Mar 14 2021 - MN 146 - Advice from Nandaka - The Unfolding Path to Reality

That is the Majjhima Nikaya 146. I'll take you with that. Nelson, I'd like to give the word to you, please. Thank you. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, everyone. So I'm going to start reading from Majjhima Nikaya 146. This is the Nandakovada Sutta, Advice from Nandaka, and this is a translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Park. Then Maha Pajapati Gotami, together with five hundred bhikkhunis, went to the Blessed One. After paying homage to the Blessed One, she stood at one side and said to him: "Venerable sir, let the Blessed One advise the bhikkhunis. Let the Blessed One instruct the bhikkhunis. Let the Blessed One give the bhikkhunis a talk on the Dhamma." So Maha Pajapati Gotami is the Buddha's foster mother and his maternal aunt.

When his mother had passed away, she became his foster mother, took care of him and brought him up. After the king of Kapilavatthu, or at that time the chief, let's say, of Kapilavatthu, because the understanding is that Kapilavatthu's governance was such that it was a council of different leaders, and at that time the Buddha's father was the chief of those leaders, when he passed away she, along with other women of the royal family from different parts of Kapilavatthu, gathered together and went forth. There's an entire story about how she asked the Buddha three times and the Buddha refused, and according to tradition Ananda intervened. The Buddha then had additional rules and additional requisites set up for what the bhikkhunis would have to do. One of those was that after every fortnight they would receive instructions, a discourse from the Buddha or from one of the bhikkhus. Generally it was from the bhikkhus. So I'll continue now. On that occasion the elder bhikkhus were taking turns and advising the bhikkhunis, but the venerable Nandaka did not want to advise them when his turn came.

According to the note on this, it says that Nandaka was a king in one of his former lives, and the bhikkhunis were part of his royal court. They were essentially his concubines. He was being cautious because he thought that if someone who had the ability to look into the former lives of Nandaka and so on was listening while he instructed them, they would think that he had grown attached to them once again, and that he was attached to his former life as a king. So his attachment to these bhikkhunis in the former life had arisen again. So it says: then the Blessed One addressed the venerable Ananda: "Ananda, whose turn is it today to advise the bhikkhunis?" "Venerable sir, it is the venerable Nandaka's turn to advise the bhikkhunis, but he does not want to advise them even though it is his turn."

Then the Blessed One addressed the venerable Nandaka: "Advise the bhikkhunis, Nandaka. Instruct the bhikkhunis, Nandaka. Give the bhikkhunis a talk on the Dhamma." "Yes, venerable sir," the venerable Nandaka replied. Then in the morning the venerable Nandaka dressed, and taking his bowl and outer robe, went into Savatthi for alms. When he had walked for alms in Savatthi and had returned from his alms round, after his meal he went with a companion to the Rajika park. The bhikkhunis saw the venerable Nandaka coming in the distance and prepared a seat and set out water for the feet. The venerable Nandaka sat down on the seat made ready and washed his feet. The bhikkhunis paid homage to him and sat down at one side. When they were seated, the venerable Nandaka told the bhikkhunis: "Sisters, this talk will be in the form of questions. When you understand, you should say, 'We understand.' When you do not understand, you should say, 'We do not understand.' When you are doubtful or perplexed, you should ask me, 'How is this, venerable sir? What is the meaning of this?'"

it's not just a matter of reflection and analysis about the internal sixth sense bases which is in reference to the different sense receptors within the body the eyes the ears the nose the tongue the body and the mind it's in reference to understanding how they arise and pass away in every moment because they make up or are part of the form aggregate so when you understand that these sense receptors these different organs of sensory experiences and mental experiences including the mind are dependent upon this body are dependent upon this mentality and materiality to function you understand that they are not impermanent because they are subject to change dependent on the body itself the body continues to change in every moment the cellular activity the biological activities that happen in the body also affect the sixth sense bases and when you see that your eyes continue to change your ears continue to change it's evidence by the fact that your eyesight might become dimmer your hearing might not be as sharp as you get older and perhaps even your sense of smell and the sense of touch sense of taste

even touch as well, and it continues to change dependent upon how the body continues to change. So for that reason the internal six sense bases are impermanent. They are anicca. When you take a look at the word anicca, it comes from the Sanskrit anitya. Nitya in Sanskrit means eternal or permanent, but another word for nitya is also 'not to be regarded as self, not mine'. So it's, in that sense, a double meaning. Traditionally one understands anitya to be impermanent. If what is impermanent is considered to be something of a source of happiness, that would not be right; that would be ignorant, because the source of happiness that one always seeks is the kind of happiness that is long lasting and doesn't degrade over time. Any happiness dependent upon these six sense bases, which are impermanent, will degrade over time. So it would not be proper, as we've seen in the sutta so far, to regard the six sense bases as self, as mine, as me, and so on.

And so Nandaka responds: "Good, good, sisters. So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom." Proper wisdom is in reference to a few things. Number one, seeing it with a deep state of mind and seeing how the six sense bases are indeed impermanent by seeing how they arise and pass away in the body. One can do it by establishing the four foundations of mindfulness. One can do it through jhana practice and go deep into understanding that sensory consciousness is dependent upon the six sense bases, and so on. Another understanding of proper wisdom, or wisdom in general, is the enlightenment factor of investigation, and we'll get into that in a little bit. Then Nandaka talks about the external sense bases, the sense objects themselves, and he says: "Sisters, what do you think? Are forms, sounds, odors, flavors, tangibles, mind objects permanent or impermanent?" "Impermanent, venerable sir." "Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?"

And that continues to change in every single microsecond. Whatever you're hearing, in the way of one's voice, is just a series of sound waves that then hit the eardrums, and that produces the sound, and then that interprets it as language and words, and so on. But in every moment those sound waves arise and pass away. They keep coming and going, and so there's just an iota of one sound arising and then passing away. Likewise for the other objects of the senses. When you think about the mind objects, your thoughts: first of all, you can't control your thoughts. They just arise and pass away. They are impermanent. You can't control what the mind is experiencing, nor can you control what the other five physical senses are experiencing. You can't just cut them off. And so there is no self that is permanent and independent of these causes and conditions that is existing. Any self that arises is dependent upon the experience

and it arises and passes away, and so it's not worth holding on to it. It is a cause of suffering, not a cause for, or a reason to expect, everlasting happiness from these objects. So then he says: "Good, good, sisters. So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom." And he gets into the six sense-based consciousnesses, and he says: "Sisters, what do you think? Are eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, mind consciousness permanent or impermanent?"

When you see it in, for example, the sixth jhana, so to speak, the level of perception of infinite consciousness, what you are seeing is those different flickers, the arising and passing away of these various consciousnesses. You might experience it in the way of just the eye consciousness or the ear consciousness, whatever it may be, but in that you are seeing with wisdom, in that moment, as it arises and passes away, those different consciousnesses that arise and pass away. Because of that, you have a deeper understanding of nature. You have a deeper understanding of impermanence. And so it becomes tiresome after a while. We start seeing this and you realize that there's no controller here. It's just arising and passing away, dependent upon internal contact in infinite consciousness. And sometimes one can also see it while one has their eyes open, if one is in a deep state of mind and is really just watching. One can actually see the frames of reality, so to speak, in the eyes, arising and passing away. And that experience

makes you see that what you're experiencing in the way of this reality seems to be fluid. It seems to be moving in one seamless manner, but rarely is it these individual consciousnesses that are being experienced. Everything that is being experienced is through the mentality and materiality. These six sense bases are just the receptors for the signals that one receives: those signals being the photons, the sound waves, the odor and taste molecules, temperature and pressure, and so on. And then, of course, externally, it's considered external, but one has thoughts that arise and pass away. These signals are essentially the objects of the six sense bases, and the contact that arises is basically the joining of those signals: seeing the photons, or the forms, and joining with the eye and the eye consciousness, and so on and so forth. So if one was not there, there would be no content, as we'll see in a little bit.

upon its corresponding condition, and with the cessation of its corresponding condition the feeling ceases. So another way to understand this is, we talked about contact just a little bit earlier. Contact is possible when there is form, when there is eye consciousness, and there is the eye. So eye consciousness is in reference to having attention towards the form, and the eye experience in that form. That experience is the feeling, the sensation of seeing whatever one is seeing in front of oneself. But as soon as you look away, the consciousness also changes. The consciousness indeed changes even while you're looking at the same thing. For example, if it's a tree that you're looking at, you're seeing that tree, but you're seeing it in frames of consciousness arising and passing away. But to give you a simplified understanding, just to understand that: if the attention moves from that tree to, say, the grass around it, now the eye consciousness is conscious of the eye and then conscious of the form of the grass. The feeling now is seeing that grass, for the contact that arises is when the eye meets with the form of the grass.

And there's attention to the eye and the grass; that is the eye consciousness. When those three are in conjunction, that contacting gives rise to the experience of seeing the grass. Because these are dependent upon the form, seeing the form, or the feeling, is dependent upon stimulation of the photoreceptors. So if contact arises and it changes, if there was contact with the tree, the eye meeting the tree, there is the feeling of seeing the tree. But now the contact changes to seeing the grass. There's a change going on there as well. So in that whole process, because of the series of causes and conditions that are arising, when they change, so too does the feeling change, and so on. And if it ceases, so if I just close my eyes, I see nothing but the eyelids now. So I'm no longer seeing forms outside of these eyelids, and so there is no corresponding consciousness, or any forms that one allows the eye to see, what is beyond the eyelids in this physical understanding.

Now, if I were to stay silent all this time, you've been listening to me, and there is sound consciousness. There is your consciousness. You are paying attention. The attention is through which consciousness flows. You're paying attention, and now that consciousness is dependent upon the sound waves that are being experienced through the receptors in the ear, and the meeting of those three: the ear, the sound waves and the consciousness. The attention through those sound waves is content, and then, based on that, dependent upon that, is the feeling, the experience of listening to my voice. But if I were to say silent, like right now

that consciousness is no longer dependent upon that consciousness that was dependent upon that sound. That was no longer there. There was something else there. There was just silence. Because of that, the feeling also changed. So every moment it is like this, in every microsecond it is like this, even though one doesn't experience it in this way. If one were to understand it as one understands it in the realm of infinite consciousness, one lets go of any experience and understands it as being impermanent, understands it as not worth holding on to, and therefore as not being self. And so he says

condition, that corresponding condition being contact with this, which is the joining of, for example with sight, the joining of the form with the eye, and the consciousness of that experience, the eye consciousness and the form consciousness. So in seeing, in the experience of feeling which is the seeing, it is dependent that these three are met together to create that stimulation, to create that content. When that changes or ceases, so too, of course, with the cessation of its corresponding condition, its feeling changes or ceases. Good, good sisters. So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is, with proper wisdom. So far, what we are understanding from this is that any experience that you have, in terms of pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, any experience that one has, one has to see as a rising dependent upon contact. That contact is dependent upon the six sense bases, those six sense bases being dependent upon this mentality-materiality. So as you start to experience reality in this way and understand in every moment that everything that is being experienced is impermanent, not worth

holding on to, and therefore cannot be considered to be self, how then could craving arise? The craving arises when the mind takes something as personal, when the experience that is pleasant is taken as personal and one enjoys it with a sense of self and wants more of it. That craving arises. Or when one identifies with the unpleasant experience and has aversion towards it, that too brings about the link of craving. When you have the neutral experience, there is still this, let's say, craving in the form of identification, meaning even if it's not pleasant or unpleasant and it's just neutral, there is still this eye there that is experiencing it. So this is the conceit that continues to cling to different views related to the experience, that then gives rise to bhava, gives rise to a sense of being in a different kind of existence in that new moment, and then that creates the circumstances for rebirth, and then finally suffering, and so on.

So it's important to see, as one experiences in every moment, now this is where the enlightenment factors come into play, as we'll see a little bit later with regards to mindfulness and so on, where one understands reality as it actually is, without object, without projecting onto it any sense of self. So he continues, and he says: Sisters, suppose a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher's knife, without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide. He would cut, sever and carve away the inner tendons, sinews and ligaments with the sharp butcher's knife.

Then, having cut, severed and carved all this away, he would remove the outer hide and cover the cow again with that same hide. Would he be speaking rightly if he were to say, "This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before"? "No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if that skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and cut, sever and carve all that away, even though he covers the cow again with that same hide and says, 'This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before,' that cow would still be disjoined from that hide." "Sisters, I have given the simile in order to convey your meaning. This is the meaning. The inner mass of flesh is a term for the six internal bases. The outer hide is a term for the six external bases. The inner tendons, sinews and ligaments is a term for lust, delight and lust. The sharp butcher's knife is a term for noble wisdom, the noble wisdom that cuts, severs and carves away the inner defilements, fetters and bonds."

So this noble wisdom is the understanding. It is insight. It is paññā, into understanding that both this internal sixth sense basis and the external sixth sense bases are dependent upon causes and conditions to be experienced, and they are impersonal, and therefore they are impermanent, and therefore not worth holding on to, and impersonal. So this noble wisdom is also understood in the context of the enlightenment factors, which is the investigation of states, that is dhamma vicaya. Dhamma vicaya is something that is understood as reflection or understanding or discernment, but the higher level of that is really paññā. It's the insight that arises. It's the discernment that arises from seeing as it actually is these sixth sense bases and the corresponding feelings and the corresponding external sixth sense bases. So once you have that discernment, once you understand it as it actually is with proper wisdom, have that experience, it grinds away, it severs, it cuts away those defilements, the underlying tendencies that cause one to continue to project a sense of self. It starts to erode away at the fetters of conceit, craving and ignorance. It erodes away at the

the bhikkhunis have already seen with proper wisdom, which is they have understood through discernment, through investigation of states, that indeed this feeling is impermanent. It is dependent upon contact. This contact is dependent upon the sixth sense basis. Having seen this, they let go of any sense of self, and so no craving arises. When no craving arises, no clinging or bhava or being arises, and therefore no renewal of existence, no new rebirth, so to speak, that can cause one suffering.

But along with this understanding, is dependent upon the different enlightenment factors, as we'll understand. He says here, "Sisters, a bhikkhu develops the mindfulness enlightenment factor, which is supported by seclusion, dispassion and cessation, and ripens in relinquishment. He develops the investigation of states enlightenment factor, the energy enlightenment factor, the rapture enlightenment factor, the tranquility enlightenment factor, the collectedness enlightenment factor, the equanimity enlightenment factor, which is supported by seclusion, dispassion and cessation, and ripens in relinquishment." So let's go through each of the seven enlightenment factors. When we look at the enlightenment factor of sati, of mindfulness, it is essentially the understanding of how mind's attention moves from one object to the other. But there is also the application of mindfulness, so the initializing aspect of this is placing the attention on an object. So it's like the analogy of a ship, the ship being the mind, and it drops an anchor, that anchor being attention, which then drops into the bottom of the ocean, this bottom of the ocean being the object of meditation.

or the object that wants attention when the anchor is dropped this is the placing of the attention on an object this is the beginning of mindfulness and one is now mindful of the object of attention or the object of meditation as one continues to be here one discerns the state of mind this discerning is the investigation factor so investigation is not a conscious active effort all the time it doesn't have to be it's just as simple as understanding feeling and perception where feeling is the bare sensation or bare experience perception is the understanding of that experience being pleasant unpleasant or neither pleasant or unpleasant in the same way mindfulness is the understanding that attention is on this object but the discernment the knowing and perception of what state of mind the mind is at when that object is being attended to where the attention is on that object is investigation so mindfulness begets investigation investigation is dependent upon mindfulness now as one discerns the state of mind one might see that the mind is not unwholesome state or it gets distracted

And so it arouses energy, and this energy is aroused in the form of right effort, which is the six R's process. When mind discerns, so it continues to discern. What one needs to understand here is mindfulness and investigation are always happening insofar as perceiving, whenever mind is in different states of unwholesome and wholesome. So when the mind recognizes that the object is no longer being attended to, that the mind's attention has strayed away, drifted away from the object, this recognition, that's the first R of recognize, is fulfilling the prevention of more wholesome states from arising. And then one discerns that there is a wholesome or unwholesome state, and so it then lets go of that and comes back to the mind and body. This discerning then allows one to relax that mind and body. And so you have released your attention away from the distraction, come back to your mind and body and relax it, relax the tension that has arisen because of that hindrance. That relaxation

is the tranquility. And then when you smile, it is the joy enlightenment factor. Now, here you'll often see that first there is rapture, there is joy, and then there's tranquility. There's an interdependence upon the joy and the tranquility, which is to say that when you relax the mind and the body there is this clarity of mind that one experiences, and that clarity of mind naturally begets joy. It naturally produces a joyful sense of alertness, and that mind is clear and joyful. In the same way, if one is already joyful, that mind is also relaxed. So there is that interdependence with that joyful and tranquil mind. The mind then returns its attention back to the object, which is the return step, and so there the mind continues to be collected.

Which is to say that the mind's attention is around its object of meditation. This then produces equanimity, equanimity being dependent upon the preceding enlightenment factors. This equanimity is basically a mind which is undisturbed by anything that arises or passes away. Its attention is so collected that even if it becomes distracted again, it doesn't personalize it. The mind doesn't personalize it and say, why did the mind become distracted, and then produce more unwholesome states? It doesn't fight with the distraction, pull or push or anything. It just says, okay, this is the reality of the situation, and it again does the four right efforts or the six R's to come back. So there's equanimity present whenever you do this, and it is continually growing as one continues to activate these different enlightenment factors through the six R's process. Once you have this equanimity and you're able to see clearly, as you see for example in neither perception and non-perception when you take quiet mind as your object,

you are seeing the formations as they arise and pass away, and you have equanimity towards them. You're not paying attention to them, you're not ignoring them. You understand that they're arising and passing away, but your attention is such that it doesn't get drifted to it. If it does, then you continue during the six R's to bring mind back into balance, depending upon which enlightenment factors are necessary. For example, when you have sloth and torpor, you have more investigation, which, if you have more discernment, you discern that the mind is in sloth and torpor. Then you energize by coming back, and then you have joy and interest, and then that energizes the mind back into balance. When you have restlessness, you see that the mind is restless. So you are still using some kind of discernment there, but instead of the joy and the energy you are essentially just bringing more tranquility, and it brings it back to collectedness.

So you're using equanimity not to be disturbed by the fact that the mind does get disturbed, and you're just allowing the mind to be as it is. Keep bringing it back, keep bringing it back, until it's steady and it continues to have its attention sustained around its object. As you continue to do this, your mind gets even deeper and deeper and deeper, and then you experience that clarity. You start to experience that clear, quiet mind for quite some time. After a while you then have this disenchantment and this passion that arises quite naturally. You continue to let go of formations quite automatically.

And you don't have any expectations. You don't have even any expectations of nirvana. This then gives rise to seeing reality as it is. So this is really what they call the yatha bhuta nana dassana, which is to say that you are seeing reality as it is. And seeing reality as it is, is when you have that post-sensation experience, where you're starting to see the links arise and pass away, and there's no involvement there. You're just seeing how these concepts are arising through the links of dependent origination, through formations, through consciousness, through the sixth sense basis and the experience of contact and feeling. And if the mind still has equanimity and does not latch onto it, does not personalize the relief, it lets go of the craving for relief. It lets go of the attachment. As an I that experiences that relief, it destroys by not paying attention to that and understands it as being impersonal. It destroys conceit. It destroys craving, and it destroys

ignorance, and that's how the taints are also destroyed. Meaning the taint of sensory craving: there's no craving for that belief. The taint of identification of being: there's no conceit there. The taint of ignorance: one sees this entire thing that is arising, this entire process that's arising, as being impermanent, as being not worth holding on to, and as being impersonal. And so one fulfills the understanding of the four noble truths, that is to say, one has understood the first noble truth of suffering, let go of the causes and conditions for that suffering, namely craving, and then experiences that cessation, that relief from suffering, and has utilized and developed and cultivated the eightfold path to come to that understanding of the four noble truths. So he says these enlightenment factors, which are supported by seclusion, supported by having a mind not experiencing all of these sensory experiences but secluded from that, this passion, letting go of all formations, not having a care about Nibbana and cessation, the cessation of all conditioned reality and experience, and ripens in relinquishment. This relinquishment

is not getting bogged down by links as they arise. When they do arise, when you see them clearly and review and see how they arise, if there's no involvement and you let go of any sense of self, that is relinquishing anything related to those links. These are the seven enlightenment factors, through the development and cultivation of which. The development and cultivation of which refers to right effort, but it also refers to the eightfold path, of which a bhikkhu, by realizing for himself with direct knowledge here and now, enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless, with the destruction of attains when the Venerable Nandaka had advised the bhikkhunis thus, he dismissed them, saying, go, sisters, it is time. Then the bhikkhunis, having delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Nandaka's words, rose from their seats and, after paying homage to the Venerable Nandaka, departed, keeping him on their right. They went to the Blessed One and, after paying homage to him, stood at one side. The Blessed One told them, go, sisters, it is time. Then the bhikkhunis paid homage to the Blessed One and departed

By doing so, one then is able to look at what has been said in a different light. Sometimes you can hear one discourse at one time and experience it in one way, and listen to that same discourse, and then suddenly something else opens up in the mind to provide more wisdom and clarity. It's the same with the suttas.

You read a sutta and then you go back into your practice, and you have a certain experience. You go back to that same sutta, and it's like it's unlocked a different perspective of understanding of that sutta. So he says, yes, venerable sir. The Venerable Nandaka replied. Then the next morning the Venerable Nandaka dressed, and he does the same thing over, and then the bhikkhunis paid homage to the Blessed One and departed, keeping him on their right. Soon after they had left, the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus. Just as on the uposatha day of the fifteenth, people are not doubtful or perplexed as to whether the moon is complete or full, since then the moon is clearly full, so too those bhikkhunis are satisfied with Nandaka's teaching of the Dhamma, and their intention has been fulfilled. The least advanced of those 500 bhikkhunis is a stream-enterer, no longer subject to tradition bound for deliverance, headed for enlightenment. That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words.

Questions, comments. If I may, I have one question and one comment. The question is, it's now my understanding that first Nibbana happens, and depending on how you experience it after contact with the Nibbana element, this will decide the level of attainment you will have. So it's not that the Nibbana experience itself will already decide which attainment you achieve. So to speak, yes. That's exactly it. So what that means is, basically, when one enters the stream one has contact with the Nibbana element, so already the three fetters are destroyed because there's no longer any doubt in the practice. One understands that this is the path to experiencing that Nibbana, and one lets go of any experience of, or any understanding that, there is a self tied to any of the five aggregates. It's later on, when you get into sakadagami or the understanding of the anagami, where the contact with the Nibbana element then gives rise to that feeling of relief, and sometimes that feeling of relief will be less than what was experienced, let's say, when one first entered the stream.

Now, how one takes that relief, that experience, then gives rise to either more attachment, and so there is still the fetter of craving present, or if one lets go of that, there is no longer that fetter of craving, but there's still conceit where I have experienced that relief. So if one lets go of that as well, one lets go of the fetter of conceit. Thank you. As to the comments, I thought it might be interesting that if you look at the book from Bhikkhu Analayo, The Foundation History of the Nuns' Order, he compares this sutta with parallels from other traditions, for instance the Samyukta Agama, if I pronounce it correctly, and he found eight differences, and this was the least respectful towards the bhikkhunis. And also in the Samyukta Agama they all became arahants. So I thought that was interesting, because it's my idea that in the Majjhima Nikaya sometimes there are these quite hostile tendencies towards the bhikkhunis, a kind of disdain, which I find very hard to believe, because the persons addressing the bhikkhunis were probably all arahants and would not have such emotions towards women

Yeah, that's a very good point, and that's a point I agree upon. Actually, there's the sutta with Anathapindika, 143, if I'm not mistaken, where in the Agama version of that sutta it's a different outcome for Anathapindika, and there are different variations of how one perceives what happens to the bhikkhus or the bhikkhunis or the lay people. So it's an interesting variation to know. Yeah, thank you. Yes, so when we are talking about how the post-Nibbana relief is being taken personally or not determines the level of attainment, beyond, say, the stream-enterer becoming a sakadagami or an anagami, my question there is, so obviously the Nibbana experience has happened

through a series of causes and conditions that are tied to the noble eightfold path, and how is the maturity of the person that has gone up to that point, where he enters, as he or she enters again, and then this moment that he or she takes it personally is being now made as a ruler on the level of attainment? So that seems a bit non-linear to me. So obviously there has been a lot of effort put into the meditation practice by that person, say from the stream-entry point to the next cessation experience. So my question there is

what is the level of maturity that that person would have experienced between these two states and how that determines the attainment? Yeah, so you talked about the different factors of the eightfold path and so on, and there's also other aspects related to the enlightenment factors. So it's also about deepening your wisdom in daily practices as well, meaning not just with regards to meditation but also with regards to your daily life. So it's a matter of continually seeing the arising and passing away of feeling and sensations and moods and mindsets

and not having any attachment of self to that. So let's say, for example, for an anagami, they have let go completely of craving, so they're no longer craving for that relief. They're no longer craving for it, but there is still conceit, which is, I have gotten to this state, or I have still yet to complete my path, and so on and so forth. So this 'I am' is really the determined as well as a determining factor. In other words, when you look at the five higher fetters, you have restlessness, you have craving for existence and craving for non-existence, you have conceit, and you have ignorance. This conceit is dependent, or rather the other fetters are dependent, upon this conceit. When there's conceit there will be restlessness in the mind, because there is still this identification of 'this is, you know, I am,' this experience of 'I am.' The craving for existence and non-existence is dependent upon that 'I am,' and of course the ignorance, which is to say that there's still the self, there's still not complete understanding

of the deeper levels of not self. That only arises when you start to basically change the formations. What I mean to say by that is, in every given moment you have a choice to either keep relating to the world from a sense of 'I am,' so that this world is here and I am here, and this is the world, and so you keep referring it to this sort of delineation between a self and the world, even though you know that there is no self, dependent upon the different aggregates and so on. So it's a very subtle and minute sense, that conceit that arises, and so that's why I refer to the Kemaka Sutta, where you have the Elder Kemaka who basically says that I understand that the five aggregates are impersonal, I understand them to be impermanent, but I still have this relation to a sense of I am there. And this is eroded every time you make a choice to not personalize anything, every time you make a choice to understand it as it actually is. This continues to weaken the formations.

that are fettered by that conceit. So you keep eroding away with the choices that you make by really consciously, mindfully understanding it as being not self. And then eventually in the meditation practice, this will flower into where you have that event of cessation, that you contact within the body, and then you just let go of everything. You don't have any sense of self to that.

That gives me a lot of relief, because if it's just hinging on just one moment of me being attached to that, really, and that determining the attainment level, I mean, that seemed a bit stringent on someone. So if it's like, we are really practicing every moment, or trying to practice every moment, and that goes into a flowering outcome.

And even to go beyond that, if we take the relief personally, then that limits our attainment. Would that be a better description of what would happen? Yes, exactly, exactly. This is the practice: it is dependent upon the following of the precepts. This is why you have less and less hindrances in the beginning. When you continue to follow the precepts, you start to let go of the hindrances, and the hindrances that arose dependent upon you not following the precepts, or anybody not following the precepts, goes away, because you continue to make choices where you continue to follow those precepts. So on that level, you see that there is an interdependence on how you behave in this world, in accordance with right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort.

And then that gives rise to right mindfulness, which gives rise to right concentration, and finally gives rise to right knowledge. Thank you. I have a question continuation to that one. So it means that you are saying once there is a contact with the nibbana element, the result can be the fruit of anything. It can be sotapanna. What exact factor determines which fruit he will take? Like, maybe he needs to do some practice before, so I can directly attain, maybe, yeah, arahatship? Maybe here I can directly, it in just joking, but yeah, like it was everything, if you want to make it one go, it's one.

So it's like there is no choice, like once one comes out of that nibbana element, whether he takes it personally or not, I think there is no choice there, but what factor is forcing him to choose, to go with one of the fruits? First I will say that there is a choice there. Actually, in the beginning I feel like there's no choice, because you're overwhelmed by that relief when you enter the stream. There is this complete overtaking of joy that you experience from that relief, and then when you have that relief you're just like, oh wow, you know, and then for a few days you have a lot of joy and energy and so on, and you kind of feel, you know, like everything is brighter and so on and so forth. But as you start to come back into the practice, how did those three fetters get destroyed? They got destroyed because you actually walked the path. You followed through in terms of the meditation practice. You utilize right method, you utilize right intention.

You followed your precepts, which means you utilize right speech, right action and right livelihood. By doing so, then you were more mindful, you had a clarity of mind there. Your mind became more collected, your attention was more sustainable towards its object of meditation, it was more unified. That then gave rise to the understanding of the enlightenment factors. As you get deeper and deeper, deeper, and then you start to balance that, at a certain point you have the cessation experience, then you have contact with the nibbana element. And when I say you have contact, it's just this contact. It's the three types of contact with the nibbana element, which is the signless contact, the undirected contact and empty contact. Which means the signless contact, which is the understanding that all things are impermanent. You already had that understanding at infinite consciousness.

That all conditioned things are suffering. You already had that experience at infinite consciousness, and you let go of self. You keep letting go of the sense of self. At a certain point after that, when you have the contact with the nibbana element, now you have let go of the three fetters. Why? Because you have followed the path. So you know no rites or rituals are going to take you to nibbana. This is the way to nibbana: the eightfold path, the four noble truths is the way to experience nibbana. You no longer have doubts in your practice because you've seen it through. You have experimented and experienced it for yourself firsthand, and you have already experienced not self in infinite consciousness. So you let go of any views related to self and in relation to the five aggregates.

Now, the next time one has, let's say when you go into sakadagami, the next time one has that experience of relief. For most people, for most beings, when they have an experience, that relief is not as strong as it was before that's experienced. So you continue to let go of the craving for that. You realize that even this relief is impermanent. You might not see it in the beginning, but you start to see it in your daily living. So the fruits of that are experienced in how you interact with the world, how you perceive the world. So it's one thing to understand that you are sakadagami, but it's one another thing to completely understand it through how you interact with the world, how you respond to situations. So craving might arise, but then you recognize it. Your mindfulness has become sharper for you to be able to recognize it and let go. Now, because you continue to let go whenever craving arises and aversion arises, you are influencing the formations

that give rise to letting go of craving, that give rise to letting go of aversion, and you're weakening the fetters or the formations that are fettered by that craving, that gives rise to attaching, attachment, and to aversion. So when you continue to do this, in the next process, then you get into anagami, where you see that relief and you realize even that relief is impermanent. And so you're not going to consider that to be, you know, you're not going to crave after it. You're not going to attach anything to it. You're not going to have any attachment to the expectation of the joy and the relief that you experience, and so on. Because of that, you have destroyed the fetter of craving.

Now there's still the five higher fetters, which is conceit, which is a big one. That's the one that everybody needs to really look at, and it is very subtle. So when you start to then, in your choices and in your experiences, see that all of this is not self, you start relating to the world as not self. Eventually those fetters that are in the formations, the fetter of conceit that's in those formations, get eroded away.

And the ignorance, the fetter of ignorance that is in those formations, gets eroded away, because you keep making a choice to keep letting go whenever you see you're personalizing. Eventually that will then become a fruit of having the entry into arahatship. There, then you see contact with the nibbana element. You see the links, there's no involvement there. You have the relief, or that just complete letting go, but you understand that relief also arose because of a set of causes and conditions, which is the contact with the nibbana element. The contact with the nibbana element is empty. It has no self. There is no attachment of self to it. It is signless. One understands it to be impermanent. It is undirected, there is no attachment that will cause something that then gives rise to a feeling. That feeling is that relief. But because one sees that feeling dependent upon that contact, one doesn't take that feeling to be self, not taking that feeling to be as not self, or taking that feeling as not self, understanding it as impersonal.

One destroys the fetter of conceit and thereby destroys the other fetters dependent upon conceit, and finally ignorance, because one has continually practiced the four noble truths. Thank you, Delson. Actually, when I see the anagami who let go of five fetters, I feel like it's, wow, it's so... it means here they don't have any sensual desires. Oh wow, it means. How come I feel like that is kind of a real benefit? I can say I feel like, okay, what do you suggest? What do you suggest for someone

who is aspiring for anagami? Yeah, so it's really to understand that craving that arises. So with the sakadagami, I mean, once you become a sotapanna, your ticket to arahatship is basically booked, right? One way or another you're going to get to arahatship, whether it's in this life or a next step. So you should definitely celebrate if one becomes a stream entry. When it comes to sakadagami, they have reduced their experience of sensory desire because their mindfulness has become sharper, so whenever it arises they see it and they let it go. By doing that, then the anagami is when you get into the stage of the anagami. There is no even perception of an arising of craving, because nothing interests you anymore in the way interests the mind in the way of craving. Your aversion, you just see everything as, you know, a feeling dependent upon contact. So there won't be any craving in that way. There won't be any sensory craving. There won't be an ill will. They just understand, okay, if there is a pleasant situation

it's a pleasant situation for that time being, there's no craving for it to continue. If it's an unpleasant situation, they understand this is the reality of the situation. But there's still some clinging of self. There's still conceit, where when that experience is there, there's still that, oh, I am experiencing. Even though I am experiencing it, I'm not having any craving towards this experience. That's the difference. Whereas the arahat doesn't even say, I'm having this experience. They know that that experience is just a series of causes and conditions that have brought that experience. Thanks, Nathan. Thank you.

Any last questions? Wait for a few more seconds. Let's share some that. May suffering ones be suffering free, and the fear struck, fearless be. May the grieving shed our grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share its merit that we have thus acquired for the acquisitions of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, diverse and nagas of mighty power, share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Thank you, Delson. Thank you. Cool. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you everyone. Thank you.