Delson explanation of SN 35.95 the Malunkyaputta sutta at GTOG Sunday session

Good evening, everyone. Before I start reading, I'll just give you a brief background on the sutta. There is a similar sutta like this, which is known as the Bahiya Sutta. And in that, the instructions that the Buddha gives are pretty much the same in terms of understanding what is being seen, what is being cognized, what is being sensed, and so on.

So what I would recommend is, in this process of listening to the sutta, is to really pay attention to the process of contact. Pay attention to what's going on when you listen to my voice as you hear me. Read the sutta and as I explain, and pay attention to what's happening when the sound hits your ear and what is going on in reference to the mind.

So you'll see why I'm requesting that as I read this. I'll start now. This is the Samyutta Nikaya, number 35.95. And the translation I'm going to be using is Bhikkhu Bodhi's. And this is known as the Malunkyaputta Sutta. Then the Venerable Malunkyaputta approached the Blessed One and said to him, "Venerable sir, it would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief, so that having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One I might dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent and resolute." And this is what the Buddha says here. "Now, Malunkyaputta, what should I say to the young bhikkhus when a bhikkhu like you, old aged, burdened with years, advanced in life, come to the last stage

asks me for an exhortation in brief?" So the commentary says that this particular statement by the Buddha, this questioning to Malunkyaputta, is both an admonishment as well as praise. It's praise because despite all his advanced age he's still striving for the Dhamma. He still wants to attain arahatship. He hasn't given up, and he's looking for a quote-unquote shortcut, something that he can reflect on very simply and very effectively and attain arahatship. And as a reproach, as an admonishment, it's basically because Malunkyaputta shows up a couple of times in the suttas and he's not really that serious with his practice. He asks the Buddha all kinds of unnecessary questions and things not necessarily related to the Dhamma in a direct way, and so the Buddha does give him those responses, but you get a sense that Malunkyaputta at that time was younger and not as dedicated to the practice as he is now. So it's a good way for the Buddha to explain to the younger monks, the younger monastics, to see that, you know

whatever age you are at, continue striving for the Dhamma and continue using right effort to come to the final stage of arahatship. And so here's Malunkyaputta's response: "Although, venerable sir, I am old aged, burdened with years, advanced in life, come to the last stage, let the Blessed One teach me the Dhamma in brief. Let the Fortunate One teach me the Dhamma in brief. Perhaps I may understand the meaning of the Blessed One's statement. Perhaps I may become an heir to the Blessed One's statement." So here's an interesting question the Buddha puts forth, and it's in relation to forms and sounds and odours and so on, as you'll see. But here's the question he asks first

He says, "What do you think, Malunkyaputta? Do you have any desire, lust or affection for those forms cognizable by the eye that you have not seen and never saw before, that you do not see, and would not think might be seen?" That's an interesting question. So the Buddha is saying, would there be any craving or aversion as well arising in seeing something, or in having something that has not been seen? So would you have craving in something or for something that you've never before seen? Would you have craving if you don't see it, and would you have craving if you had not thought of seeing it? Sometimes it could be that one can imagine

a scenario, one can imagine something that they've not seen before, but that is in relation again to having seen, in that present moment, the mind object, cognizing that object through the mind. So there's a process of actually understanding, in that present moment of seeing, through the mental experience. But here the Buddha is focused on, or primarily pointing towards, forms that have not been seen before. Would there be craving arising from that? Would there be craving arising from things that one does not actually see, if you had not seen it, or you do not see it, or would not think might be seen? Would there be craving? And Malunkyaputta says, "No, venerable sir," and rightly so, because if there is nothing that you've seen, in that feeling there is no personalizing happening. This is a very deep question to consider, because what you're seeing here is that

There's only a seeing happening that causes the feeling to be personalized when the contact is already personalized. But if there is no one seeing, if there is no self experiencing it, but that it's just a series of processes, and seeing that with mindfulness, impersonal mindfulness, then there won't arise any craving. So one aspect of this understanding is to understand it from the practical sense that if you don't see it, there is no potential for craving to arise. But a deeper understanding of this will be: if there is a seeing happening but there is no sense of a seer, then is the seeing actually happening, or is it just a process of certain things happening in relation to contact, feeling and perception? So he asked the same question in relation to the other sense objects

"Do you have any desire, lust or affection for those sounds cognizable by the ear, for those odours cognizable by the nose, for those tastes cognizable by the tongue, for those tactile objects cognizable by the body, or those mental phenomena cognizable by the mind, that you have not cognized and never cognized before, and that you do not cognize and would not think might be cognized?" So he asked the same kind of question in reference to the other five senses, the five physical senses, as well as the mind itself. So if there was nothing in the way of your mind, in a mental phenomenon, if there were no thoughts, if there was no thinking happening, because there was no joining, no contact between the thought and the mind, between, let's say, a reflection or an insight or any memory or anything that is a mental object, if there was no contact between that, could there be thinking? No. And therefore there could not be any potential

for attaching a sense of self to that thought process causing one to identify with it causing one then to personalize it and then perhaps crave or have aversion towards it or against it so the deeper understanding of this is if there are no thoughts present then there won't be any potential for craving but the deeper understanding is if there are still thoughts present is there mindfulness there to see those thoughts as impersonal that there is no thinker there there is just a collection of thoughts drifting by impersonal arising because of causes and conditions arising because of some contact that caused the mind to have some kind of thought

there is no thinker there now if you were to ask or if i were to ask you rather you find out what your next thought is think about your next thought you won't be able to you will only be thinking in the present moment whatever arises dependent upon different kinds of contact arising and passing away different kinds of sensations and feeling and experiences arising and passing away cannot think of something you can have the intention you have mindfulness and to put your attention on an object during meditation but there there is no thinking rather that is just samadhi that is collectedness that is the process of seeing mind as it arises and passes away in every moment dependent upon various contact dependent on various factors of the jhana and so on and so forth but if you try to think your next thought all you will see is there's nothing there

If you try to look back into the mind, you will see that there's nothing there. It is dependent upon some kind of contact. So if you have this understanding that the thoughts that are arising, that the thinking process that's arising, is just an impersonal series of cause and circumstances, cause and effect, causes and conditions, then there's no need to personalize it. You just have mindfulness to see it arising and going away. So he says, "No, venerable sir." And now here is the brief instruction that the Buddha provides. He says, "As here, Malunkyaputta, regarding things seen, heard, sensed, and cognized by you.

In the seen, there will be merely the seen. In the heard, there will be merely the heard. In the sensed, there will be merely the sensed. In the cognized, there will be merely the cognized. Then, Malunkyaputta, regarding things seen, heard, sensed, and cognized by you: in the seen, there will be merely the seen. In the heard, there will be merely the heard. In the sensed, there will be merely the sensed. In the cognized, there will be merely the cognized.

Then, Malunkyaputta, you will not be by that. Malunkyaputta, you are not by that. Then you will not be there in when Malunkyaputta, you are not there in. Then you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. This itself is the end of suffering. So it's a brief instruction, but it's very deep, so let's go through it bit by bit. Here the Buddha is talking about things that are seen, things that are seen by the eye, heard by the ear, sensed by the other sense faculties, cognized by the mind with perception and feeling and so on. So here the Buddha says, in the seen or in the heard or in the sensed or in the cognized, there is only that process happening

and what one has to understand is that in that there is just a contact happening between, let's say, with the eyes, the photons and the eye itself, the eye faculty, and the photon. When these two have an impact, when these two meet, there is eye consciousness. That is to say, there is an attention to what is being seen through the eye. This attention drives forward some kind of eye consciousness that is knowing of what is arising in the way of what is being seen

Let's go a step further back in this process. So this is the link of contact, dependent upon contact. You have the six sense bases. So in this case, when you talk about seeing, you have the eye faculty, you have the eyes themselves. Dependent upon these six sense bases is the contact. But the six sense bases are dependent upon nama-rupa, mentality and materiality. Six sense bases themselves are just form. They are basically just the four great elements, or molecules and atoms all put together, that create these different sense receptors on the physical level. So that is the materiality aspect of it. Through this process of seeing, there is contact, feeling, perception.

There is intention and attention. That is part of mentality. So dependent upon this mentality, materiality, there is the I faculty. And that I faculty then gives rise to the contact when there is the meeting of the external phenomena, the visual stimuli, and the eye itself. The stimulation of the eye then brings forward attention, an intention to pay attention to what is going on, which gives rise towards eye consciousness. Now in that mentality there is the potential for contact to arise. There is the potential for feeling to arise. There is the potential for perception to arise. There is the potential for intention and attention to arise. But it is all driven by the intention to see, to pay attention, from which then that contact arises, from which then that feeling arises, and the perception, and so on. But now let's go a step further back. Dependent upon consciousness is the mentality materiality. So this consciousness, which is activated through that process of intention, is leaning towards seeing what is there. But this consciousness is activated by fettered formations. This consciousness arises dependent upon fettered formations.

And these formations that arise, arise because of karmic impulses, because of certain kinds of contact that arise. And these formations are fettered by conceit, by craving, and by ignorance, and they are dependent upon ignorance. Ignorance here being the not understanding, or not applying, or not seeing the four noble truths. And then of course this ignorance is dependent upon the taints themselves, which is the taint towards having sensual craving, the taint towards having a sense of being, the taint of not seeing, or not able to see and apply and understand the four noble truths in every moment. So because this whole process arises due to that ignorance, the fettered formations that arise already have activated a consciousness that is also fettered by the conceit. There is already the sense of I am-ness when one considers, so to speak, when one sees the mentality materiality.

When one experiences the six sense bases, when one has the contact, there's already this conceit present. And so the contact that arises is seeing from a sense of I am, seeing something from a sense of I am, experiencing something from a sense of I am, feeling something. So because of that I-am-ness, because of that mana, because of that conceit, there is already the immense possibility of craving to arise. But it is at the level of the feeling and perception that that process can be eradicated bit by bit. That process can be understood through mindfulness and correct attention, through attention rooted in reality. So here the Buddha says all that is actually happening is just this process of impersonal

factors coming together. That is to say, the form, then the eye, the photons reflecting from that form into the eye, and the consciousness that arises. Now, this attention to what is happening is personalized already because of the fettered formations. The attention that is seeing what is happening is already having a sense of I am seeing this. But in the case of one who has let go of this completely, all there is is just this impersonal process of seeing. There's no sense of division that I am seeing this. It's all basically concepts. It's all just part of an impersonal process. The same with the eye and the form. There is no difference in the sense that neither is the form personal or personalized, nor is the eye personal or personalized. It is all made up of different causes and conditions, all happening dependent upon situations, dependent upon different causes and conditions. So there is just this happening. This is what the Buddha is saying regarding the seen, the heard, the sensed and the cognized. There is just merely the seen, merely the heard, merely the sensed and merely the cognized.

And when you see it in this way, so to speak, when you understand it in this way, you will not be by that. Meaning there won't be a sense of self that attaches to this process. And when you are not by that, you will not be carried away by it. And when you are not carried away by it, which means you will not be there, in, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Meaning you won't further accelerate this process of dependent origination by craving, by taking something personal, by clinging to it, then having a sense of being, and acting from there, from which suffering arises. So it is at that level of contact, feeling and perception that one has to be aware of what is happening. Is there some personalizing going on? Is there some sense of I am the one listening to this, rather than there is a process of listening happening? There is sound impacting the auditory nerves, and it is being interpreted by the mind. Those sounds are being interpreted by the mind

as words that are cognizable and understood. But in that whole process there is no self, there is no abiding self. And therefore when one understands this, one doesn't get carried away by it, one doesn't personalize it, one doesn't crave it, cling to it, have a sense of being to it, and act from there because of suffering. So this itself is the end of suffering, as the Buddha says. And so here is Malunkyaputta's response. He wants to confirm he understands what the Buddha is saying, and he says: I understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what was stated by the Blessed One in brief. Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,

attending to the pleasing sign, one experiences it with infatuated mind and remains tightly holding on to it. Many feelings flourish within, originating from the visible form, covetousness and annoyance as well, by which one's mind becomes disturbed. For one who accumulates suffering thus, Nibbana is said to be far away. Having heard a sound with mindfulness muddled, having smelled an odour with mindfulness muddled, having enjoyed a taste with mindfulness muddled, having felt a contact with mindfulness muddled, having known an object with mindfulness muddled, for one who accumulates suffering thus, Nibbana is said to be far away. So let's break this up. What Malunkyaputta is saying: I have seen a form with mindfulness muddled. Which means there is not any correct attention to what is being seen, meaning there is no real understanding of what is being seen. There is still this sense of I am. You see, even in the mindfulness, if there is a sense of I am being mindful of what is happening, there is still a potential for identifying with that process. This is why one just observes without any sense of self. One just observes this whole stream

arising and passing away in terms of contact, feeling and perception, and does not attach to it any sense of self. Just watches it come and go without any involvement. And there's a specific reason, as we'll see later on, why this is so important. This true mindfulness is to see things as they come about and as they go away. When the mind personalizes it and attaches to that middle point, where, having arisen, one takes that to be self, one takes that to be pleasing to a sense of self, or takes that to be painful to a sense of self.

Then one attends to that, one experiences it with a mind already befuddled, a mind that is infatuated. Now there is some tension that arises, a subtle tension inclined towards that thing: to possess it, to have more of it, to crave for it. Or on the flip side, to let go, to avert away from it, meaning to get irritated by it and push it away. So whatever is happening in this present moment, if there is this satisfaction with that present moment, it is because one sees that this is temporary, and one, if it's pleasant, wants more of it, or one takes this to be something affecting the sense of self in a painful manner and tries to push it away, instead of just watching the moment as it arises and passes away. In the same way, when one does this in the jhana process, in the process of meditation, then if one tries to see what is happening, if one identifies with what is happening, even with the object of meditation, that I am experiencing loving kindness, or I am radiating loving kindness, because of that conceited thought

because of that misunderstanding that understanding rooted in conceit there is craving in that meditation and because there's craving in that meditation there's attachment to that object there is a holding on to things when they arise and not letting them go so that one sees what else is arising and because of that that that fetter of conceit prevents one to continue on to experiencing nirvana continues to fetter and block one so to speak block the mind from dropping into cessation so instead of saying i am radiating or having a sense of of being radiating or being meditating just observe just watch what's going on don't even have a sense of an observer just relax into that moment in the meditation process

and just watch how the object arises because of the right causes and conditions. There's an intention to send out loving kindness. That intention starts to accumulate. This attention towards that loving kindness, that loving kindness is invited in, so to speak, and it grows because of that attention. And then the mind becomes collected around it. Watch this whole process in that way, rather than I am intending this loving kindness, I am paying attention to this loving kindness, or whatever it might be. And one starts to just meditate with that ease of mind, without any tension, without pushing, without trying to control or do anything with the meditation object.

To continue on here in reference to seeing a form, then one experiences that infatuated mind, that mind that starts to grab onto and holds tightly to that form. From there many feelings flourish. So what's going on now is there is craving giving rise to clinging. Now there are stories arising about it: I don't like this, or I like this because so and so and so. So this covetousness or annoyance arises, causing further disturbance in the mind. Then there's an accumulation of suffering, that is to say, an accumulation of tendencies that give rise to a sense of a being that acts, that speaks, that thinks. And then from there is the rebirth of that action, or that rebirth of speech, through that process of taking something personally, which then causes suffering. And so nibbana is said to be far away. Same thing with regards to a sound.

Right now, when you're listening to me, do you have a sense of "I am listening", or are you just paying attention without having any sense of someone paying attention? Just this pure mindfulness, relaxed, in this moment, understanding and seeing that there are sound consciousnesses arising and passing away. There is attention being given to the process of that contact, where the sound hits your auditory nerve, and then there is interpretation going on right now in the mind. But in that process, are you taking any of that personally? Are you projecting onto it something else? Are you comparing it with something that you're thinking about, in relation to something you heard before? Or are you purely just watching that process of hearing happening? So pay attention to that with mindfulness. See what is going on in the mind as you're hearing the sound. Likewise with smelling an odour, with having a taste, having contact with touch, having thinking about something in mind, and so on. And then he says, when firmly mindful, one sees a form, one is not inflamed by lust for forms.

One experiences it with this passionate mind and does not remain holding it tightly. One fares mindfully in such a way that even as one sees the form, and while one undergoes a feeling, suffering is exhausted, not built up, for one dismantling suffering. Thus nibbana is said to be close by. So here Malunkyaputta is saying, when firmly mindful, this basically means that the attention is purely on what is arising and passing away. In the seeing of the form, one is just seeing this impersonal process of contact, feeling and perception. But there is no person being mindful there. There is no person having contact there. There is no person feeling what is seen. There is no person perceiving. There is only this process happening, arising and passing away in every moment. And for this reason there's no person, there's no sense of personalizing to hook onto that form as affecting a sense of self, positively or negatively. Because of this there's this passion, this dispassion. Is seeing things with the mind that is cooled by mindfulness, and is just watching without any expectation, watching without any association

to any memory, without projecting onto what is being seen with any kinds of ideas or thoughts or personalized reflections. So there is no holding on going. So the mind is just purely watching without any involvement, without any identification. So when one does this in such a way, even as one is seeing, even as the mind is seeing, even as this process of contact is happening, this process of feeling happens because there's no craving whatever has arisen. In the way of old karma, remember we've talked about this before a little bit about old karma and new kamma. Old karma is everything from formations all the way up to contact, feeling and perception.

new karma is how that is taken if it is taken personally and one acts thinks or speaks from a personalized manner it causes new karma and that new comment accumulates more suffering to be felt and experienced at another moment whether in the next moment or another time after that maybe in the next year or even another lifetime if one is held on to it and so that new comma will then become the old comma to be experienced at the level of feeling and perception and that will happen at another moment but if you take that not to be personal if you see it as it arises and passes away and don't crave don't have any aversion don't have any reaction reactivity coming from a sense of self watch it with mindfulness be completely attentive with attention rooted in reality seeing it as impermanent seeing it as not worth holding on to and therefore not be not to be considered as self whatever is arising good bad or indifferent

In any situation, whether it's a conflict, whether it's a moment of joy, whether it's with one's relationships, whether one is alone, whatever is happening in that present moment, if there is no identifying going on, if there is no projecting going on, then that experience is there and it goes away. It no longer becomes identified with the sense of self. There will be memories of it, but even in those memories there won't be any craving for it, unless one gets carried away with it again and personalizes it and craves for it, has nostalgia and so on. So the experience of whatever is happening has to be seen as just arising in that moment and to be understood as going to be passing away. Because of this, the mind will not get carried away because of that correct mindfulness. The mind won't get carried away, won't have craving, won't create stories around it, and won't create reasonings for defending a sense of self, to have that or to want it or to push it away, and therefore have a sense of being from which one acts.

When there is just that cutoff point at feeling and perception, where one is just seeing it and doesn't have all of that, then there's no further suffering that is accumulated. Instead, the karma is being exhausted. This is how karma is exhausted in this process of karma and rebirth. And so when one dismantles suffering in this way, meaning one has seen through suffering in that process of jhana as well, one sees that there is a factor of jhana that arises.

But it's just a process. It arises and passes away. Even the object of meditation arises and passes away. A hindrance arises and passes away. All of these are also kammic factors, to be experienced, dependent on previous causes and conditions. And those causes and conditions could have happened in the few moments before, where the mind slipped in its mindfulness and so hindrances arose, or because a hindrance arose because of something that was done previously, where one broke a precept or whatever it might be. Or there's an enlightenment factor that arises because there is an intention to bring it up, using correct effort, using right effort, using the 6R's process. So you see how there's cause and effect in every moment, even in meditation, but it's only cause and effect. There's no personalizing going on. This part, once you let go of, in the process of meditation, you get closer to nibbana. So as Malunkyaputta says, it's in regards to as well hearing, listening to a sound right now, again when you're listening to my voice.

This is right now, in this moment, a process of kamma. You were experiencing this. But are you going to attach a sense of self to it and personalize it and crave more for it? If something happens, where, like last time, yesterday, this had happened, where a power outage happens and then you're not able to hear it again, is there going to be annoyance because the Dhamma talk was cut off shortly? Or do you understand that was the process and let go of it? So that's just one example. But in this sense of listening to my voice right now, see what is happening in the process. Is there a projection of "I am" to this process, or is it all just happening on its own through a series of causes and conditions, dependent upon a series of causes and conditions?

Likewise with smell, likewise with taste, likewise with touch, and likewise with thinking. In the process of thinking, if you get caught up in that thinking, it will only cause further proliferation. Whatever the thought might be, good, bad, or indifferent, it arose because of some kind of contact. Of course, if it's a thought that causes ill will, that causes unwholesome states of mind, in that process of recognizing, using the right effort, using the 6R's process, in that process of recognizing, letting it go, relaxing, coming back to the re-smile, then coming back to something that is wholesome, you are actively dealing with that kamma by letting it go rather than pushing it or pulling it or whatever else. It's a process of continually letting go

observing and letting go whenever craving and aversion arises. So when this happens, even when a joyful thought arises, is that thought personalized and identified with, so to such an extent that if it goes away, or while you get caught up in the thought, somebody disturbs you, do you get annoyed at that? Or do you realize that you got caught up and let go of it? So just let the thoughts go by without any interference

to see them as a process of different causes and conditions arising and passing away, drifting by. You can use that analogy of just watching the road in front of you. Let's say you're sitting at the side of the road and you're watching cars go by, and each car is a thought. Would you get caught up in that one car and go up to it and grab onto it and hold on to it and cause yourself suffering, physically? Or would you just watch it and let it go by, and just continue observing what's going on? In the same way, if you get caught up in a thought, it will cause that personalizing, that attaching, craving, which will then cause you to cling towards it, which will then cause you to have ideas about that thought with the sense of "I am". From there you will have a sense of being, and you might act on impulse based on that thought. Likewise, you can use the analogy of the sky, watching the blue sky, which is the clear

mind that is completely tranquil and a thought just comes by, it's just a cloud that goes by. If you pay attention to that, you miss out on the tranquility of the mind, you miss out on that process of letting go. Instead of seeing that larger sky, which is that tranquil mind, getting caught up in that cloud, you will then cause yourself further pain and suffering through that process again of craving, clinging and being. So Malunkyaputta says, "It is in such a way, venerable sir, that I understand in detail the meaning of what was stated by the Blessed One in brief." And the Buddha says, "Good, good, Malunkyaputta. It is good that you understand in detail the meaning of what was stated by me in brief." Here the Buddha repeats the above verses in full. He says, "It is in such a way, Malunkyaputta, that the meaning of what was stated by me in brief should be understood in detail." Then the venerable Malunkyaputta, having delighted and rejoiced in the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat

and after paying homage to the Blessed One, keeping him on his right, he departed. Then, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent and resolute, the venerable Malunkyaputta, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge in this very life, entered and dwelled in that unsurpassed goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness. He directly knew, destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being. And the venerable Malunkyaputta became one of the arahants. Questions, comments?

I think I'm going to start a little bit. I really like the analogy of the sky and then cloud comes by. I think most of the time thoughts are the one that is a little bit more difficult to notice, and you hang on to it. Another thing I noticed about it is how important right attention is, like I was trying to pay attention to what you said in the very beginning and noticing the content. For me, in my case, it's a lot of flickering going on. But from time to time I noticed myself, my attention goes, I wanted to know the definitions and the story behind it too, and then I put more emphasis on that, and then I'm in a totally different place. So it's really wonderful. Thank you.

Thank you. You're welcome. For that very first part of the Sutta, where the Buddha says, "Would you have any attachment towards something you have never heard of or seen before?" I always imagine it. That's the way I explain it sometimes to people: that if I were to talk about a non-existing animal, let's say some weird purple animal that doesn't exist, would you have any attachment to that animal? No, because you have never heard of it before, you don't even visualize it. But the longer I talk about that animal, maybe adding details like it's big or it has scales, then there comes a process in the mind that starts to think and that starts to feel things. Maybe you think, oh, that is very cute, and I wonder what it would be like to have one of them in the house. Or, it has scales, that's disgusting, I hate reptile-like animals. So at first it's just an object that doesn't exist.

but along the line we start to think and proliferate and feel and perceive it in the mind, and that's what the Buddha is talking about. When you hear or see something that has never been heard or seen before, you don't have any attachment to it. It's not possible to have any attachment to it. But somehow, whether it is about our child or an experience in the world, we start to proliferate and think and feel and perceive about it, and that's where the attachment comes about, so to speak. Yes, that's a very good point, and I like that example of thinking about something like a purple animal that you've never seen before. If you were to say, okay, that animal has feathers, or that animal has scales, immediately what would happen is a mind that is imagining starts to associate something it has experienced before in relation to the idea of scales. So you have to see, a person has to see that and let go and really just watch in that moment, without any projection of associations.

so it's much more difficult when it is, for example, a child or relative, a close friend that we have known for many years or for a long time, and we already have projected onto them some sense of being, that they are this person because of these attributes. And these attributes make me feel good, but then these attributes don't make me feel good, so we don't really see the person as they actually are, but an idea of a person based on our own projections, based on our own associations. Beautiful, thank you. Hey, thanks Delson for the talk, that was great, and

I really enjoyed hearing about some of the earlier links of dependent origination. I feel like most of what I hear about is from contact onwards, so it was useful to hear about the earlier ones. So I have a question about, you know, kind of carrying this wisdom into daily life. I think in the sitting practice it's certainly easier for me to maintain that right attention and to kind of know that everything is just a process to watch. But say when I'm at work, or in some kind of social engagement or something like that, there are times when I have thoughts that are definitely fueled by craving, worries, obsessive thoughts, things like that. But sometimes the content there is also something I need to act on. Sometimes the thing I'm worrying about is also something I actually have to do at work. On one level I know it's kind of about seeing the process and stepping back from it and then acting out of wisdom, but I was wondering if you had any comments on that kind of situation.

Yeah, so I mean, specifically, for example, using your example of something you have to get done at work, and there's thoughts related to it, it can cause worries and anxieties. But consider this: would the work still be done if you didn't have those thoughts and anxieties? Can it still be done without reflecting on it through anxieties and work? Yeah, I think it could be. Just in practice, sometimes they come bundled together. Yeah, yeah. So you have to notice this. You have to really pay attention. As soon as you notice, like, and that's a good reason why you notice tension, because it's one of the manifestations

of anxiety or craving or whatever it might be. If you hone in on that and realize and recognize, oh, I am tensing up because I'm starting to get worried about this thing, or I'm thinking what could go wrong, or can I get it done on time, and all of these other thoughts that might arise because of that, but if you can just hone in and recognize, oh, there's all of this right now, as soon as you recognize it, it stops at that point and you just let it go. So there is a process in which the mind gets caught up in that whole thinking, in that clinging and being, and so on, but it's important to notice that in some way or another, just to notice. Wait, you can even just physically say to yourself or verbalize, stop, just pause. When it gets like a lot of anxiety, just pause. As soon as you do that, you have recognized that there has been anxiety there related to that work, and then you use the 6R's process to let that go, come back and relax

and smile and clear the mind up through that tranquility, through tranquilizing the body and mind, in this case probably the mind more importantly. And notice how the mind starts to just, the mind, it's like the sky suddenly becoming blue again, and clear. Just notice how the mind just becomes clarified and clear, and put your attention there for some time, and then when you get back to thinking about the work, notice what is happening there. Is the worry happening again, is the worry arising again, or is the mind just now

paying attention to the work that needs to be done. So it's important, even if you get caught up in it, if there's any iota of noticing there, put your attention in that noticing process, because as soon as you notice it, then you can slow things down by even verbalizing, as I said, pause, and then come back to the present moment and come back to now, right now. Where if you start to do that and relax and tranquilize the mind, all of those worries will dissipate. So that's the process that needs to happen. It takes practice, it takes time, it takes effort, but if you can do that every time, you exercise that memory, exercise that muscle of mindfulness, to be able to see it and let it go. Gotcha, so would you say then, because I think part of it is this fear that like

you know, this craving-fueled thought, if I let it go, I'm going to not actually do the action that I need to do for work. So the idea is just to do the practice as normal and kind of trust that the intention to do the work will still arise, but without craving, later on? Exactly, exactly. In fact, I would probably venture to say that your work will be even more effective because it's not fueled by the craving. It's simply doing this, it's simply whatever the work is, it's being done. That's very helpful, thank you. There's two people, so, okay, in the sutta understood the Dhamma concept quickly

Next, the first instance, the thing is not just seen. It is having some relationship further. Next, how this relationship, in the shape of lust or greed, how he is able to understand, and immediately he is doing 6R, that's all. Instead, we ourselves will get some sort of smile in the mind itself, and we will go away from there. This is what is happening with us. So do you think that we are really having the relationship with that seeing? The recognition process is not just a projection, but it is having some relationship with us. Is it there or not? Could you please clarify? Yeah, yeah. So in terms of Malunkyaputta, what you notice here in the sutta is that there is a sense of urgency. So he has this intense

chanda for trying to get to nibbana, to become an arahant, and that really helps him to hone in on what the Buddha is saying. With his attention rooted in reality, yoniso manasikara, really paying attention to what the Buddha is saying, through that reflection he is able to say, okay, I get it. So it's mindfulness, and through correct mindfulness one lets go of the form and the lust to that form, and so on and so forth. Now, in the process of recognizing in the 6R process, first there is just this basic mindfulness of recognizing that there is some hindrance present,

and one lets go of it. But the more one does this, there are certain insights that arise, such as impermanence: seeing impermanence, understanding that this is not worth holding on to, that this is a cause for suffering. Understanding in the seeing of the impermanence, meaning in the seeing of arising and passing away, there is a seeing of not self, some understanding of anatta, some understanding that this is an impersonal process.

So it can happen where a mind like that is able to have the insight and then immediately deepen the mindfulness, to be able to not only have the mindfulness of recognizing, but along with that, the insight of seeing that as being impersonal. Along with that, seeing that impermanent process happening, arising and passing away. So in the case of Malunkyaputta, it was pretty quick, because he had probably had that cultivated intention, that chanda, to attain nibbana. But at the same time, he understood the mechanics of mindfulness in this way. He understood that, okay, the Buddha is talking about contact here.

The contact means that there is this eye, and there is the form, and the meeting of the two, and he's starting to really pay attention, starting to really... and that's why we talk about yoniso manasikara, attention rooted in reality, because it's a process of seeing it, and in the seeing, getting the insight into that impermanence of that process, into the impersonal nature of that process. So I would say, for one who is doing the 6R process, it's not just being able to observe and do the 6R, it's also being able to notice when you let go, how the mind feels. That's why, when you are on retreat or whatever you're doing, really pay attention to the effects of each step of the 6R. Pay attention to how it feels when you recognize. Pay attention to how the anxiety or the craving or the sadness or the aversion stops right there. It doesn't go forward, because you have stopped it, you have paused it with your recognition. Pay attention to how it feels when your attention

moves away from that and back to the present, using the mind and the body, or the mind, as just a way of anchoring back to the present. Pay attention to how it feels to relax, and in the process of relaxing, pay attention to how the mind is, how the mind is clear and tranquil. Pay attention to when you smile, how that uplifts the mind. Pay attention to when you do that and return to the object. What is happening there? Is the intention becoming craving again, or is the intention just inviting the brahmavihara, and then radiating it, by just watching the radiating happening? So it's a deeper look into the experience of the 6Rs.

So I would suggest for people to do that in terms of just really paying attention to each step, so that as you do that, when you actually do the process, it becomes automatic and it becomes like a wave. It just rolls on. But this whole process is being experienced in that way. my question is it a physiological change in us or just fine is coming and i'm not able to identify each and every step this is what my problem is what you have analyzed it these steps are not

in each and every aspect i am not able to follow and just smile is coming and just i'm moving from there this is the effect with me and whether if i'm doing like that am i getting attached to anything relationship is there or not this is what my question would you please so okay let's let's make sure that i understand this correctly so you're saying your question is basically is this a reason because of some physiological process or is there something happening when you're smiling where you're not able to return to your object, is that what you're saying? Or what is going on exactly? By seeing the object, a smile is coming. Is it a physical change?

And that is why we are not able to analyze all these steps. This is what... is it a defect with me? No, it's not a defect with you only. It can be because of... it can happen to anybody. What I'm saying by that is, when you smile and you return back to the object, in the returning process of the object there is a personalizing going on. So usually in the relax step there is some kind of personalizing happening, but the mind is very tranquil, and you come back to the smile. But in the returning process, this is where it's like the beginning of the meditation practice as well. The returning practice: the returning process is not about immediately having the mind go back to its object necessarily. It's more about

staying with that relaxed mind, staying with the uplifted mind, and allowing the process of the brahmavihara to happen, and you're just watching how the slight intention for that brahmavihara brings it about, and then you're watching how your attention to it brings about the mind that is collected. So there's a sense of a person doing this in that return part of the process. There's a sense of 'I am doing this.' But if you observe even the 6R process, now there is recognizing happening, now the mind has turned its attention away from the hindrance, now the relax step, there's an experience of this happening where the mind is tranquil, now the mind returns back to the smile, and now the mind is feeling uplifted

and now there is an intention. So you can slow it down a little bit, so you can see it in this manner. That's what I'm saying. So in the return process it's not immediately just personalizing and saying, okay, now I'm going to go back to the object. It's more about seeing how the mind basically gently goes back to the object through the process of watching and observing. Thank you. Is that clear? Does it make sense to you? Yes, yes. Okay. It's a minute way, we have to observe. Yes, I have a question. While I was meditating, actually, I don't want to

tell myself or get the thought saying I need to smile. I see myself, automatically the smile is automated, like it automatically comes when I'm going to the higher level. I see my body and become calm, and I see that I didn't want to say, 'I need to smile' or something, 'keep the smile.' It's so many times, it maybe automatically comes to the face. Is that the way you mean? Yes, exactly. So it's just observing how the smile comes. You can observe the intention to smile if it's there, but when you observe, what you're doing is you're starting to see the impersonal process. In observing, see the reason why there's an emphasis on observing: it is because

you're creating, so to speak, the sense of space between the process. You're creating a space between the object itself, which in this case, let's say, is the smile. You're creating a space between the smile and the intention, and between the intention and the attention, and observing it. And when you're doing that, you notice, I'm just getting a little deeper into this. So you understand the mechanics of it: when you're doing that, when you're observing, what you realize is anything that can be observed is not self. So even the sense of observing is happening because of some kind of process of intention. So you're just observing that. Now, coming back to your experience of just coming back to the smile, watching how the smile emerges, that's a good practice to have, because you're just watching that. You are not causing the smile. There's just an intention to smile, or there's just an automatic process through the 6R where the mind immediately returns to the smile and becomes uplifted. So that's fine. Thank you.

You're welcome. Hi, yeah. Um, it's a very deep lee that I've seen in this sutta, and what you have explained, from the contact part to the process of seeing the contact, when we are even returning, I mean in the sitting, returning to the object of meditation. So what I am experiencing in the listening and in the later sittings, that you are telling us more of the observing of the change from the observation part. So there is a space, that possibly I have a possible experience, like a space in between.

And that is the space that we would like to understand. I'm trying to explain where to see. I'm getting it right, so you can correct me, please. That space is where we can also explain or interpret it, or we don't actually need to interpret, but that is the infinite space that might be there, or it will eventually lead us to that nothingness, that nothing, and that is what we want ourselves to not identify into. Is that where we lose that perception, or are we not in that perception or non-perception? Is that where we are in that? And this is even further, the contact, and that perception of that object of meditation in between is even that. It's not a personal, like watching, but it is naturally going into that space of that nothingness, or it will just take us there? Or is it correct that I'm experiencing this? Please.

Yes, yes. The key word here, which you used, is natural: it's happening naturally just because of the correct causes and conditions. So even in these, that space that you're observing, there's nothing there you need to further do except continue to just watch how it changes, from this, from the space to consciousness to nothingness and neither perception and non-perception. You see, the only reason why we're taking any of the brahma viharas, primarily in the beginning, is because it feels good and it's very easy to bring up, then the factors of joy and comfort and so on. But then, as you're starting to use the other brahma viharas like compassion or joy or equanimity, it's just an anchor point for you to be able to continue to observe. It's a way for you to stay with the present, stay with right now, and see what's happening. And you're watching the evolution of the mind as it goes from space, consciousness and so on, and what you're seeing is you're not causing it. It's just happening because of certain conditions.

and those conditions can be just because the mind is further letting go letting go of its interesting space for example and now going deeper into consciousness then letting go of its interest in consciousness and then going into nothingness letting go in its perception and interest in nothingness and going into neither perception and unperception so in this observing it will naturally happen so long as you continue the process of keeping your attention on the brahma vihara it's it's it's an anchor point for you to remain present to be able to keep observing what's going on and then you start to notice how certain um minute inputs of intention for example in either perception or non-perception you notice how if you put in a little bit of tranquility the mind becomes more relaxed if you put in more effort if you put in more enthusiasm the mind becomes more active it becomes more collected or it becomes more unified and so on

So even in that process of intention, it's important not for the mind to get caught up in personalizing that intention, but seeing that intention as an impersonal tool. That if there's a drop of intention here, this is the effect of that. If there's a drop of intention there, this is the effect of that. That's all you're observing, basically. So in that observing, you're not personalizing any of the tools that are there, which can be used as factors for the. I have a second question, that is, how can we make use of this to

effectively in our daily experiences, what Austin has just brought up, in our real life, so we can apply it into a scenario or a conversation that just happened. The content may not be a daily life thing, so our observation of how we just make contact with this particular conversation, of work or of communication, that it is just that, that it's not the context that we should be more concentrating on? Or should we just not? That I was having this experience: whether I should be putting the intention onto the contact, the context of that particular conversation, or I should just put it into the intention of, okay, this is the final objective of how it was supposed to be delivered, and it doesn't matter what is in there. So it's not a personalized... so whether I'm personalizing on the context, which might not be a factual context, or whether I'm actually reading it as a

a message, I'm still having me in there, right? So it is how we are trying to be able to, even though we back off and see, okay, whether it's a good intention, the message, or an objective they're trying to arrive at, or what even in the context is not actually doing that job. And my approach to it is, watch it. That's the contact part. I received this, I have to address it, or I should address it, but the way that I address it is, even though not attaching to the context, I'm attaching my feelings towards the intention of that message. So it's still there, that I'm in there, right? So how do we delineate that part?

Do you get my question? Yes, I understand. You get my scenario. Sorry, I have made it complicated, but I don't know if I have... no, I understand. So, one practical approach, yeah, one practical approach would be this, and this is a question everyone probably asks themselves: when they first open their eyes in the morning, do they start getting caught up in what needs to be done for the day? They start getting caught up in, okay, I have woken up, now I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to do this? Or does one wake up

and notice that there is now an awareness of this body, an awareness of being awake, and awareness and knowing that here we are, this is what's happening, so to speak? And then just watching as you continue on with the day, to brush your teeth, comb your hair, all those things that are happening. Where is the mind in that process? So what I'm saying is, as a practical approach, start your day off with that mindfulness. Obviously at some point, whether it's the beginning of the day, if it's possible for your schedule, meditate in the morning. But that first initial step of getting into that mindfulness

of the day, starting from there, it starts to get the ball rolling. And then, of course, if you're doing your meditation in the morning, you do that, then from the meditation itself you deepen your mindfulness by bringing in that mindfulness, bringing out that mindfulness from the meditation. Now, when it comes to things like, you know, okay, you're listening to somebody, you're in a conversation, you're in a meeting, or you're writing an email, or whatever it might be, anytime you notice that there is a personal judgment about that person or about the situation

or about the thing that you're writing, if there's a personal judgment, notice that. Meaning you have to notice that these personal judgments are coming from some kind of sense of self that associates the task with that memory, that projects a memory onto that task. If you start to notice it in that way, that okay, I notice I'm writing an email and I'm starting to think about something else while I'm writing the email, maybe the person I'm writing the email to, I start to have thoughts about that person, about what they did, and so on and so forth. So if you start to notice that the mind starts to make these judgments, that's a good way of noticing that the mind is getting caught up in preferences

getting caught up in personalizing, getting caught up then in craving and clinging, and so on, because there's a difference between thinking about the work itself, or thinking about what the person is saying in reference to the meeting, in reference to a project, in reference to whatever the task is, and in personalizing it by attaching some kind of judgment to it, attaching some kind of sense of self to it through a memory or through reflecting with a sense of self. So if you start to notice that you're doing this, you can get, and that you're getting caught up in this, again take a pause, recognize it, and let go of it. With thoughts that are related to the task at hand, with thoughts that are related to you writing an email, just that thought of listening to the person in the meeting, that's just happening. That's a process of the listening, that's a process of the cognizing. But as soon as you bring in this judgment, of I feel this way about this person, or I don't like how this person is saying this, or I kind of feel tired about wanting to do

this task right now because I have some aversion towards it. When you start to notice it in those ways, there's some kind of emotionality behind that, some kind of emotional sense behind that. When you notice that, that causes the clinging to go further and the being to go further. So if you have a certain emotion about it, notice how that emotion is arising. Is it arising because you like it, or because you don't like it, or is it arising because something happened in relation to it, and so on? That's where you have to see, and then let go of. It's not about letting go of all thoughts, because you might require a thought in terms of interpreting data, or interpreting what's going on in relation to the email or the meeting or the task at hand.

Yes, yes, that part I understand. Yes. Um, okay, yeah, we still need to, like, functioning with the cognition and the conscious of what is there, but it is not that great, like that personalized that I was supposed to be like put in there with the craving, and then, yeah, onward with the clinging. Um, yes, but thank you very much. Yeah, the leading back to how we see our, like, the formation part is also very, yeah, very helpful. Thank you. Yes, welcome. All right, everyone, please join me.

May suffering ones be suffering free, and the fearful just fearless be. May the grieving shed all grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired, for the attainment of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power, share this merit. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. Thank you, Delson. Thank you so much. Thank you, everyone.