigated by certain things and people can take away negative karma and things like that. No, absolutely not. But I do feel that you might influence other people so that they are able to create better karma by your example or whatever.

And I would also put forward the idea that even just sending loving kindness, as we do with regards to sharing merit, has some kind of effect. Obviously it's not scientifically proven, but I would say that there is some kind of effect to be felt by the individual who receives that loving kindness, in one way or another, whether it's because the person who is sending loving kindness, in this case, let's say, a more practical example, they are sending loving kindness to a person, but then that translates to loving and kind words, or a loving and kind tone of speech, and loving and kind actions in one way or another, and that person experiences them. Now, as to when we talk about sending loving kindness out all throughout, and maybe another person out somewhere else, that's a matter of, that's something else entirely, and some people do feel it and some people don't, and if they feel it they feel it. But we can't really speak about how that whole process works, except to say that there are cases, or there are examples

of people who have reported that when they sent loving kindness to somebody halfway around the world, they somehow felt it, or they somehow were reminded of them and decided to call them, or whatever it was. So in the same way, I think using that principle, the idea of sharing merit or dedicating merit to another person, another person in a hungry ghost realm, would be, as I said in the previous answer, where that experience is felt, and the feeling or the contact with that experience is what gives rise to, let's say, the potentials for wholesome formations to come about, or to strengthen potentially some formations that can then take root at the dissolution of that life, to then give rise to a new, better place.

Yeah, makes sense. Vaguely tied into that, I was also wondering about, well, officially in Theravada Buddhism, unlike in certain Mahayana traditions, mind-to-mind transmission isn't the thing, really, or at least it's not spoken of. I mean, from the impression that I got under the hood, there's still quite a bit going on, and certainly what you just said about the loving kindness, the effect it has on others, and certainly I have felt it. You know, it is a kind of transmission, if you will. So I was wondering if you have any more comments on that.

Yeah, I think, based on my own experience, we did an experiment while I was in Damasuka, for example, and there were four of us over there, and we were going through each of the jhanas, first, second, third and fourth, and so on. Then we did a little different experiment, where I said, okay, let's see if he can send out loving kindness to each. I'm going to send loving kindness out to this particular person, and then this person is going to send out loving kindness to them, and just see what happens, and see if you feel it. So we did it, and in the case of one individual, they started sending out loving kindness

The other person who was the subject, or the receiver of that loving kindness or compassion, said they felt this immense wave of relaxation coming into them. That was their subjective experience. It was an interesting experience when the experiment was done with oneself and this other particular individual, and I sent out loving kindness to them. What they said was they were unable to send loving kindness back, because the force of that loving kindness was so huge that it was almost physical, like it was pushing them back. Now, if that's a placebo, if that's a subjective experience, that's what it was. But regardless, it definitely uplifted people's minds.

And do you think they can be? Sorry, no. I would just say I wonder if there could be some way to create some kind of scientific, rigorous scientific experiment that can see what's actually happening, as you said, under the hood of the mind, and if there's something going on or if it's a placebo effect, or who knows. Difficult research design. I mean, yeah, but yeah, interesting. There was one individual who told me about something known as the

morphic field or morphogenetic field, which is what they're contemplating could be happening when it comes to these. Who knows. Well, there's certainly some form of information that gets transmitted in one form or another, but I was also thinking about, for example, certain more esoteric Buddhist sects that use it to transfer understanding of the Dhamma, if you will, from one person to another, allegedly. So, as I said, from what I've seen or been around in Theravada, it's not really talked about. Still, my impression is that certainly in some monasteries there are things going on, obviously within the monastic community, but anyway it's probably difficult to say anything about that because we would be part of that community anyway. Interesting, but also vaguely related to that, again, than the abhinnas, the higher knowledges or the powers.

I mean, again, I know that both in the suttas, for example, it is generally cautioned against indulging in them for obvious reasons, because people can get such an unhealthy obsession with cidis or idis but i was wondering like and i understand if i understand correctly then the attainment of the of the jhanas is like the prerequisite for being able to start developing them at all if one is interested in developing them at all but are there also are they related to attainment levels then uh or is that basically

Yeah, once you have a good skill of the jhanas, you can go that way if you're so inclined. And then also another question, which I don't quite understand: there are the six powers, but then often the direct understanding of the Dhamma is also understood to be in abhinnas. So is that then some kind of direct download you may get after a certain level of whatever attainment skill? Yeah, so when we talk about the six, the six powers or the six abhinnas, they're basically what they're known as, are super knowledges or higher knowledges.

And they're basically categories of, let's say, powers. You have telepathy. You have doing certain things with the four great elements, manipulation of the four great elements, which lead to things like walking on water or walking in the air or diving deep into the earth, and so on, or being able to become many bodies and things like that.

So this is all manipulation of basically molecules for the different states of matter. This is what's really going on. Then you have the divine ear and the divine eye. So the divine ear is clairaudience, being able to recognize things from far distances, even celestial distances, but along with that being able to read others' minds and things like that. I really don't know why you would want to read other people's minds. I think your own mind is quite enough, a little bit. But then you have the divine eye, which is being able to have clairvoyance, being able to do things like remote viewing, or seeing celestial objects or beings going through the different realms of existences, and things like that. Then you have the knowledge of past lives.

Knowledge of your own past lives. This is getting deeper into understanding formations, the questions and that caused the choices that you made in previous moments, in one life or in previous lives before that. That allows you to get a deeper understanding of dependent origination, because now you start to see how intention is influenced by formations and how formations influence intention, so on. Then you start to see the arising and passing away of beings, so you're able to then see how beings arise according to their kamma and how they fall cease according. And then the final is really what is known as the destruction of the defilements, the destruction of the taints, the destruction of the asavas. Now, there are people with inborn traits, or as we understand in the suttas and even outside of the suttas, because of being in the Himalayas and other places, there are people who report or who claim that they can read others' minds or who can do certain kinds of cities or iddhis, as you said in Pali, and so they didn't develop jhana necessarily, but within this particular

let's say tradition or this particular school of thought, the idea is you need a jhanic mind, and really what that means is you need a mind that is collected enough. And then we talk about the iddhipadas, and those are the four bases of spiritual power, and those are needed for any of the higher knowledges, wasn't needed for any of the six higher knowledges, which means when you are in jhana, whether you know it or not, you are developing adas, but not for the sake of developing psychic faculties, but for the sake of the destruction of the taints. So none of these, with the exception of the sixth higher power, have to do anything with the attainments.

Only the sixth one, which is the destruction of the asavas, is basically a destruction of any of the factors for rebirth or any more being. And so when you attain arahatship, then you are an arahat who has sixth higher knowledge, but that is always associated with the arahat. And then you have different types of arahats: the arahats who have developed the six higher knowledges, or who haven't developed the six higher knowledges, and then there are the arahats who have the analytical knowledge, and there are those who don't have the analytical, and so on. But an arahat by definition is known as a khinasava, one who has destroyed the taints, one who has destroyed the defilements, and by that definition they have attained that particular higher knowledge, the sixth one. Okay.

So would that then also, I mean, the whole issue of having direct understanding of the Dhamma would then also be having the complete picture, which basically means having attained arahatship? Is that the case, right? So when you go through the attainments, how it's understood is you have a preview, or you have some understanding, and then it becomes clear with each attainment what the Dhamma is in essence, the links of dependent origination and how they work. And then in arahatship you have a complete understanding of that. So because of that complete understanding there's no more fuel for the taints from arising. The reason the taints arise in the previous attainments is because there is still an I am there, there is still a clinging of self to that experience, that post-cessation experience. There's still an identification with it, they're still craving for it to happen again. But then the entry into arahatship would indicate that that mind sees it for what it is, that experience of cessation and the experience of post-cessation, and touching or making contact with the nibbana element.

All of that is impersonal. All of that is anatta, so none of it is taken to be a source of clinging or craving for, and therefore you have the destruction of being, the desire for being, a taint of ignorance, and a taint of sensual craving. In fact, in the case of the anagami, the taint of sensual craving is gone anyway, because they have no more craving, but the taint of being is still there, and the taint of ignorance is still there. So that is completely destroyed, and you're in arahatship, right? Okay, thank you.

Well, I have some questions, a few questions, more specifically about practice I suppose. Um, yeah. Closer to my practice I suppose is one, well, to do with cessation and path and in fruition and such. One is, I think in the readings from Kama, there was one of the questions and answers, was it Bahia, where he asked the wrong, he asked the right question finally, but at the end, instead of at the beginning. In there, he asked, I think it's, is it that one? - It's Kamabu, I think you're talking about. - Okay, I should get the names right, so he's not maligned. He asks at one point, how does one enter into cessation?

And the response is that the mind is prepared before for entering into cessation. And then he says, well, how does one exit cessation? And is the same given the same response? And I can see how we are preparing our minds for entering cessation, but I don't. How is it that we are preparing the minds for exiting cessation? This addresses partly the fear that the self-fear feels, or my self feels, I assume it's fairly common, in confronting the notion or the approach of cessation. What if it's forever?

Right, right. It won't be forever, and you're not going to die. No one ever has. I'll let you know. So far I've never heard of anybody dying. But that's an interesting one, because Kamabu Sutta, that whole section, that whole part, is also in Majjhima Nikaya 44, which is the dialogue between Dhammadinna and Visakha. And there is a similar kind of statement about cessation or entering into cessation in Majjhima Nikaya 43. There's a difference in language. Now, as to whether that difference in language is because of the Pali or whether it's because of the English translation of the Pali, we can't be sure, because I have to go through it and make sure, see what exactly it says in it. But based on the English translation I can say this much: the understanding is one is an attainment and one is a predetermined experience.

So how do you come out of cessation is already predetermined through your intention? So this is for somebody who has already mastered the determinations, and somebody who decides that they want to get into cessation. So it's prepared to the extent that the mind knows that it'll enter into cessation and be there for a period of time, and then after the period of time comes out. Whereas the attainment itself, you cannot intend that attainment. There's a difference. There's the nirodha samapatti, which is the ability to remain in the cessation experience for a predetermined time, and there is the attainment, which has to do with the actual entering the cessation and the weakening or the destruction of certain fetters. That second one, that latter one, happens not through some kind of predetermined... that's why it's indicated that he does not have the idea that I will enter into cessation or I am in cessation. Whereas in the first case there is an intention of remaining in there with the idea that it's predetermined. Okay, yeah. Now, as for the fear of the cessation experience

that's quite common actually i mean so far i say that from my experience with the participants that i've had in the retreats that i've conducted and that really is a couple of things that's really um the conceit starting to fade away and you start to see that in neither perception or non-perception where the sense of self is the weakest there it's receded quite a bit and so that fear and that anxiety that comes about and it can manifest in different ways it can manifest in the physiology is just the mind that is afraid to what it thinks is death because for it for for for the mind to die means that the mind stops so it is kind of a mini death if you will from the perspective of the mind from the perspective of the personalized mind the mind that takes it personal and the way to let that go is to see that in itself as a hindrance so seeing that anxiety and seeing it as being just restlessness

And then using the six R's to let it go and relax into it and tranquilize. Then there's a space between experience and the actual event, and so when you start to relax into that space, then that anxiety, or whatever might happen, or whatever has happened in the way of that fear, that process of fear dissolves. It dissolves in that tranquil. When you take it as a hindrance and you relax it as a hindrance, and you have to do it over and over, you might have to do it. So with that information, or with that understanding, you might not do it the first time around. You might not do it the second time around, but you learn from it, and then eventually it comes to a point where you do recognize that, oh okay, I've already been here before. I know the fear. I understand the anxiety. I understand this. That understanding is the knowledge of knowledge and vision of things as they really are. That understanding of seeing it as it actually is, seeing reality as it actually is, is that equanimity.

Because of that equanimity there's a disenchantment there, because now you've seen it before and you don't care about it anymore. You say, okay, I've seen this experience. I know this experience of fear. It hasn't done anything to me in the past, it's not going to do anything to me again. And then that develops this passion, and if you stay with it and just relax, relax, relax, and let go of any of the conceit about him, there is cessation. Yeah, thanks. My suspicion has actually been that, especially lately, that this sense of cessation approaching is in fact manufactured by the self in order to create that, set up that fear, and thus constructing a hindrance right from the start. And I sense this perhaps it happens much more quickly without

such preamble. Generally, does the continuum with cessation, generally, is it... this is also coming from your discussion of nirodha. Is it that it's very brief the first time and then it gets longer as you progress through the path? Usually it is quite brief. Now the thing is, you can't really tell in terms of the time duration, but it probably lasts only a few minutes. Sorry, a few moments. Let me correct myself. A few moments.

So it might just be a couple of seconds, and then come back up and you say, what was that? Now, as for the duration lasting longer, again you couldn't really tell unless you were somehow timing it and had some brainwave detector or something to be able to go, okay, this was how long it was. But I would probably guess that it's again just a few seconds, just a few moments. It's only when you start to get into developing the experience of getting into nirodha in a conscious manner, you know, intentional manner, is where then you can start to determine how long it will be. It could be anywhere from a few seconds, if you determine so, up to seven days. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, that's interesting. Does the sense of relief... yeah, this is moving into path and fruition, which I haven't really ever understood. I mean, even at a conceptual level. When you speak about relief that is felt, is that stronger with attaining the path, that is the first time, or is it stronger the second time when you...

It's the first time. It seems like it's the first time. The second time around, and so on after that, it's not as strong. There's still relief there, yeah. There's still relief there, but it's not as potent the first time around. Why? Yeah, well, two things I guess. One is, why are they conceived of separately as path and then fruition? And looking at it from the outside logically, it seems like there are eight stages. Why are they paired in that way? Well, I think it comes from the suttas generally. I think there are some cases in the suttas where the Buddha talks about the eight types of individuals, that is to say the stream enter, the stream free mentor with fruition, and then sakadagami, sakadagami fruition, anagami, anagami fruition, and arahant, and arahant with fruition. My sense of that is that it's just another experience, another cessation experience, that solidifies the experience, that solidifies the understanding, that confirms for that particular mind that here

it's done. You know that. So in the case of the path, let's say with the stream enterer, that's when the fetters are destroyed, and the fruition is a confirmation that the fetters have been... In the case of the sakadagami, it's the weakening and a confirmation that it is weak. In the case of the anagami, it's the destruction of the craving and the aversion, and then the fruition is the confirmation of that. And likewise with the arahant, the destruction of the five higher fetters, and the confirmation is to destroy. So I would say fruition is more of a confirmatory experience than and does one always need to go through fruition, or do people sometimes they will go through fruition whether they do it intentionally or not? In the sense that if they have the experience of fruition, they have it in meditation

or they'll have the experience of fruition at death. Yeah, okay. But you couldn't... people don't ever skip from directly having the path experience of, say, sotapanna and then moving to sakadagami? No, I haven't heard of the case. Yeah, okay. I thought I'd give other people a chance. I'll just go back to cessation for a bit.

Do I understand it correctly that, obviously, if there is an attainment event, then you have an insight into the links of dependent origination arising but prior to that is that kind of is god i don't know how to work this um are there instances where you kind of dip your toes into the territory uh meaning that you you kind of have like a mini cessation event but without necessarily obviously even not definitely not clearly seeing links of dependent origination because then it would be an attainment event but prior to that is that kind of like you have a you have an exploratory experience where something arises but it's not like uh an in-depth experience of the whole thing see what what goes on is when you get into neither perception or non-perception there comes a point where there are like these let's say mini micro cessation events where it's like the mind dips up and down yeah it's not slot and torpor it's not slot and torpor because the mind is quite alert still radiant um still sharp but it's what's happening is the circuitry that allows for the experience of perception starts to diminish

in the brain, and so there's like this bubble of going into cessation, or what seemingly would be cessation but not fully. It's just perception coming in and out, perception, perception and feeling coming in and out, because now there's no external stimuli. Now what's happening is just in the mental realm, and because of the quietude, the immense and utter quietude of the mind without any mental stimulation, the healing won't arise as often and eventually won't arise at all. So there are these dips, and then there are also previews, let's say, in the sense of seeing the links of dependent origination prior to your complete cessation experience. The reason being is you start to get up and close and personal with formations. You actually start to see formations. You start to see the beginning of craving. You start to see how feeling comes up and creates this experience. You start to see when the contact arises in the mind, and they arise in the form of different things, like

like uh you know in in the mind's eye so to speak in the meditation like little glimmering stars that's the beginning of craving starting to see that or you see like bursts of light that's the formations that arise dependent upon the experience of releasing something experience release from a hindrance then you're actually starting to see because your mindfulness is getting so close and sharp in neither perception non-perception that you start to see the formations coming and going based on that experience of release you are seeing those but there is still there's not enough uh depth in the mind until after cessation where everything is completely let go and there's no clinging you're seeing things without that grasping

That's why it said liberation through not grasping, by not grasping, seeing the links of dependent origination, without personalizing, without identifying, without grasping, and then the experience of nibbana. That's the end. Okay, yeah, thank you. Well, I have more, and a couple of questions related to the eighth jhana then. One is fractals. It's the only term I could think of for it. It seemed to me a while ago, while I was in quiet mind, that I kind of did a mini replay of the previous four jhanas, but smaller, if that makes sense. Like fractals, that's the only thing I could think of. And then it occurred to me that in the way that there are four jhanas, and then the fourth splits into the arupa, which then splits into the four arupa jhanas, maybe in the eighth jhana it further splits into these. Probably not very significant, but it was an interesting observation, I thought.

Yeah, when you say fractals, you're talking about the fractals of the experiences of the first four. Yeah, exactly. it seemed like yeah it seemed like they're they're in the way that the four harupa john is in some ways are different from but um repeat the four rupa john as it seemed that there were four stages in a way um this only happened once but i was curious about it yes and in that sense yeah there's a couple of things to see there one is in either perception non-perception there's actually levels of quiet mind so you start to experience quiet mind in a very dream-like state it's like you're awake and asleep at the same time and you start to see disconnected thoughts and things like that and then the quiet mind gets even quieter and quieter and quieter and subtler until finally there's nothing there at all there's no vibration going on at all now the second thing i'll say uh points to what you were talking about which is what's quite possible is that you were revisiting or the same formations that arose dependent upon the experience of those jhanas came about

Because this is really, as I said, at the neither perception non-perception level, where you come up and close up and personal with the formations. So perhaps the formations that arose were from the formations that were induced by the experience prior, on the four jhanas. Okay, make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, I'll have to think about it if it happens again. But again, it's not a big deal. It's just one of those things, and that's the more important factor.

Formations will arise, and they'll arise in different ways. You'll have experience of jhanas. You'll have experience of past lives, possibly. You'll have experiences from things that seemed like they were from your childhood, or from even your infancy, and other people's childhood. Well, it would have been yours in the past life, who knows. But regardless of what that quality of formation is, when you experience it, all you have to do is let it go. Just keep letting go.

The other, I suppose, last question on this topic was the quiet mind itself in terms of how it fits in. it's not mentioned in the first time I came across it was when David Johnson isn't wasn't David Johnson's book but in the MN 111 there's no quiet mind there and there's no quiet mind in any of the other the only thing the only the other accounts of the stages in that I've come across in the Nakayas. The only thing I thought of was, I've always taken when Saraputta comes out of NPNNP and then reflects on what happened, I've always taken that as, which seems natural, as returns to a normal everyday state, but maybe at that point he's actually moving into quiet mind.

That's the only thing I could think of, but I wondered if you had other moments or thoughts on it. Yeah, so I just saw this comment which says NP NNP is equal to quiet mind. So the experience of neither perception or non-perception itself is quiet mind. In other words, quiet mind is the modern way of saying the perception. It's the equivalent. It's basically the experience of neither perception and non-perception is quiet mind itself. Okay. We call it quiet mind. Yeah.

It seemed to me that I came out of it into a very different kind of mental state. I came out of NP and NP. So when you came out of it, meaning after your meditation? No, I mean in the meditation. It seemed to me that after being in that, in quiet, and when I think of this quiet mind, I'm actually quite aware of what is going on. So that's thinking about it, that's getting into the territory of the signless state, the signless collectedness of mind. This is mentioned in Majjhima Nikaya 121 and a few other places. There's a whole section in which Mahamoggallana is going through each of the jhanas, and the Buddha says, go into this state, go into this state, and finally he says, take the signless collectedness of mind. And the signless collectedness of mind is really

what happens when the quiet mind becomes subtler and subtler and subtler, and finally even that quiet mind, as an object, say, or as a level of perception, is coarse. That also just completely disappears, and all there is is just this, let's say, ray of awareness that doesn't land on any kind of object. It's like an objectless meditation. So this is the signless collectedness of mind. Some people have indicated that the signless collectedness of mind could be quiet mind as well. I'll give them that. It could just be quiet mind on a very, very, very quiet state. But I see it as being a separate stage. I see it as being like jhana 8.5

in the sense that it's just before the experience of cessation of perception field, or it could also be the void mind or the undirected mind. Right? Yes, that's right, because we actually have three, just to get things more interesting. We have the signless collectedness of mind, we have the void collectedness of mind, and we have the undirected. What these are basically pointing to is the same kind of experience, but from a different angle. The insight into impermanence makes the mind disinterested in any kind of object, and therefore there are no nimittas there. It's an animitta samadhi, which is to say objectless. So that's why we say signless. No signs there. There's no interest in taking anything as an object. Then we have the void, which understands, or rather, let's say we have the undirected, which is to say

the insight into dukkha makes one realize that any object seen as being conditioned, therefore not worth holding on to. So there's the disinterest. There's no intention to direct the mind anywhere, just this undirectedness. And then finally you have the insight into anatta, which gives the experience of voidness or emptiness, which is the quality of that state, but also the understanding that all things are empty of self. Because of that insight there is also that experience. So you can call it signless. You can call it void. You can call it undirected collectedness of mind.

So jhana 8.5, okay. Subsection B. And that was Sutta 121, Majjhima Nikaya? 121, yeah. It's the Shorter Discourse on Emptiness or Voidness. Oh yeah, okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Any other questions, any last questions? Another question, but I just wanted to express my gratitude to everybody who helped make this retreat possible. It has really deepened my understanding and elevated my practice, so thank you to really everybody in front of and behind the scenes. It's been such a great experience. Thank you. Yeah, so before, actually, I was going to do the same. Go ahead. I was just going to say yes, thank you to you and to Sil and to Kin. I was involved in it, and also my first guide in TWIM, and everyone else behind the scenes.

It's really been a great retreat. Happy to hear that. So I wanted to do the same thing, but you guys did it for me. But I also wanted to thank Sil and Ken, because they've helped facilitate these Q&As and they've been working in the background. And of course, Kuhn, who's sort of the architect of the matrix. He's the one who's looking at the schedules and making sure everything's all in alignment, and so on. Special thanks to him and everybody else, and thank you all, because you guys made the effort, progressed immense ways last night. So thank you for doing the work. It makes my job much easier.

Cheers. Samarit may suffering once be suffering free, and the fear-struck be fearless. May the grieving shed grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired, for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power, share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Thank you, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this retreat. Thank you to Delson and everyone behind the scenes. If you'd like to do another retreat, we have the rule that people who haven't done a retreat with us before have priority, but there are often places still available, so in that case you can join anytime. Thank you very much. Bye, take care everyone. Bye. Thank you.