June 19, 2021– DN 33 – The Chanting Together – Sets of Eight

Hand over the word to you, please. Thank you, kun. Hello everyone, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. I hope you all are doing well. So we're going to continue with the Sets of Eight in the Sangiti Sutta, which is the Digha Nikaya number 33, and this is, I believe, a translation by Maurice Walsh. So let me get started. There are sets of eight things perfectly proclaimed by the Blessed One. Eight wrong factors: wrong view, wrong intention, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness and wrong collectedness. So instead of using the word wrong, maybe we can use the word ineffective, meaning these are the path factors that are ineffective to have someone enter into nibbana, and so they are not the effective ways in which one can enter nibbana. So what are these wrong or ineffective factors? With regards to wrong view, it's essentially any view that is other than the mundane right view and the super mundane right view, just to say

someone doesn't believe in karma, someone doesn't believe in the understanding of causation, doesn't have respect or gratitude for one's parents, doesn't believe in generosity and the benefits of generosity, doesn't believe in the idea that there is a path that can lead to nibbana and that there are those who know that path, teach that path and so on. And of course someone who follows that wrong view also doesn't have an understanding of the four noble truths, so that means they are essentially functioning from ignorance. Wrong intention here is an intention that is rooted in sensuality, rooted in attachment to sensual experiences and identifying with sensual experiences. The second and third factors of that wrong intention would be somebody

where somebody has ill will and aversion, and that manifests in thoughts of annoyance and hatred and so on, and even to the point of cruelty or violence, thoughts of harm. That is wrong intention. Wrong speech here would be the opposite of right speech, to say where somebody would indulge in false speech, in harsh speech, in abusive speech, in idle chatter, gossip, so on, that is rooted in that wrong intention, to be attached to sensual experiences and to identify with those experiences. It would be rooted in ill will and rooted in intention to harm. Wrong action here is the opposite of right action

so that is somebody who does kill, somebody who does harm with intention. It's where somebody takes what is not given, essentially steals, and that could be anything from possessions to the credit or content or whatever it might be. And sexual and sensual misconduct, which is that somebody acts through that wrong intention of attachment to sensuality to commit misconduct because of that identification with sensual experiences. And of course implied within that part of the five precepts is somebody who also breaks the fifth precept of indulging in intoxicants that lead one to heedlessness, that lead one to being unmindful, that lead one to be fearless, and therefore keep that mind rooted in craving and ignorance and conceit

Wrong livelihood here is essentially the opposite of right livelihood, which is where someone would do business or have a livelihood in trading in intoxicants, trading in meat, trading in poisons, trading in weapons, and trading in human trafficking. Wrong effort here is not being able to use right effort. That is to say, continuing to use one's attention in an unmindful manner, using wrong attention or ineffective attention, attention that is not rooted in reality, to be able to not recognize, or they won't be able to recognize, when something is in the way of a whole unwholesome state arises

because of that they're not able to abandon those unwholesome states, and of course they're not able to generate any wholesome states and maintain them. That gives rise to wrong or ineffective mindfulness. So ineffective mindfulness is essentially a mind that becomes so busy and so distracted by so many different things, and while that mind tries to be in the present moment and watch how the mind's attention moves, because that mindfulness is rooted in the wrong effort, it's not able to progress any further. So it's not even able to recognize any unwholesome states. And of course if it's rooted in wrong intention, as it starts to collect its mindfulness

it's doing it for the wrong reasons. Wrong collectedness here is twofold. Number one, somebody is too absorbed in their object of meditation. The mind identifies and latches on to the object of meditation, and thus the mind becomes so absorbed that it suppresses everything that mind is experiencing, suppresses the hindrances and it suppresses the insights. And so when that happens, one is not able to effectively gain insight, and essentially when they come out of that collectedness, they see that after a few hours the hindrances arise again with full force, so they're not able to do anything with it

And then the second part of that is also collectedness that arises from when somebody becomes so absorbed in an activity. There are other spiritual traditions where people get into these ecstatic states of consciousness, into these meditative states, because of art or music or dancing or painting or whatever it might be. All of those activities are wonderful things, but they don't lead to the right kind of collectedness, because the effective kind of collectedness leads to nibbana. And so it's rooted in the intention of being attached to sensual experiences again. So somebody identifies with what they're doing and they get into this state of flow, as it's been known in modern usage, but that state of flow is

essentially one-pointed concentration. It's one-pointed absorption, and because of that the person might feel very ecstatic in those times when they are in that so-called flow, but after a few hours their mind and body feels strained and they don't really have any insight that arises. So you can look at wrong mindfulness as an effect of wrong effort, and you can see that collectedness would be wrong in terms of the fruit that it bears. It's not able to bear any kind of insight, any kind of understanding into how mind works, and then on deeper levels of how the dependent links of dependent origination arise and so on. If it doesn't do any of that, then it would be considered to be wrong collectedness

Eight persons worthy of offerings: the stream winner, and one who has practiced to gain the fruit of stream entry; the once-returner, and the one who has practiced to gain the fruit of the once-returner; the non-returner, and the one who has practiced to gain the fruit of the non-returner; the arahant, and one who has gained to get worked to gain the fruit of arahatship. So this is the path and the fruition. This is what they call eight persons worthy of offering. Last week we talked about the seven persons in relation to those who attain arahatship through two different modes of practice, and then so on, so people who have attained jhanas and cessation, who have attained some level of stream entry, whether it's path or fruit, and so on. So this is essentially just talking about path and fruition: one who has entered that path, or is on the way toward the fruition of that path. And of course one who is on the path is always inclining, as long as they make the effort

towards the fruition. They are on the path. This is something that's important to understand also: one should continue to practice even if they have attained a path, continue to practice towards the fruition, and then from that fruition enter that path, or incline their mind towards attaining the path of the next attainment, and so on and so forth. Yes, the understanding is that let's say a stream-enterer, somebody who has entered the stream, enters the path of stream entry, and they don't move forward at the time of their passing on, they will attain the fruition of stream entry. Likewise for the other paths: if one has attained sakadagami, anagami, arahatship, they will have the attainment of the fruition

if they don't, before at the point of the dissolution of the aggregates. So these are the eight persons worthy of offerings. Eight occasions of indolence: here a monk has a job to do. He thinks, I've got this job to do, but it will make me tired. I'll have a rest. So he lies down and does not stir up enough energy to complete the uncompleted, to accomplish the unaccomplished, to realize the unrealized. Or he has done some work and thinks, I've done this work, now I'm tired, I'll have a rest, so he lies down. Or he has to go on a journey and thinks, I have to go on this journey, it will make me tired. Or he has been on a journey. Or he goes on the alms round in a village or town and does not get his fill of food, whether coarse or fine, and he thinks, I've gone for alms and my body is tired and useless.

Or he goes on the alms round and gets his fill. He thinks, I've gone for alms and my body is heavy and useless, as if I were pregnant. Or he has developed some slight indisposition and he thinks, I'd better have a rest. Or he is recuperating, having not long recovered from an illness, and he thinks, my body is weak and useless, I'll have a rest. So he lies down and does not stir up enough energy to complete the uncompleted, to accomplish the unaccomplished, to realize the unrealized. So essentially this is talking about the various kinds of excuses somebody could make for not practicing. As long as you have not attained arahatship, you have to keep practicing in one way or another, whether it's a sitting practice, walking practice, sitting and walking practice, or daily mindfulness. Always work towards sharpening your mindfulness. Always work with tireless energy, which is to say keep using the 6R's process as best as you can and as much as you can, whenever hindrances and craving and clinging and being seed arise

whenever you notice that the mind starts to identify with the process, the 6R's. Whenever you start to notice that the mind has some kind of craving or aversion, the 6R's. So there are different kinds of excuses everybody might have, which is, you know, I ate too much, let me take a nap and then I'll practice later. I didn't get enough to eat and now my body is tired, I won't be able to meditate, I'll do it later. So procrastination is another aspect of that. I've gone on this long trip and I feel jet-lagged and I need to get some rest, and then in that process they forget to meditate after that. By all means, if the body really requires rest, one should rest. If one's body is not feeling well and there's illness and they are recovering from that illness, obviously you want to have some kind of common sense, or some kind of sensibility, to be able to gauge whether the body is fit enough to sit down for meditation or do any kind of practice

You need to use that kind of discernment to assess for oneself how the body feels. In that process, if it really feels like the body is capable, then try to sit for some time. Try to sit for at least half an hour. And if not that, then you can still be mindful while you're resting. It doesn't mean that you have to lie down on the bed, but even if you're lying down on the bed, see if you can be mindful of that. So in essence, always work towards cultivating the path, always work towards practicing the path, always work towards abandoning any kind of hindrance, any kind of unwholesome state that might arise, always work towards assessing with wisdom and discernment. For me, eight occasions for making an effort: here a monk has a job to do. He thinks, I've got this job to do, but in doing it I won't find it easy to pay attention to the teaching of the buddhas. So I will stir up sufficient energy to complete the incomplete, to accomplish the unaccomplished, to realize the unrealized.

Or he has done some work and thinks, well, I did the job, but because of it I wasn't able to pay sufficient attention to the teachings of the buddhas. So I will stir up sufficient energy. Or he has to go on a journey, or he has been on a journey, and he thinks, I've been on this journey, but because of it I wasn't able to pay sufficient attention to the teaching of the buddhas. So I will stir up sufficient energy. Or he goes for alms without getting his fill, and he thinks, so my body is light and fit, I'll stir up energy, I will stir up sufficient energy. Or he goes for alms and gets his fill, and he thinks, my body is strong and fit, so I'll stir up sufficient energy. Or he has some slight indisposition, and he thinks, this indisposition might get worse, therefore I'll stir up energy. Or he is recuperating, and he thinks, it might be that the illness will recur.

So I'll stir up energy. So you see the difference in the mindset there. There is one who might procrastinate, one's mindset who procrastinates and makes excuses. But on the flip side of that, there is that mindset that looks at this as an opportunity. You say that my mindfulness is slipping because of these things, or I'm not able to pay sufficient time and energy. Why don't I do it now? Now is a good time to start. At any point in time when you have the ability to just watch your mind, which is essentially at any point in time during the day, that is part of the practice. That is a part of using mindfulness and understanding the mind. Every time you do that, and every time you do the 6R's process, every iota of effort gets you closer and closer towards a path of fruition and ultimately towards the attainment of arahatship. Eight bases for giving: one gives as occasion offers.

From fear, thinking he gave me something; thinking he will give me something; thinking it is good to give; thinking I am cooking something and they are not; it would not be right not to give something to those who are not cooking; thinking if I make this gift I shall acquire a good reputation; in order to adorn and prepare one's heart. So this is really all about dana, all about generosity, and there are different motivations and intentions for somebody who might give, as it's pointed out here in the eight different cases. Giving on an occasion when it seems fit. Giving from fear, because they are afraid that if they don't have generosity it will take them into a lowly state of existence. That's not an ideal way to live and that's not an ideal way to think, but at least it's a start. And in the process of practicing that generosity they evolve and start thinking about other ways or other intentions for that giving. For example, just for the sake of giving, being able to give without expectation is the highest form of giving. It's the highest form of generosity.

But of course, being loving and kind and thinking that somebody else doesn't have something and giving it to them is just as well. It's all about the intention, and if your intention is from loving kindness, from compassion, from gratitude, from wanting to share, those are all wonderful intentions. Eight kinds of rebirth due to generosity: here someone gives an ascetic or pranin food, drink, clothes, transport, garlands, perfumes and ointments, sleeping accommodation, a dwelling, or lights, and he hopes to receive a return for his gifts. He sees a rich khattiya or brahmin or householder living in full enjoyment of the pleasures of the five senses, and he thinks, if only when I die I may be reborn as one of these rich people. He sets his heart on this thought, fixes it and develops it. And his thought, being launched at such a low level and not developed to a higher level, leads to rebirth right there. But I say this of a moral person, not in a immoral person. The mental aspiration of a moral person is affected through its purity.

Or he gives such gifts, and having heard that the devas in the realm of the four great kings live long and are good looking and lead a happy life, he thinks, if only I could be reborn there. Or he similarly aspires to rebirth in the heavens of the 33 gods, the yama devas, the tusita devas, the nimanaratti devas, the paranimmita vasavatti devas, and this thought leads to rebirth right there. The mental aspiration of a moral person is effective through its purity. Or he similarly aspires to rebirth in the world of brahma, but I say this of a moral person, not an immoral one, one freed from passion, not one still swayed by passion. The mental aspiration of such a moral person is effective through liberation from passion.

So this is a very interesting aspect of the Dhamma, which is: it's your intention and your thought before you pass on that is the most important, because that leads to the immediate rebirth that takes fruition from that thought, from that process of intention. So that intention, actually, if it is conditioned by wholesome tendencies, if that intention is rooted in wholesome roots, then that intention, which are the formations, will give rise to a consciousness that is immersed in the immorality, in sila, in virtue, in gratitude, generosity, and so on and so forth. Then that will give rise to that aspiration, or that aspiration will give rise to that consciousness, and that consciousness, being undefiled by the defilements and predominant with these virtues, will then establish into a nama-rupa of a being that is best suited for that intention. So this is actually the process of becoming.

The process of bhava, where it is the consciousness that is the seed and it is the kamma that is the field, and it is craving that is the moisture, as the Buddha talks about in the Bhava Sutta. And there he talks about three levels of being, three levels of existence. So if somebody has continuously lived a virtuous life, continuously lived the life of morality, of gratitude, generosity and so on, their mind is pure, and because their mind is pure, their aspiration or their intention is strong, and it is able to manifest the immediate rebirth based on that intention. And that intention only arises automatically, dependent upon the fact that one has led a moral and upright life. That's why when one says that the thought right before one passes on is so important, it's because of all of the actions.

Mental actions, verbal actions and physical actions that continue to build the formations, continue to strengthen, whether it's the fetters or the right intentions in those formations, that then continue to progress throughout one's life, and ultimately the automatic inclination or the automatic intention that arises is dependent upon that. That's why if somebody were living an immoral life, or somebody were living a life that was not rooted in the Dhamma and was essentially breaking precepts all the time, number one, their mind would be very confused. So even if they had the possibility of having an intention to get into a rebirth that was more pleasurable, and a rebirth that was more successful, or whatever their aspiration is, it won't bear fruit immediately, because of all of this karmic field

of what has already arisen in the way of the effects of the choices one made, and those choices being the mental, verbal and physical karma, in the sense of active karma, in the sense of actions. Those produce an automatic inclination towards something that is of a mindset that is confused, of a mindset that is not wholesome. And so more often than not, the images that arise will be conducive to a rebirth according to that intention. So the consciousness that arises from there will then give rise to a new life, or will it become established into a new nama-rupa in which it's best suited for those intentions and the effects of that karma. As we understand kamma, it is quite complicated. So this is obviously something that is understood at the very basic level, and it should not be taken as completely the way it needs to be, because there's always crisscrossing of different karmic streams in terms of choices one has made and so on. But that still holds true, which is that the immediate intention for somebody who is morally upright will enable an immediate rebirth based on that intention.

Whereas it will be difficult for an immoral person, or somebody who doesn't practice or maintain the precepts and doesn't practice virtue. There are these eight assemblies: the assembly of the khattiyas, brahmins, householders, ascetics, devas of the realm of the four great kings, of the 33 gods, of Maras, and of Brahmas. So these are the groups of beings, or assemblies of beings, that are possible, what was understood at that time as society for this: the khattiyas, and the brahmins, and the householders, and so on. And then in terms of the devas in the higher sensual realms

And of the Brahmas, eight worldly conditions: gain and loss, fame and shame, blame and praise, happiness and misery. So in other way, and in other suttas, they talked about these as the eight vicissitudes of life, basically something that everybody goes through at some point or another in their lifetime. They experience some form of gain, whether it's gain in a relationship, gain in property, gain in wealth, gain in money, and so on and so forth, and they experience loss, whether that is loss of friends, loss of family members, loss of property, loss of wealth, whatever it might be. So a mind that is not contemplative, a mind that is not rooted in equanimity, will experience this and will be unable to understand that these are all impermanent processes. It won't be able to understand that these processes are also impersonal. So conceit is also rooted in the understanding.

Or the misunderstanding, rather, of these eight worldly conditions. There is the conceit: "I am the one who has gained this," or "I am the one who has lost this," or "I am the one who has become famous," or "I am the one who has experienced disrespect and shame and so on," or infamy, or notoriety, or "I am the one to blame," or "I don't deserve this blame," and things like that, or "I am worthy of that praise," or "I am happy," or "I feel miserable." So conceit, being rooted in this, gives rise to different kinds of restlessness in the mind and different kinds of craving: craving for not being in the situation, or craving for being in a different situation, or even sensual craving dependent upon these eight worldly conditions. Eight stages of mastery.

perceiving forms internally one sees external forms limited and beautiful or ugly perceiving forms internally one sees external forms unlimited and beautiful or ugly not perceiving forms internally one sees external forms limited and beautiful or ugly not perceiving forms internally one sees external forms unlimited and beautiful or ugly not perceiving forms oh i already said that yeah uh not perceiving forms internally one perceives forms that are blue yellow red and white so this is a very interesting description of stages of mastery and these stages of mastery are in related are related to

being able to shift one's perceptions, being able to see things that are not there in terms of the usual sense of what is there and what is not there, conventionally speaking, in terms of how the eye sees things right now, and in relation to how one sees things as they are without any kind of disturbance of the mind. This is my interpretation, and this has very little to do, if at all, with the jhanas and more to do with understanding how perception works and how it can be changed according to meditative states. So, this being one's own interpretation, you can take it or you can examine it or you can

look elsewhere and see what works for you. But this is how I see it. That is to say, perceiving forms internally, one sees external forms limited and beautiful or ugly. So in this case one is able to understand the different aspects of the body, for example, being able to see the body in different ways, whether it's the different parts of the body, whether it's the cellular structure of the body, whether it's the atomic structure of the body, and then also able to see or recognize or be aware of the external forms as well, so being able to see them in a limited sense. That is to say, limited to just the body and limited to the objects that one sees around oneself.

Beautiful or ugly, unlimited. In this case, would be going beyond and seeing, in relation to, like I said, the cellular structures and the atomic structures, being able to see the different parts of one's own form, so to speak, and the other forms that are there and not there, in terms of their luminosity. We'll get to that as we continue, but that's to say being able to see different images or different beings and visions within the spectrum of electromagnetic energy as the eyes are able to experience it. Not perceiving forms internally, one sees external forms. So the way I understand this is being able to just experience all throughout without having any sense of the body. So this is where the mind is able to perceive things without taking into account the forms within the body, so one can see it in the form of the four states, the four great

elements, or the four states of matter. Unlimited here would be going beyond just seeing the states of matter as one understands it through the physical eye and starting to elevate one's vision to be able to start to see the deva realms and things like that. Not perceiving forms internally, one perceives forms that are blue, yellow, red and white. Some have interpreted this to mean kasinas, and if one wants to see it that way, that can be understood. But the other way to see it is the colours on the spectrum of light: you have blue, then you have yellow, then you have red, and then you have white. So starting to see the different colours in that sense also means starting to elevate one's ability to see beyond just the normal colour that you see all around you. Just beyond

the limited structures of light, the limited structures of colour that you see through the physical eyes, being able to see beyond those spectrums, or beyond those lines within that spectrum, and seeing the devarams and seeing the brahma realms and so on and so forth. So that is just one's own interpretation of being able to manipulate different perceptions. Eight liberations. Possessing form, one sees forms. Not perceiving material forms in oneself, one sees them outside, thinking it is beautiful, one becomes intent on it, one enters the sphere of infinite space

the sphere of infinite consciousness the sphere of nothingness the sphere of neither perception and our non-perception and the cessation of perception and feeling so possessing form one sees forms so here how is one liberated from that one is liberated from identification with those forms one sees forms as they are in oneself as well as all around and one understands form just as form as impersonal and impermanent and therefore not worth holding on to that is one level of understanding which liberates the mind from any conceit in that moment not perceiving material forms in oneself one sees them outside

So this is to say that one disregards the material form, disengages from experiencing the form as it is, and just experiences the material form and sees it for what it truly is, seeing that even the body itself is impermanent and impersonal. One lets go of any identification with that and starts to experience that same process with external forms. Thinking it is beautiful, one becomes intent on it. So this is that meditative state of the third jhana, that is to say that it is beautiful. It is something that is, well, the third and fourth jhana both, but essentially it starts from the third jhana, where there is tranquility of the mind and there's contentment and there is sukha, and as that starts to gradually go into the fourth jhana, that is the beautiful, where it is very mindful, sharp mindfulness, born from or and having equanimity. So the mind is completely balanced, and it is a very clear and beautiful state to be in.

From there one enters the sphere of infinite space and enters the sphere of infinite consciousness. The infinite space can be done through radiating loving kindness or compassion and starting to experience the spaciousness all around on the mental plane. The sphere of infinite consciousness: here one is able to start to see the arising and passing away of consciousness through any of the six sense-based experiences. This fear of nothingness, or nothingness as it's written here, is the understanding that as one starts to see the impermanent nature of the arising and passing away of consciousness, and the tiresomeness, as dukkha, in seeing that, one immediately lets go of that and experiences, and sees the experience of, the impersonal nature. That is to say, there is no controller there. One is letting go of the sphere of infinite consciousness, and the arising and passing away starts to slow down, and eventually the mind gets into the space between one arising and passing away, until it completely stops and there is just this blank.

Some people experience it in different ways, but there is a sense of nothingness, meaning there's nothing now that the mind is perceiving except for the quality of nothingness, and the mind is then turning inward to itself. It stops thinking about, or stops getting distracted by, external things or thoughts related to external activities and so on. So this is a mind that starts to look inward towards itself, and in doing so eventually the mind gets tired of perceiving that quality of nothingness as well. Seeing this tiresomeness of perceiving nothingness, one drops that and then goes into that state of neither perception nor non-perception. Eventually they experience the quiet mind. They let go of all of the subtle formations, the subtle formations being that sense of "I am", that formation that arises from conceit, letting go of that and all formations. One experiences the cessation of perception and feeling. So these are the eight liberations.

Liberations in the sense that they liberate the mind from the various conditions that are unwholesome, the conditions that are rooted in the fetters, the conditions that are rooted in the anusayas and the underlying tendencies, and the conditions that are rooted in the defilements and asavas. These are the sets of eight things declared by the Blessed One. Hi, Nelson.

Thank you very much for your thoughts again and your sharing. I have one question, which I think has been asked before by other students, but I still want more clarification on the last liberation. Is it a progressing step, or is it possibly not a progressing step, from the form scenes, the forms, and then the material forms in itself?

Is it more of a progressive step, that it has to go from one to another, or is there the possibility that one can drop into one of the states of that mind occasionally or unintentionally? That's my question. Yeah, that's a good question. It's not necessarily progressive, and the reason I say that is because, yes, you can see a certain type of progression in the sense that there's a natural inclination of the mind. Once it starts to see forms in oneself and others, it starts to let go of the idea of identifying with the form, the internal form, and then starts to look at the external forms and lets that go, and then continues on. So this is really the progressive path through the jhanas as well, but it's not necessary that one needs to experience this in order to experience the next. It's not necessarily dependent upon each one. It happens on its own, and it is dependent upon one's intention, where you put your attention. So, for example, you can go into infinite space.

And start to experience that infinite space. And then, if your intention is to pay attention to nothingness and bypass infinite consciousness, that can happen there. There are meditators who bypass that completely without any intention, and they experience just the fourth jhana, and then they enter into infinite space, and then they bypass infinite consciousness and experience nothingness. I would say there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's just that the mind inclines towards that nothingness automatically, so it's not needed for one's progress or one's practice that one needs to go through all of these in the progression. Although it would be recommended that if you can do it, you might as well try and do it, but just allow the mind to incline wherever it inclines in the practice, and let it progress in that way, and naturally. Yeah. My personal experiences, sometimes it might not be in the seating. In the seating, maybe we are more drawn, and because of the understanding and the teaching, it was kind of following the already-established intention of following the steps, but

it is also maybe in a sudden state that you find yourself. Oh, this is one thing that just happened for that one moment. It is very strange, but I just think that it might be, yeah, possibly not in the seating, that you will drop in one moment. That, in that particular, the iota you mean, that. Oh, this is interesting, like, I see my blood flow. So, you know, you kind of, it's like one, just one moment. So it was something that I was questioning myself, oh, is this one of those states of things, because all of a sudden I kind of, oh, is this, but just for that one moment, and it's not there, and when you pay more attention it is gone, but it was interesting that, yeah, sometimes I find my question is here. Oh, thank you. Yeah. You're welcome. Yeah, you could experience all sorts of things like that. You can experience the blood flow. You can actually hear the blood flow, or you could listen to your heartbeat. You can see

different aspects of the body and so on and so forth so these are all just part of uh sharpening one's perceptions being able to sharpen one's ability to start to dissect things but ultimately yeah you want to get to that stage where you'll progress towards the cessation of perception and feeling because that really is the the highest liberation to experience in the sense that uh it it ceases all activity completely and then gives you the opportunity to experience the arising of the links to depend origination for you to be able to see it now remember uh at a certain point before i had also said the cessation is not dependent upon having to go through each stage uh in a progressive manner it's not like you need to get to neither perception or non-perception and then enter cessation of perception and feeling it can happen from the first jhana onwards so that's another important factor truman okay thank you

When you read about the eight liberations, it dawned on me that I don't know how seeing infinite consciousness of the mind sense shows itself. I do understand all the other senses, but I never thought about the mind sense, how that would be experienced. Yeah. It's essentially through mental objects, so that basically means thoughts. You actually start to see your thoughts in some way. You start to experience the gap between the thoughts, so any kind of thought or mental object, in the way of a thought or intention. But to simplify it, it is a thought. I mean, any kind of mental activity that arises is a thought, just for the purposes of communication. So you start to see the gaps between thoughts, so you see the arising of one thought and then that thought going away without any involvement on your part, let's say. So you start to see how these thoughts are impersonal, because there's no control. You start to see how these thoughts are impermanent. They're just coming up and going on their own, without any control.

So in seeing that, the mind gets tired of those thoughts, and eventually all thoughts die down, the point of total inactivity, which goes into nothingness. Okay. But, for instance, visual consciousnesses arise and pass away extremely fast. So would that mean that you would have very fast thoughts arise and pass away? Not necessarily. No. I would say it's more that it's slower. Actually, you're slowing down the process of thought, because thought in itself is very fast anyway, in terms of trying to catch a thought. But here are the processes where the mind is slowing down the mental process. So when it starts to slow down the mental process, you're able to see each individual thought as it arises and passes away. So it definitely seems slower, which is to say that when you're looking at the process of visual consciousness or the ear consciousness, that is also slowed-down consciousness when you're starting to see it. So it is that much faster, that process of seeing: the lights hitting the photons, the photons hitting the light, the eye, and so on and so forth. It's so quick.

The same process goes for each one, where they slow down to a point that you see that arising and passing away, until they completely slow down, where there's only the gaps between each one. So in the case of mind, yes, thoughts are very fast, but it would actually be very overwhelming to see this bombardment of thoughts arising and passing away, and it can cause a lot of restlessness. So because of that slowing down of the mind through infinite space and infinite consciousness, if the mind directs it towards mental objects, it will see those gaps. And it's more important to see the gaps between each thought, and to start to see the gaps increasing between each thought, to get towards that nothing. Thank you. Welcome. Hello Delson, can you hear me okay? First of all, thanks again for your talk. I have a comment to make, and of course wanted to know what you think about this. It's about internal and external in Pali, being ajjhatta and bahiddha, and

yeah, most of the times it's translated as internal and external, but when I looked into these terms it dawned on me that it's more likely that it means personal and impersonal, or having a personal perspective or an impersonal perspective. And when having that in mind and reading the suttas, that makes a lot more sense. What do you think about that? I would say that makes a lot of sense as well. That's a good point that you bring up. So even if you see the internal form, you see it both as personal and as impersonal. So I would say the division between internal and external is more related to the rupa, the body itself, so yeah, possessing form, so to speak, in conventional terms, and seeing the personalizing of that, and then seeing the ability to see the impersonal nature of that. Likewise for the external forms. So I could see this blending together, where you see the personal nature of something that is external as being yours, and then changing that, you're seeing that as an impersonal one. Yeah. Thank you.

Welcome. I don't know how to go back to my PDF. There was one that talks about rebirth with generosity. Can you clarify the part that mentioned about freed from passion? Does that mean, for one who makes an aspiration after making a dana, one of the conditions is that it only applies to a person who has morality, but also is freed from passion? Are they two conditions or three conditions? There it seems to have three conditions, but free from passion, does it mean an ariya or arahant?

Because it's many levels, can you clarify that? Yeah. See, the thing is, well, first of all, let's just make sure that we understand, in terms of an arahant, they won't have any intention of new rebirth. What happens is they completely let go, and there is no more rebirth for them. But in a general sense, this can be for someone who is not an ariya, also somebody who is very generous, somebody who has a strong moral upbringing, somebody who continues to practise the precepts, virtues, and so on. And the freedom from passion doesn't mean freedom from craving, because in every intention there is a craving for existence. So it's the freedom, you could say, from sensual passion. That's one understanding of the freedom from. But that doesn't mean that it has to be an anagami necessarily. It just means that the person is not inclined towards sensual pleasures in that moment, but they still have craving for some kind of existence.

There's always going to be craving whenever you have any kind of intention that is bound by a sense of I am. So any kind of passion here is a mind that is agitated, a mind that is not equanimous, a mind that is not balanced or tranquil. A mind with craving is also agitated, but not to the level of what it's talking about, in terms of where you see. Because what I'm saying is, the sila, the morality and the virtue, creates a mind that is ready for samadhi, a mind that can be ready for collectedness. It's not necessarily collected already, but it is ripe for being collected when one starts the process of samadhi practice. But that rightness of being able to be collected is dependent upon that morality. So it's just that it's free from any kind of sensual pleasures, free from any kind of seeking outward, any kind of sensual pleasures, and more towards having some kind of existence, a craving for existence.

Okay, it seems it's more related to the wish for rebirth, because in some of the Samyutta and Majjhima Nikaya they were talking about making the aspiration after dana, to even become a cloud or a big bird, you know, the sapent, those few suttas. But those suttas did not mention morality. So this one has this extra few more factors. Okay.

So in the other sutta, just to clarify, what is discussed in the other sutta? Do you know, or do you recall? Yeah, it was in the Samyutta Nikaya, in the chapter of the serpents, the nagas. Another one was the cloud. Another one was a kind of big bird. I can't remember the name. So it was more like, for one who wished to be reborn in those beings, they can, by doing dana and making a strong aspiration for it. It didn't have the moral element in that particular sentence. Right, okay, I see what you're saying. I would say that being generous is also being moral, so I'm going as far as to say that somebody who continues to maintain the five precepts, somebody who continues to be moral in other ways as well, but also has that generosity.

So generosity is just one aspect of being moral. So you could see it as being basically interspersed together, morality and generosity. To me, it's the same thing. I'd like to take this further. It kind of gives me the impression that maybe this is the principle the Christians are relying on, you know, because they are trained to make aspiration before they die to be reborn in heaven. Could it be? Yeah, I mean, I can comment and say that someone who has, let's say, a Christian background, they have been brought up to believe in heaven and hell and so on, so they have those aspects of understanding. And so for them, if you do good deeds, you will go into heaven. But there's another aspect of Christianity which goes even deeper than that, which is based on faith, a faith on certain principles related to the Christian doctrine. That's one part. But yes, there is a similarity there, where good works, good deeds, good intentions, and practicing those good intentions lead you into heaven?

So this to me, the word aspiration seems to be quite strong when it comes to the mind, because in Majjhima Nikaya 73, Buddha was instructing, I think, Vacchagotta to practise and develop his psychic power. And I wrote down here because I'm quite interested to hear your opinion. He says that you should say, may I wish the divine eye, which is purified and surpassed the human, and blah blah blah. For the divine eye, may I wish to develop the divine ear. But he always used this sentence called 'may I wish'. But I remember one time you mentioned that when you hit the fourth jhana, you direct your mind. So I'm just wondering, is it the same, or when he gave the instruction 'may I wish', is that you actually, like, 'may I be well and happy', you sort of verbalize your thought?

Is that the same? It can be, but I don't think it's necessary. In my understanding, the fact that one has the intention, and that's the thing about the intention, it can come up in the form of images, or it can come up in the form of some kind of a visual-based thing in the mind. Because there are some beings who do not necessarily have a very strong verbalizing aspect, so they might not always say in their mind, 'may I wish' or whatever, but they will have the intention, which then brings up images, and those images are good enough for one to have the aspiration towards those things. So in the visualizing of something, they talk about visualizing exercises, for example, they are one and the same, because they're both rooted in intention. Now, in the process of inclining the mind towards, let's say, the threefold knowledge or looking into past lives and things like that, there, the mind inclines

just through the changing of the intention. If it helps for someone to use the verbalization to incline the mind towards that, then by all means they can do that, and then let go of the verbalizing and continue on with that intention, if that helps, if that's something that helps them to go towards it. But it's not necessary if the mind is, let's say, clear enough at that point that they can just incline towards it automatically with that intention in mind. And that intention can just be, so far as changing the process of intention, it's like how in your meditation practice, if anyone has experienced this, is if you're going to a point where you're starting determinations

you change your intention from being in the first jhana to the second jhana, and so that intention is not saying 'may I be in the second jhana'. It's just the changing of the attention, it's just the guiding of the attention towards the second jhana, from the first jhana to the second jhana. So in the same way, when you go from the fourth jhana to the divine knowledges or whatever it might be, you're doing it through that same process. It's just a guiding of that intention. And ultimately you don't need to say 'may I, you know, experience this' or whatever it might be, unless it helps you in terms of your own mental build-up, the way your mind is made in terms of its inclinations, the way it requires any kind of supports. Okay, thank you. Is that clear? Does that make sense?

I have a question. Yes. Generally, people who live moral lives cannot escape future suffering, because they are not aware of the real nature of the world. That means, in Buddhism, the ignorance of the four noble truths. But today, a moral person is one who is not influenced by vitaraga, that is passion. And a small definition, that means he is not attached to anything. It is somewhat diluted, and he will have a chance because of his mental aspiration, and he can be effective in his path through liberation from passion. At times, is it possible, really? That is my question. Please. Yeah, as far as I have experienced it, and as far as I understand it

for such a person to be able to have the balanced mind, where they are not affected by what was the word you used, free from passion? Yeah. So for such a person to have that kind of development of mind, in my understanding and from my experience, I would say that such a person came through it by having developed some level of morality, whether it was at some point in their lifetime, or even a previous lifetime. So, there are practitioners, for example, and I can say this from my own experience with practitioners who have had no introduction to Buddhism in this one life, but just because their mind has been so sharp, and the mindfulness has become sharpened, they are able to get into the jhanas very quickly and start to experience different

part processes of the jhanas and experience attainments and so on. And I would say it is because of the continual sila, the continual morality, that they have practised in a previous life. And so you'll see in such a person that they are always inclining towards being wholesome in their mindset, being wholesome towards their actions, towards other people and towards themselves. That is the general foundation. So even if there was such a person who was able to do that, I would say that it's only because at some point in their processes

whether it was in that lifetime or a previous one, they had developed sila to that extent, but still they are not real, they are not aware of the real nature of the world, and also the four noble truths, ignorant. Still they are benefited. That's what, that today's, yes, still they're benefited. Yes, yes, yes, they're still benefited, because, you see, entry into a higher existence up until the levels of the deva realms is based on the experience of morality, being virtuous. In fact, actually, I would say this: there are also certain suttas, I think in the Majjhima Nikaya, where it even extends beyond that to the brahma realms. I think it's even mentioned here, when I read it in this sutta, that such a person who has developed their morality and their generosity

if their mind is clear enough, and their intentions are towards 'may I become a brahma' or part of the brahma realm or whatever it might be, that can also happen, and that's dependent upon that steadiness of mind that came from that moral upbringing, that moral development. But because they have not yet attained right view, because they have not established right view, because they have not understood the four noble truths or seen it for themselves, that means they haven't entered the stream, so they are still liable for rebirth. Of course, I mean, even a sotapanna, even a sakadagami, and even an anagami in the pure abodes, but in the case of the sakadagami and the sotapanna, the difference with the one who has just maintained their morality and hasn't entered the stream is that they have already destroyed the first three fetters. So because of that, they won't backslide into, let's say, a lower state of existence, whether that's the animal realm or the ghost realm or hell realms or whatever it might be, because they have established right view. So even the moral person

can, with their intention, go to a deva realm, can go to a higher state of existence in the immediate rebirth, but they still have some kamma that might be rooted in unwholesome intentions that might have been developed before, and rooted in the idea that they have not yet established right view, they have not yet entered the stream. And because of that, they can still fall down and enter a lower existence, or enter a lower human existence as well. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you, Delson, for your talk. I have a question.

um it's a i think a little bit involved but um going back to the issue of uh rebirth due to generosity um so i don't know if i'm i don't know if i am reading too much into the text but it seems like there's like three levels of rebirth so there is the person who just wants to be reborn as a as a rich person when you know when he or she comes back uh and and it said here the mental aspiration of a moral person is effective through its purity then the second category of of aspirations if you will are like you know deva realms uh 33 gods yama david all these devas right and again it says the mental aspiration of a moral person is effective through its purity and then it says or i see this as a third category rebirth in the world of brahma and there it doesn't say the mental aspiration of a person is effective through its purity it says the mental aspiration of a moral person is effective through liberation from passion

Right, so it seems like purity for people who want to be reborn human again, but happier humans, rich humans, the purity of your intentions if you want to be a deva, but to aspire to the brahma world, that would be effective through liberation from passion. So I'm just wondering, if so, keeping that in mind, I'm wondering even the aspiration that I have, how much of that is rooted in my formations? Because I would think in theory you would want the highest possible best rebirth, but for someone to want to come back just as a rich person, quote unquote, just as a rich person, I would say, well, there's so much better than that. So the fact that that's all they want or that's all they see, I would guess that's probably because of other formations and craving for kind of sensual things, right? And it's someone who wants to come back as a deva, be reborn as a deva, there's still something higher, but there's still maybe some kind of craving for sensual

some kind of pleasure, maybe not sensual, but still some kind of craving for pleasure, if you will. And so your aspiration is so effective because there's still some moral purity there, but to aspire to the brahma world, then you would really have to be no passion to even have that aspiration. So your formations will be very different. And it's not here, but if you want to not be reborn at all, very different formations that you won't have aspirations rooted in any of that. Yeah, right. So, it's not, I understand what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good point that you bring up, because now that you go back to that text, that also means the liberation from passion would be a jhanic realm, because we're talking about the brahma realms here, and in jhana you are free from passion as well. So that's another good point, which means, and I would say, that it is possible for one who has that kind of aspiration

to be freed from passion at death, at the dissolution of the body, and have the aspiration towards the brahma realms, because in the sutras it talks about beings who are just very strong in their morality, and in that process they liberate their mind from that passion or that experience of craving, like sensual craving for example, but their mind inclines towards the brahma realms. That could also mean that their mind inclines to a jhana, because the jhanas are related to the brahma realms, so liberation from passion there can also mean jhana. I see, okay. And if my aspiration comes from my formations, then in some ways they may not be entirely up to me, where I have to keep working on, making an aspiration is not the one. The aspiration I make before I die may not be entirely of my choosing, I suppose

or as free of a choice as I might think it is. Yeah, because all intention, even all choice, is conditioned by previous choices, so that's why one would say that all the intentions that you build up throughout your life are dependent on previous choices that you made in the past. And so while that last intention, let's say, or that final intention before the dissolution of the body, is very important, it can only arise because of the continuous strengthening of those intentions throughout one's lifetime, which means that an immoral person, I mean, to bring it just to kind of black and white, although it's not always the case, but to simplify it to somebody who is completely immoral, it would be difficult, because of their continual behavioral tendencies, to be immoral, at the very last point in their life, to incline towards a wholesome thought, because more often than not their mindset will have regret or remorse or some kind of painful thought as an effect of the past actions that they've produced that are unwholesome

Likewise, again, just for simplicity sake, I mean, just completely simplifying this, somebody who has a very wholesome mindset throughout their life, it would be quite difficult for them to have a thought of evil, a thought of evil intention, a thought of harm, a thought of anger, a thought of resentment, and so on and so forth. So those intentions automatically arise dependent upon that, but if somebody is aware enough to be able to know that their mind is very clear, then they can really direct their intention, and it's only that clarity of mind that is only dependent upon a mindset that is purely wholesome, and so the aspiration can be directed because of that. But a mind that has been unwholesome throughout that life, it's quite difficult, because it's bombarded by so much confusing thoughts and confusion. So I'll just give you one example of Chitta the householder who was about to pass away, for example, and as he was passing away

because he had developed, and in fact Chitta had become an anagami, so at any point, anyway, he would have gone and become a Pure Abode being. But people said, now is the time to think about becoming a wheel turning monarch, or now is a time to think about becoming this and this and so on, so, your mind is so pure, why don't you direct your intention towards this? And Chitta says, I don't care for any of those things, because I see all those things as conditioned and therefore impermanent and not myself, so I don't have any inclinations to be reborn as a wheel turning monarch and so on and so forth. So if one has developed insight to that point, then they won't have such intentions, because they know it will continue to lead to rebirth, and rebirth in itself being conditioned has the interesting intrinsic nature of suffering

Thank you, we'll wait just 20 more seconds to see if anyone has any last question. Okay, let's share some merit. May suffering ones be suffering free and the fear struck fearless be. May the grieving shadow grieve and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired for the acquisitions of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, Devas and Nagas of mighty power, share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. Thank you, Delson.