May 15, 2021 – MN 43 – The Greater Series of Questions and Answers

Thank you Koon good morning good afternoon good evening everyone so I'm going to be reading from Vicky Bodhi's translation of Majjama Nikaya 43 Maha Vedala Sutta greater series of questions and answers thus have I heard on one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savati in Jettas Grove I'm not the Pindaka's Park then when it was evening the venerable maha kothita rose from meditation went to the venerable Sariputta and exchanged greetings with him so according to the commentaries, Maha Gautita was one of the exceptional monks, one of the exceptional arahats, who had the four analytical knowledges.

And the four analytical knowledges are in reference to understanding the effects of certain kamma, understanding the effects of certain causes, understanding the meaning of certain texts and so on. It's related to being able to understand the causes of certain effects, being able to understand the cause of certain karma, being able to understand how the Dhamma works in relation to the structures involved, like the path, the fruition, the different types of beings within the path and so on. Then there is the understanding of how best to convey that message, how best to use the conventional language to be able to explain the Dhamma in a way that is understandable and, more importantly, applicable. And then the fourth is really about how best they can convey it with certain metaphors, certain similes, different kinds of imagery, so that it's deeply embedded in the mind of the listener. When this courteous and amiable talk was finished he sat down at one side and said to the venerable Sariputta: "One who is unwise, one who is unwise is said, friend, with reference to what is this said? One who is unwise does not wisely understand

One does not wisely understand, friend, that is why it is said one is unwise. And what doesn't one wisely understand? One doesn't wisely understand this is suffering. One does not wisely understand this is the origin of suffering. One does not wisely understand this is the cessation of suffering. One does not wisely understand this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. One who does not wisely understand, does not wisely understand, friend, that is why it is said one who is unwise." So wisdom here is equated with the understanding of the four noble truths.

Understanding what it means in reference to suffering, understanding the cause of suffering and abandoning the causes of suffering, namely craving, ignorance and conceit, and one is able to realize and experience cessation of suffering, and one is able to cultivate the path. So even while one is on the path, or one is starting to develop the path, rather, it's possible that such a person might not wisely understand what's going on. They might not be wisely able to implement the different components of the path, or be able to recognize what the cessation of suffering is, or not be able to recognize what the cause of suffering is, and so on. Saying, "Good, friend," the venerable Maha Kotthita delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Sariputta's words. Then he asked him a further question: "One who is wise, one who is wise is said, friend, with reference to what is this said? One wisely understands. One wisely understands, friend, that is why it is said one who is wise. What does one wisely understand?

One wisely understands this is suffering. One wisely understands this is the origin of suffering. One wisely understands this is the cessation of suffering. One wisely understands this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. One wisely understands, one wisely understands, friend, that is why it is said one who is wise." So there's a couple of ways to understand wisdom in this reference. One is wisdom in relation to the four noble truths, that is the ultimate wisdom of establishing right view in the mind, having attained Arahatship. But there is also the wisdom in every moment, where one sees as one is developing the path when suffering arises

and to recognize its cause, which is namely craving, and then being able to let go of it through the six R's process, for example, and then experiencing that cessation of suffering, the cessation of craving. And by implementing this, one is actively cultivating and developing the fourth noble truth, the eightfold path, which is encapsulated in the six R's in the form of the four right efforts. The four right efforts are dependent upon, or right effort rather, is dependent upon its preceding factors. That is to say, it is dependent upon having right livelihood, and that is dependent upon having right speech and right action, and those are dependent upon having right intention. Right intention is dependent upon having right view, the mundane view and the supramundane view. There is an intellectual understanding of the four noble truths, but as one starts to apply it, one is recognizing how to apply it in the form of seeing how the links arise, in the way of craving, in the way of clinging, in the way of being, and then being able to let go through the six R's process. And thus understand, experience and realize

the cessation of suffering. So this understand, this word understand, really is another way to understand, or to recognize wisdom. This understanding is related to the word panna. It's related also to the word dhamma vichaya. So this is where one understands in the way of observing and understanding, not trying to understand, not trying to implement something, but just contemplating through observation and recognizing when some kind of craving arises, when some kind of hindrance arises. Then seeing that and letting it go, experiencing the third noble truth, having cultivated the fourth noble truth through right effort.

"Consciousness, friend, consciousness. Consciousness is said, friend, with reference to what is consciousness said? It cognizes, it cognizes, friend, that is why consciousness is said. What does it cognize? It cognizes this is pleasant, it cognizes this is painful, it cognizes this is neither painful nor pleasant. It cognizes, it cognizes, friend, that is why consciousness is said." So this is in reference to cognition, of cognizing and cognition, which is related to vinnana, that is consciousness. And in this perspective, what one should see is consciousness is referred to as that which understands the bare knowledge of something. So for example, when you go to a fire and you stick your hand into the fire for the first time

you cognize that the fire is warm, and then as you continue putting your hand on top of the fire, you start to see that the hand is burning, that this is painful, and that this is hot. So you let go. So you've learned that fire is hot. You learn that fire can be painful. You learn not to stick your hand into the fire. So it's a process of learning itself, it's a process of accumulating information at the first point of experience. Another one would be where you start to learn the alphabet for the first time. You recognize A, B, C and so on through perception, as we'll talk about a little bit later, but the first time you learn it, that is cognition of the letters of the alphabet. Same with any other learning experience, whether it's mathematics or whatever it might be. So it's the first time you're introduced to an experience, that is cognition.

In other words, to understand wisdom, to have wisdom, is dependent upon cognition. So when you have your first experience of seeing the links of dependent origination, that's actually cognizing the links of dependent origination, and that cognition then brings forth the experience of nibbana, the clarity and the wisdom that this whole process is impersonal, and so on. And then when you see it for a second time you might see other things. So there will be perception involved in the form of recognizing certain things, but there will also be cognition of seeing certain things for the first time, the second time around, and so on and so forth. So cognition is really seeing something for the first time, seeing something new or different for the first time, even if you've repeated that experience of seeing the links of dependent origination, because they become clearer and clearer as you continue down this process and progress towards full awakening.

"What is the difference, friend, between wisdom and consciousness, these states that are conjoined, not disjoined? The difference, friend, between wisdom and consciousness, these states that are conjoined, not disjoined, is this: wisdom is to be developed, consciousness is to be fully understood." So wisdom here is again in reference to understanding and experiencing the four noble truths. It's the understanding and experiencing of the links of dependent origination, being able to see the four noble truths present in each link of dependent origination. And how you do that is through the process of consciousness, of cognition. Now, consciousness is also one of the links of dependent origination. Consciousness is also one of the five aggregates.

So it's like you are looking at the links of dependent origination through mindfulness, dependent upon that cognition, dependent upon that consciousness, and then it reflects back and you're able to see wisely what is happening. And since consciousness is also a link of dependent origination, and since consciousness is also an aggregate, one of the five aggregates, it needs to be fully understood in reference to seeing consciousness as being impermanent, seeing consciousness as being conditioned and therefore can cause suffering, and therefore not worth holding on to. And then finally seeing consciousness as impersonal. So seeing it as impermanent, seeing it as suffering, and seeing it as impersonal, and in the seeing of this, wisdom is developed. So there's two things happening here when you start to see how consciousness arises and passes away in infinite consciousness.

You are fully understanding how it arises and passes away through causes and conditions. You're starting to see how it is impermanent because it arises and passes away. That with each iota of arising there is also a passing away, and the new consciousness that arises and passes away, and so on. In doing this the mind eventually gets bored of it. It eventually gets tired of it. So this is the insight into suffering, and seeing that there is no controller here. One understands that this consciousness is impersonal. That is the insight into anatta. This is how wisdom is developed, and this is how consciousness is understood.

Feeling, feeling is said, friend. With reference to what is feeling said? It feels, it feels, friend. That is why feeling is said. What does it feel? It feels pleasure, it feels pain, it feels neither pain nor pleasure. It feels, it feels, friend. That is why feeling is said. So cognition, as we understand cognizing, is the bare awareness of an experience. Feeling is the actual experience of whatever is arising. So that feeling can be an experience that could be pleasant, that could be painful, that could be neither pleasant nor painful. So it's both the experience and then the cognition of that. Which is to say, that wrecking first of all, being aware that that feeling, that experience, is somehow positive or negative or neutral, is the bare cognition for the first time that you experience it. Then being able to perceive it as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is perception. That is to say, you recognize this as being unpleasant, pleasant, and so on, because you have encountered this experience before.

So feeling has the different components, the different qualities, which is to say it can be pleasant, it can be unpleasant, or it can be neutral. But the actual experience itself is the feeling. And then recognizing it is perception. Seeing it for the first time as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is cognition. Perception is said, friend, with reference to what is perception said? It perceives, it perceives, friend. That is why perception is said. What does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, and it perceives white. It perceives, it perceives, friend. That is why perception is said.

So perception here can mean not just visual perception. It can mean auditory perception. It can mean olfactory perception, meaning smelling. It can mean tasting, perception of being able to recognize a taste. It can mean a touch perception, recognizing an experience of touch. Or it can mean mental perception, recognizing a certain thought or memory. Perception is always rooted in memory. So the first learning, again, to reiterate, the first process of learning and capturing information is consciousness. It's cognition. Then accessing that again by recognizing, having seen that before, is perception. So for example, encountering for the first time a certain type of tree

these three are basically interlinked. When you feel, when you have an experience, you perceive something by recognizing it, or you cognize it based on having seen it for the first time or experienced it for the first time. There is also just the bare awareness of the feeling, which is related to cognition, and the bare knowing or awareness of the perception of that feeling. So these three are always running around each other, basically dependent upon what is happening in that experience. Whether it's perceiving it based on memory, or cognizing based on learning, or just having the bare awareness of both of these in reference to cognition of feeling and perception.

And so he says, for what one feels, that one perceives, and what one perceives, that one cognizes. That is why these states are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is impossible to separate each of these states from the others in order to describe the difference between them. And then the question is, friend, what can be known by purified mind consciousness released from the five faculties? Friend, by purified mind consciousness released from the five faculties, the base of infinite space can be known. Thus, space is infinite. The base of infinite consciousness can be known. Thus, consciousness is infinite. And the base of nothingness can be known. Thus, there is nothing.

Friend, with what? Before we continue with that, here we're talking about the formless realms. We're talking about the ayatanas: the experience of infinite space, the experience of infinite consciousness, and the experience of nothingness. These are not dependent upon the body, dependent upon form. That's why it is only experienced through mind. It is a mental experience through the ayatanas. So after the fourth jhana, at that point the five faculties, which are the five physical senses, are diminished in their experience. And so whatever one is perceiving and experiencing in the way of infinite space, that is a mental experience.

That is a mental experience in the sense that that mind is purified by having gone through samadhi, and now is coming to the experience of infinite space or infinite consciousness or nothingness. Friend, with what does one understand a state that can be known? Friend, one understands a state that can be known with the eye of wisdom. So the eye of wisdom is really the understanding of investigation, because this is related again to dhamma vichaya. When you understand a certain state is present, you are using the faculty of investigation. You're using the factor of investigation, meaning you are understanding what that state is. You are discerning what that state is. That is another way to understand the eye of wisdom. Friend, what is the purpose of wisdom?

The purpose of wisdom, friend, is direct knowledge. Its purpose is full understanding. Its purpose is abandoning. So the eye of wisdom here, once it opens up, so to speak, when there is the supramundane understanding, there the four noble truths are completely understood and realized. And so the purpose of that wisdom is direct knowledge. That is to say, it's the direct knowledge of nibbana, the direct knowledge of the cessation of suffering. Its purpose is full understanding, that is the full understanding of what suffering is, what dukkha is. Its purpose is abandoning, abandoning craving, or tanha. Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view? Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another, and wise attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view.

So here, the voice of another is basically, in the Buddha's time, the Buddha or an arahant or another monastic who would introduce one to the Dhamma. The voice of another now can be understood as watching Dhamma talks on YouTube, listening to different Dhamma teachers and being able to clarify different kinds of questions and understanding through their voice. It could also mean reading through the suttas, being introduced to certain books related to the suttas, and so on. Why is attention here yoniso manasikara? So that is how I would translate it: the attention rooted in reality. That is to say, an attention that is completely present to what is arising and passing away, in reference to what is being understood.

So they are interdependent, meaning there is attention rooted in reality on the arising and passing away of different links of dependent origination. For example, if there's wise attention on feeling, if there's attention rooted in reality on feeling, it stops right there, the possibility of craving, because one is completely rooted in the present. One is completely mindful and cautious and careful in understanding what is arising, so one can recognize if craving arises. But if there is no wise attention, and why unwise attention, an attention that is not present, not mindful, then it can give rise to the potential of craving. And that craving can then give rise to the rest of the links and suffering.

So when there is the voice of another, when there is the introduction of the Dhamma by another, when there is clarification of the Dhamma by another, and then that is joined by attention, joined by listening, and being mindful of what arises in the way of that listening: what kinds of insight arise while one is listening? What kind of connections are being made as one listens or reads? What kind of perceptions are being made in reference to relating what is happening, and with what one has already experienced? This is also another understanding of wise attention, yoniso manasikara. And so when this happens, one continues to clarify the mind and purify the mind, and there then arises that right view. Friend, by how many factors is right view assisted when it has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance of mind for its fruit and benefit, when it has deliverance by wisdom for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit?

because there from that kind of purified mind purified by virtue by sila the mind becomes collected enough to be able to learn and absorb the concepts that are being discussed there the mind is void of any hindrances and listening in a way or learning in a way that the mind is able to learn by osmosis just by listening there's certain connections being made discussion so when there are conversations related to the dhamma when there are question and answer sessions related to the dhamma there one can continue to further clarify one's doubts clarify one's questions and serenity and insight that is to say you have the calmness of jhana practice but along with that you have the insight of vipassana so serenity and insight is already incorporated within twin that's why it is tranquil wisdom insight meditation these are conjoint not separate right view assisted by these five factors has deliverance of mind for its fruit deliverance of mind for its fruit and benefit it has deliverance by wisdom for its fruit deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit

friend how many kinds of being are there that's to say pava or existence there are these three kinds of being friend sense sphere being fine material being and immaterial being so in other words you have the sensual realms you have the form realms of the devas and the brahmas and the immaterial realm of infinite space infinite consciousness nothingness and neither perception and non-perception these are the three kinds of existence that you would have friend how is renewal renewal of being in the future generated so this renewal of being in other words is rebirth how is one able or how is it that there is rebirth possible through this renewal of being and so he says friend renewal of being in the future is generated through the delighting in this and that on the part of beings who are hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving so let's say there is a being who passes away and they pass away with certain remorse certain regrets or certain attachments

And in that process of death, they see certain things which cause them to have regret, or cause them to have aversion, cause them to have craving or attachment. And because they incline their mind towards these images with that aversion or attachment, that is the craving, that then projects the formations, which are fettered by that craving, which are hindered by that ignorance. So those formations then give rise to a consciousness that links to the next life, that links to the next being, and then dissipates when that being is conceived, and then another consciousness arises, and so on. So this is that renewal of being on the macro level. On the micro level, any time there is an experience and one has attachment to it, one has aversion to it, or identifies with it, it will give rise to clinging, and that clinging will give rise to being. That being, that bhava, will accumulate the different tendencies that are dependent upon that clinging and craving.

And those tendencies then will give rise to a certain type of action that is already rooted in kamma, and that action then will give rise to new kamma, which is in the form of suffering, which is in the form of different types of dukkha. And then on and on the cycle goes, because there is present in those actions, there is present in the perceiving of the feeling, in the seeing and taking of the feeling as personal, there is in those formations the fetters of craving, the fetters of conceit, the fetter of ignorance. So anytime one does not recognize that craving has arisen, there is the ignorance of that. There is then taking that personal, there is a conceit of that. When one further craves, there is the craving of that, and this gives rise to the other links and the renewal of being. Friend, how is renewal of being in the future not generated? Friend, with the fading away of ignorance, with the arising of true knowledge, and with the cessation of craving, renewal of being in the future is not generated.

So on the macro level, in the case of an arahant, there is no new consciousness that arises when the five aggregates are dissolved, because the mind of the arahant does not have any ignorance present in it. It doesn't have any conceit present in it. It doesn't have any craving present in it. And so any formations that arise, arise without any attachment, without any identification, without any aversion. And because of that, there is no fuel for those formations then to give rise to a new consciousness which can then link itself to a new being. So right there and then, because the mind of the arahant has done away with ignorance, done away with craving and conceit, there is no possibility of rebirth for the arahant on a micro level, whenever you have some kind of experience.

Look at it from the perspective of kamma. Anything you experience, in the way from formations all the way up to contact, feeling, and perception, is old kamma. It is the resultant effect of certain actions you did that were rooted in craving, actions that were rooted in ignorance, actions that were rooted in conceit. And so now this experience, this feeling that you are experiencing, is now that old kamma. Instead of taking that personally and then further craving for it, or further having aversion towards it and identifying with it, which will then cause new kamma to arise based on that reaction, just see it for what it is, as impersonal. Let go of it and see it flow away. See it arise and pass away without your involvement, without any personalizing, without any sense of not recognizing it to be impersonal, and so on. So in other words, you want to have the wisdom present there through mindfulness. You want to be able to recognize that this feeling that has arisen is impersonal. You want to be able to recognize it as impermanent, and not hold onto it, and therefore not create any reactions.

That will cause the mind further suffering, further kamma, for that reason further renewal of being. Now, that is how kamma is felt, experienced, and dissolved bit by bit through that process of experience. But it can be further renewed through taking it personally, by craving, by having aversion towards it, and then clinging, and then having the accumulation of tendencies, and so on. So it's important for that mindfulness to be present, or for that kamma to just continue on and be experienced and dissolved in that experience. That's not to say that that kamma is completely gone. There will be bits of kamma that arise and pass away, and then it might arise and pass away again. Whatever happens, you have to have the mindfulness to be able to recognize it as impersonal and let it go, not attached to it, have detachment towards it. Friend, what is the first jhana? Friend, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

This is called the first jhana. Well, that's pretty self-explanatory, since I'm sure all of you have experienced the first jhana. Friend, how many factors does the first jhana have? Friend, the first jhana has five factors. Here, when a bhikkhu has entered upon the first jhana, there occur applied thought, sustained thought, rapture, pleasure, and unification of mind. That is how the first jhana has five factors. So applied and sustained thought is vitakka and vicara, which is to say the initial application of thought, which is the intention

to apply the mind, to be mindful, or observe loving kindness, to bring up a feeling of loving kindness, and then allowing that loving kindness to arise based on one's mindfulness, one's attention. Then that gives rise to piti, the rapture, that gives rise to sukha, the ease and comfort that one feels, the happiness that one feels. Unification of mind. Here, ekaggata can be understood not as one-pointedness, not as absorption, not as where the mind unifies with its object. It can be understood as a mind that is around its object, that is surrounding the object. It is a mind that is preoccupied with the object.

So when you have certain thoughts, when you are paying attention to something, or when you are starting to think about something, your mind starts to become unified around it, and your mind becomes preoccupied with it. Now, there might be other thoughts in the background, because the mind is not absorbed. It still has other thoughts or hindrances that might arise, or certain thoughts that might arise, that one can recognize and let go of if the attention gets distracted away from what the mind is preoccupied with, so to speak. So this is another way to understand it, which is to say that the mind is involved with loving kindness. As an example, it is preoccupied with loving kindness, preoccupied with the feeling of love and kindness, where it's open enough to recognize when there might be some kind of hindrance that might arise, be able to let that go when the mind gets distracted, and come back to that loving kindness.

Friend, how many factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and how many factors are possessed? Friend, in the first jhana five factors are abandoned and five factors are possessed. Here, when a bhikkhu has entered upon the first jhana, sensual desire is abandoned, ill will is abandoned, sloth and torpor are abandoned, restlessness and remorse are abandoned, and doubt is abandoned. So here, what Sariputta is referring to is that whenever one is in jhana, the hindrances will not be present. So the mind is unified around loving kindness, and it is still quite open in its awareness, quite spacious. It's surrounding the loving kindness. And then when something arises in the way of a hindrance, which is the effect of old kamma, in which one may not have followed the precept accordingly, then there arises this hindrance. When a hindrance arises, one is no longer in jhana, but there is the mindfulness of this, the recognition of this. Then abandoning it by releasing the attention away from it, relaxing

and then generating a wholesome state of mind, replacing that hindrance with a wholesome state of mind, in the way of the re-smile, which gives rise to piti, which can give rise to other enlightenment factors, and so on, and the loving kindness. So then the mind gravitates back towards loving kindness, collects itself around the loving kindness. So anytime you are in jhana, the hindrances will not be present. Anytime the hindrances are present, you will not be in jhana. So when you see a hindrance, know that you are not in jhana, and use the 6R's to return back to jhana, where the mind is unified with its object.

Friend, as to these five faculties, that is the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue and the body, what do these five faculties stand in dependence on? Before we continue, let's discuss these five faculties, which are having mind as a resort, and the mind experiences their fields and domains. That means anything you are experiencing in the way of form, in the way of sounds, in the way of odors, in the way of taste, in the way of touch, that is being experienced by the mind itself. It arises through, or it arises when there is the contact with that faculty, with that sense space and the form in the case of the eye. When those two connect, there is the consciousness that arises. Now, this feeling is felt through the mind, though the experience seems to be happening through the eye. It is actually experienced by the mind itself.

And each faculty has its own domain, which means its own separate field and domain. That means there are certain connections with the eye and the mind that continue to experience the experience that the eye is experiencing, and along with the ear and the nose and so on, they don't crisscross. So now you have synesthesia, where somebody might hear something and at the same time be able to see a certain color dependent upon that sound. But that's not to say that you are seeing with your ear, although it could be described as that by certain people who have synesthesia.

What's happening is you're listening to something, and that gives rise to a corresponding response or reaction from the eye in the way of seeing color. So even in synesthesia it's not that it's crisscrossed. It's that the sound gives rise to a certain response from the eye faculty, but with regards to the eye faculty it is in dependence upon that. So it's connected with it from that angle, but it's not that there's any kind of crisscrossing of the domains and the fields. Friends, a friend as to these five faculties, that is the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty and the body faculty, what do these five faculties stand in dependence on? Friend, as to these five faculties, they stand in dependence on vitality. Vitality here is the life energy, or the life force, or the life faculty. So this vitality

is basically that which sends messages of the experience. So you can look at it from modern understanding, that it is the electrical impulses that arise and pass away that send messages based on what the experience is being pulled in through the different faculties, and giving rise to a certain experience based on the neural pathways, based on the activity of the nervous system. When there is no functioning of the nervous system, then there is no activity. There is no vitality. There is nothing present in the way of an experience. Friend, what does vitality stand in dependence on? Vitality stands in dependence on heat. So heat here is the warmth of the body, the warmth of a living body, and this is in connection to metabolism. This is where the cellular metabolism continues to function and gives the body its metabolism, to be able to convert energy, or convert food and nutriment into energy rather, and that energy then gives rise to that vitality, that energy that is metabolized

is able to help the nervous system function in a certain way, to be able to send the messages to the different sense faculties. Friend, what does heat stand in dependence on? Heat stands in dependence on vitality. So there is an interconnection, there's an interdependence between the nervous system and the different neurotransmitters that give certain messages all across the body, to be able to metabolize in a certain way. And likewise, when there's metabolism, it is able to provide correct functioning of these neurotransmitters. Just now, friend, we understood the venerable, sorry, put that, to have said vitality stands in dependence on heat, and now we understand him to say heat stands in dependence on vitality.

How should the meaning of these statements be regarded in that case? Friend, I shall give you a simile. For some wise men here understand the meaning of a statement by means of a simile. Just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance is seen in dependence on its flame, and its flame is seen in dependence on its radiance, so too vitality stands in dependence on heat, and heat stands in dependence on vitality. So he uses this analogy of the oil lamp, where when you have the flame there's a certain radiance, and because of that flame you can see the radiance, or you can notice the radiance, but because of that radiance you can also notice the flame itself. It's an interesting simile. But if you look at it from a modern understanding, using vitality from the perspective of the different communication that happens throughout the nervous system, and heat as metabolism, you can see the connections between the two, where cells will give certain messages to neurotransmitters and vice versa. So there is this homeostasis, this harmony, that is working in conjunction, and they are dependent upon each other for correct functioning.

Friend, are vital formations things that can be felt, or vital formations one thing and things that can be felt another? Vital formations, friend, are not things that can be felt. If vital formations were things that can be felt, then a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling would not be able to, would not be seen to emerge from it, because vital formations are one thing and things that can be felt another. A bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling can be seen to emerge from it. So vital formations here are ayu sankhara. Ayu sankhara is the longevity of a body. Another way to understand it is that again it's related to that life energy, it's related to the functioning of the body, but you don't necessarily feel the neurotransmitters, you don't necessarily feel the metabolism, you don't necessarily feel the longevity. It's just an ongoing, automatic, impersonal process. But the feeling and perception here are not rooted or dependent upon these experiences. In other words, because you don't feel it, there's no connection between the experience

and the actual process that's happening in the way of metabolism and vitality and longevity and so on. Feeling and perception is one thing, in the way of actual mental experience that you feel and perceive, and these processes is another thing, which run on their own, in the sense that they're not connected to the feeling and perception. So when you have the cessation of feeling and perception, that doesn't mean, since there is a cessation of feeling and perception, that these processes which are not felt, which are not perceived, that do not continue on. When there is a cessation, they continue in the way of metabolism, they continue in the way of vitality, to let the body function for at least up until seven days, after which it dissipates, and the body will die because of the lack of metabolism, because of the lack of vitality.

So that's why the metabolism continues to keep the body alive while there is the cessation of perception and feeling, because that's one thing. That's the mentality that's part of that, but this is just the bodily process that's happening, that one cannot really experience. So when you emerge from it, the vitality is always still there, the heat is always still there. So when you emerge from it, it just continues on like it has continued on before, and during cessation of perception and feeling. Friend, when this body is bereft of how many states is it then discarded and forsaken, left lying senseless like a log? Friend, when this body is bereft of three states, vitality, heat and consciousness, it is then discarded and forsaken, left lying senseless like a log.

So that's the dead body. It no longer metabolizes. It no longer has any vitality in it, and there is no consciousness present in such a body. Friend, what is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling? Friend, in the case of one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat has been dissipated, and his faculties are fully broken up. In the case of a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation

of perception and feeling, his bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided, but his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not been dissipated, and his faculties become exceptionally clear. This is a question that one often gets in reference to: what does that mean, that the faculties become exceptionally clear? So to understand it, it just means that because there's no activity going on through those faculties, those faculties are exceptionally clear, or void of any activity, but they are present. They are functional but not functioning. They have the potential to once again be able to feel and perceive, but in the case, and they are dependent upon, remember, the vitality. But because in the dead body there is no vitality, those faculties are broken. They no longer function, and they're not functional. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling.

Now we're going to get into the deliverance of mind. So there are different contexts to be able to understand deliverance of mind, and I'll explain it as we continue. Friend, how many conditions are there for the attainment of the neither painful nor pleasant deliverance of mind? Friend, there are four conditions for the attainment of the neither painful nor pleasant deliverance of mind: here, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither pain nor pleasure, and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

These are the four conditions for the attainment of the neither painful nor pleasant deliverance of mind. So deliverance of mind is on the super mundane level, the liberation of the mind. But there is also the temporary deliverance of mind whenever you are in jhana, in this case the fourth jhana, which is being referred to, because there is the temporary deliverance of mind from the hindrances. And so in that, there is deliverance of mind in that process of jhana. There is that deliverance of mind. So this is the mundane way of understanding that deliverance of mind. Friend, how many conditions are there for the attainment of the silence signless deliverance of mind? Friend, there are two conditions for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind: non-attention.

to all signs and attention to the signless element these are the two conditions for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind so the signless deliverance of mind is a different kind of experience it is a different kind of collectedness that arises and it is it is deeper than quiet mind when you are in neither perception or non-perception quiet mind is the subject or the object rather and quiet mind is very subtle it's very subtle but there is still some kind of object so to speak being taken as an object which is that quiet mind but you let go of that as well and you go deeper where all there is is a mind or you can see the mind's attention

no longer on an object, and what it's doing is the mind's attention is like a light or a laser beam, and it continues on without touching an object. It just continues on. It doesn't land on anything. Its awareness doesn't land on anything as an object, and so it is a kind of objectless, so to speak, meditation. And so signless deliverance of mind is also in reference to nibbana itself, because there's no object there when one is in that fruition consciousness, when one is in the attainment of taking nibbana as an object, when it isn't an object, where the mind inclines towards the nibbana element. But in terms of the signless collectedness of mind, this is how one does it: one lets go of quiet mind, and the mind's attention just continues looking, but it's not looking at something in particular. So that signless element, so to speak, is the nibbana element from the supermundane view, but on the mundane level it's basically just an objectless attention, an objectless awareness, which doesn't land on anything.

Friend, how many conditions are there for the persistence of the signless deliverance of mind? Friend, there are three conditions for the persistence of the signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs, attention to the signless element, and the prior determination of its duration. These are the three conditions for the persistence of the signless deliverance of mind. Now, this applies. This third aspect is the prior determination. This can happen and be cultivated when you do determination for jhana. Same way you apply it to cessation of perception and feeling, you apply it to this state, this collectedness of the signless state, or you apply it to taking nibbana as the object, the experience of nibbana as an object, and determining how long the mind will be taking nibbana, so to speak, as the object. And so because of that prior determination, it persists for that duration of time. Friend, how many conditions are there for the emergence from the signless deliverance of mind? Friend, there are two conditions for emergence from the signless deliverance of mind: attention to all signs and non-attention to the signless element. These are the two conditions

for the emergence from the signless deliverance of mind. So to make it easy to understand, it's basically the mind now picks an object. So if the mind goes away from the signless concentration, or silence collected in this mind, it just takes an object and no longer is in that signless state. Likewise, when one continues to watch, then the five aggregates or perceives a certain object after nibbana, there then is no longer the signless state. Friend, the immeasurable deliverance of mind, the deliverance of mind through nothingness, the deliverance of mind through voidness, and the signless deliverance of mind, are these states different in meaning and different in name, or are they one in meaning and different only in name?

Friend, the immeasurable deliverance of mind, the deliverance of mind through nothingness, the deliverance of mind through voidness, and the signless deliverance of mind, there is a way in which these states are different in meaning and different in name, and there is a way in which they are one in meaning and different only in name. What, friend, is the way in which these states are different in meaning and different in name? So in other words, how are these states different from one another? Meaning, they provide a different quality of experience and obviously have different names. Here a bhikkhu abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving kindness

likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. So above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with love and kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will. Likewise for compassion, for joy, and equanimity. And so this is called the immeasurable deliverance of mind. And so when you are radiating any of the brahma viharas, your mind is delivered from the ill will, delivered from all of the hindrances, first and foremost. But remember, the brahma viharas are also antidotes for certain things, like loving kindness being an antidote for being unfriendly, or having none, for having ill will. Compassion being an antidote for having violent thoughts or cruel thoughts. Joy, or empathetic joy, being an antidote for jealousy and envy, and equanimity being an antidote for restlessness, for becoming agitated, and so on. So that's one way to understand it. This deliverance of mind is when you are radiating, your mind is free of these different hindrances.

And it is also delivered when there is wisdom involved. So you can have loving kindness, you can radiate love and kindness, you can radiate joy, you can radiate equanimity. At the level of nothingness, there has been an experience where one was able to have the experience of cessation of nibbana from nothingness onwards. So that object there was the radiating of equanimity. It had bypassed either perception or non-perception and just entered cessation of perception and feeling, because there was wisdom involved. There was a seeing of what was happening, conjoined with the experience of radiating equanimity. And what, friend, is the deliverance of mind through nothingness? Here, with the complete surmounting of the base of infinite consciousness

aware that there is nothing, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness. This is called the deliverance of mind through nothingness. So when you no longer are radiating joy and it changes to equanimity, and then also part of that is when you no longer see the arising and passing away of consciousness, but rather see the space in between each arising and passing away, which then becomes broader and broader and broader. Until you see, some people describe it as darkness, or some kind of light, or whatever it might be, but basically there's nothing there. Mind is no longer inclined towards activity in terms of external events and actions and things like that, no longer concerned with mental thoughts and things like that. It's just watching and perceiving this nothingness. So this is another kind of deliverance of mind, that is to say the temporary deliverance of mind from the hindrances and so on. And what, friend, is the deliverance of mind through voidness?

Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, reflects thus: this is void of a self or of what belongs to a self. This is called the deliverance of mind through voidness. So the emptiness deliverance of mind, this is also another kind of collectedness in which one perceives the not-self aspect of each of the five aggregates. One sees the not-self aspect, anatta, of the sixth sense basis, and the mind naturally inclines towards this experience of voidness. And that voidness qualitatively is similar to the experience of nothingness, but it doesn't take the perception of nothingness as the object. There's no perceiving of nothingness. There is just no inclination of taking anything as personal

taking anything as an object of personality, so to speak. And so this deliverance of mind through voidness is the insight of the arising and passing away of consciousness being impersonal. That's why it's qualitatively similar to the experience of nothingness. And what, friend, is the signless deliverance of mind? Here, with non-attention to all signs, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the signless collectedness of mind. This is called the signless deliverance of mind. So we already discussed this, where the mind doesn't take anything as an object and just its attention continues, continues on without landing anywhere. And so this is the signless collectedness of mind, and this is called the signless deliverance of mind

This is the way in which these states are different in meaning and different in name: meaning, they are different experiences and they have different qualities and different names. And what, friend, is the way in which these states are one in meaning and different only in name? So in other words, how are these states that are being described similar or the same, rather, in terms of the experience but just different ways of calling that experience? Lust is a maker of measurement. Hate is a maker of measurement. Delusion is a maker of measurement.

This is the way in which these states are one in meaning, meaning these states can describe that experience of nibbana and the experience of how an arahant's mind functions, and different only in name, having different names. That is what the venerable Sariputta said. The venerable Maha Kotita was satisfied and delighted in the venerable Sariputta's words. Any questions, comments? I have a question. Yeah. So the meditation using the wideness, basically taking no object, but is it right to understand that we are having that perception of not taking something as self? And in that sense, is it more closely related to nothingness, or is it somewhere in between nothingness and the

signless state, where the mind is perceiving what is happening in the present moment but not necessarily taking anything as an object? Does that make sense to you, or do I have to replace the question? Uh, so you're saying you're referring to the voidless, or the void, state of mind, the state of mind that perceives the voidness, and you're talking about the experience of nothingness as well? Right. And how they are different, what is the difference between the two? Yeah, they're actually very similar. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, in Majjhima Nikaya 106

the Buddha talks about some of the ways in which one can get into nothingness, and one of the ways is in reference to seeing the emptiness of the five aggregates, seeing the emptiness of the world through the sixth sense base, and so on. And so one has an experience of nothingness. It's just that the gateway to it is a different way of looking at it. So it is qualitatively similar in terms of the experience, but this is just another way of looking at it from a different perspective. Just a follow-up question: so it's possible to enter the state of nothingness through equanimity as an object of meditation, and also through the wideness? Is that the right understanding? Yeah, that's right. There are different ways to actually enter nothingness. I think there's at least three different ways that are mentioned in Majjhima Nikaya 106 in which one can experience nothingness: equanimity, and then of course seeing emptiness of the five aggregates. Another way that other people have experienced it is by having the mind turn inward and look at itself, so in other words, looking at the thought itself

and then the thought itself passing away, and in that absence seeing the space between one thought and the next. The mind turns inward on. Thank you, Dev. I have a follow-up comment on what Bharat said. Like, actually, in suttas, whenever it's referring to voidness, it just says that any jhana can be a void, can be considered as a voidness, because there is something lacking there.

Why that is, that is a void, void of whatever is not there. But in that sense we can also call nothingness a kind of wideness. But I don't know what so-state Bharat is referring to as a wideness. Is it a signless state? Yeah. So what you're talking about is again in reference to the shorter discourse on emptiness, which is that one understanding of voidness, which is a state that is empty of the previous factors of a previous state. In other words, like you said, nothingness can be a sense of voidness because it's void of the factors of its preceding jhana or arupa state of infinite consciousness. That's one way of seeing sunnata, which is actually voidness. The second is seeing the anatta experience, or seeing this impersonal nature of the five aggregates or of the six sense bases. That's another way of understanding sunnata, which is to say that you're seeing... because there is a question that Ananda puts forth to the Buddha, and he says, emptiness, emptiness, what is this emptiness of the world? And the Buddha says

you know, each of these five aggregates is empty of a self. The world is empty of a self. So this is the second understanding of sunnata, of voidness. Okay. Hi Delson, thank you for your talk. I have a question about the first jhana, the five factors: the same thought, applied thought, unification of mind, pleasure and rapture. The pleasure, but in particular, is this... I'm assuming at the first jhana the pleasure is mental and still physical at that point?

Because I've heard other speakers talk about the physical pleasure that people get from jhanas, and then they refer to, I think it's Majjhima Nikaya 29, and they talk about how you can be attached to these pleasures of jhana, because they'll all lead you to awakening in the long run. But I feel like I don't fully understand this pleasure component of jhanas. Is it purely physical, purely mental, both, at one point, one falls out? And what is the pleasure that people seem to pursue in jhana? Right. If you go back to the first jhana description, it says a pleasure born of seclusion. So this seclusion is the seclusion of the five physical senses. In other words, one is no longer paying attention to the experience of the five physical senses, but is turning inward, so the mind is now experiencing the pleasure born from that. But this can manifest in different ways. People have experienced that pleasure on the physical sense in the first, second and third jhana

well, the first and second jhana with reference to piti and sukha, with reference to the first, second and third jhana, but they have experienced physical manifestations of this mental pleasure, like a certain heat in the body, or the hands get warm, or they feel like a spike of energy through their spine, or different kinds of manifestations. But I would say that these kinds of things are sort of just manifestations of the physical of releasing tension, releasing craving, and really being able to experience that joy mentally. So it's a, you can call it a psychosomatic experience in that sense. But it should be understood to be primarily mental pleasure that it's being referred to.

So it sounds like the source of the pleasure is mental, and it might trickle on down to the body, and we might confuse that for a physical pleasure of the genre, but it's not, it's a mental pleasure that just ended up trickling down, if you will, impacting our physical. Okay, because you're still experiencing the body, you're still having connection with the body for the first four jhanas. That's why it's called the rupa jhana, so you will still experience some manifestation in the body of that pleasure. Go ahead, you were saying. I was going to say something similar, which is: and so when we get to the rupa jhanas and the pleasure won't manifest itself physically anymore, moving from that point on the pleasure will be purely mental, because we're now in the realm of arupa jhana. Yeah. In the case of the arupa jhanas you don't feel the piti; only in the infinite consciousness you experience the sympathetic joy

which is a different kind of quality to that experience. So you will feel pleasure in the form of love and kindness, pleasure in the form of compassion, pleasure in the form of that kind of joy, pleasure in the form of, well, equanimity. Is not really a pleasure, so to speak, but you feel light and tranquil and so on, mentally. Thank you. Hi Delson. I'm still a little bit unsure about the signless state. I just want to clarify: is signless state then the cessation of the neither perception nor non-perception? And what is that difference from the deathless state that we always talk about?

Buddha always mention about the deathless state, are they the same? So you're saying if the signless state is the same as cessation of perception and feeling, is that what you're talking about? Yeah, that's one. Yeah, yeah. So let me address that first question, and the second question, which is the deathless state. The first question, I would say, is the way I have experienced it, the way I have understood it to be, is that the signless state is a different kind of meditation, so to speak. It's not always in the scope

of the... it's not always mentioned in the scope of the eight jhanas, obviously, or the first four jhanas and the arupa jhanas, but there is reference to it in other ways, where Moggallana is experiencing the signless collectedness of mind and so on. The way I have understood it is that the mind lets go of the quiet mind as an object as well, so it's an objectless meditation. It's a meditation in which the mind doesn't have any object whatsoever. See, there is still some kind of cognition present in the process of this bare awareness, this awareness that doesn't land on any kind of an object. And then the cessation of perception and feeling is where there's absolutely no perception and feeling.

There's absolutely no way to experience anything there. There's still some kind of an experience of the signless state, but there's no experience in cessation. So at that signless stage, do you have a thought, an inner thought that tells us what state we are? Do you have that? No, you wouldn't have that, because that would be an object. It would be a sign. Wow. So another way to clarify it is: there is an intention to go into that state, just the same way there's an intention to go into cessation of perception and feeling. So when you go back to Majjhima Nikaya 121, the Buddha talks about the different levels of emptiness in relation to each jhana, or each arupa jhana, being empty of the preceding states. Then he talks about the signless state, and he says there is still some formations present that have built up this state, where cessation of perception and feeling

is void of any formations present there except for the ayu sankhara which continues to keep the body alive and so on and so forth, but there's no formations moving in that state, whereas because there is a process of awareness, it's dependent upon the activity of certain formations. Okay, okay, I got you. Now, what about the deathless state? Yeah, so the deathless state would be basically another word for nibbana, right? Nibbana being the void of any death, because there is no more birth, so there is no more death. There is no more concept of death present for one who is in nibbana, because there is no one there to die. There's no aggregates that one personalizes, it personalizes with, to die or to experience some kind of end.

Okay, another weird question, probably you know. For those that liberated through the threefold knowledge, you know, the development of the divine eye and seeing the past life and then the destruction of the asavas, they only go through, go up to the fourth jhana is that right they don't they don't go through the arupa jhana all the way to neither perception or non-perception and cessation is that right okay yeah usually the fourth jhana is the base from which then one goes to the threefold knowledge when you have the experience of neither perception and non-perception you will have an experience where you see formations and some formations will be because of certain past life memories because of certain past life experience but it's more grounded in the fourth genre where there is very solid equanimity from which then one can apply the mind towards the threefold knowledge

Okay, so I have a— oh, I'm sorry, a follow-up to her question. So if you wanted to try going from the eighth jhana, if you do see those past lives instead, could you just try it and do it that way, or is it just you said it's more grounded in the fourth? You could, but it wouldn't make sense to do so, because at that point you're no longer in the eighth jhana, first and foremost, and secondly, those formations are so

like they're little wisps that you're not real. The mind is not able to really look at them clearly. In the fourth jhana it's much easier to incline the mind towards those formations and then be able to look at what choice was made, and then continue on through previous choices and so on, through those formations. Okay, that makes sense. Thank you. I'm going to have a question on signless state. The reason to enter signless state is because it is finer than nothingness, or can I say that there is some suffering in nothingness that can be let go by cessation state? Can I say that?

that can be and that can be uh let go by scientist state can i say that so you have to understand all of the eight genres as well as the signless state are conditioned and because they are conditioned there is the potential for dukkah to be present in there if you take it personal if you identify with it that's why there is that difference between cessation of perception and feeling and the experience of the signless because it's still conditioned by formations here the cessation of perception and feeling is a complete cessation of all formations which don't give rise to any consciousness don't give rise any to any feeling or perception so it is more refined than neither perception or non-perception the signless state so the way you would look at it is you have nothingness then you have neither perception or non-perception and then you have a signless state in that regard would you say cognition is sharper in the signless collectiveness compared to native perception or non-perception where there's some sometimes likened to a sleepy yeah the signless state there is

the way to explain it would be that it is just consciousness present, meaning because there's no object to perceive, there's just this bare awareness, there's just this bare flowing awareness. So there is an understanding that one is in the signless state only after one comes out of the silent state as well. So that signless state, because it doesn't take any objects, just continues with the bare awareness. So that's why it's much subtler, and there's not really much perception going on there either.

And when I say perception, I'm referring to that part of the mind that labels and is able to recognize certain things present there. That's clear, Delson. I have a question. My name is Buna. It is regarding the five faculties. You say take refuge to the mind. So does it mean that when we see something, that is the bare awareness, and then the mind will be the concept? Is it like that? Can you say that again, please? You say, oh, the five faculties, the refuge is the mind.

So does it mean that the first time when the eye sees something, that is the bare awareness, and then the mind that experienced what I see is a concept, or how you interpret? So that bare awareness is actually, for example, the eye consciousness aware of the experience of the eye faculty. Then the feeling that arises from that is the experience that one is actually feeling, the quality of that experience. There is still an awareness of that, so there's cognition of the feeling if it's experienced for the first time, or there is a recognition in the way of perception which recognizes that feeling as being pleasant, painful, or neutral. So there's a bare awareness to the sensation or to the experience first, and then there's an application of what that experience is in terms of the quality of that experience.

Okay, so what does it mean by the refuge to the mind? The faculties take refuge to the mind. I would say that it's not that they take refuge there. It's that they originate from the mind, meaning the experience of what is being experienced is happening through the mind itself. Meaning the eye itself is not experiencing the form. It's just collecting information in the way of photons, or the ear is collecting information in the way of frequencies and sound waves. The mind then is able to understand what it is. So it all originates from the mind. The experience itself originates from the mind.

So someone also mentioned concepts arise through perception, so do you want to clarify that, please? That was me. It's my understanding that conceptualizing arises through the memory of perception. Before that, it's still the experience. But when we are talking about a book, it's perception that gets into action. That's what I meant to clarify. So, as Buna said, the five faculties have the bare awareness, but the conceptualizing experience through the mind— I was trying to become more detailed, namely specific— the perception part of the mind is what makes, what creates the concepts.

Yes. Yes, that's exactly it. Good. Thank you. Then the question is, can we say the five sense inputs join to the brain? Yes, exactly. The brain being the central hub through which then you have certain elements, or certain parts of the brain, that deal with the sensory experience as well as the perception of that experience. Delson, I have a practical question. If we're done with this, I'm not sure if there's still a follow-up on this topic. I just wanted to clarify something that I had said earlier, which was in reference to the signless state. I crisscrossed the one statement which I just remembered, which is I said that the signless state can only be understood after you come out of it. I meant to say cessation of perception and feeling is what you can experience or understand when you come out of it. Signless state, there is still an understanding of being in the silent state, so to speak. So for the person who asked the question, I wanted to

clarify that, but go ahead, please. I just want a little bit of clarity on how we talk about jhanas, because from practical terms, on the one hand I understand that you don't control jhanas. It has something you do because that's craving. When the conditions are right, when your practice has been right, they rise. You're not supposed to attach to them. They happen, they go away. You just keep observing and 6R-ing. But then there's a way in which we talk about jhanas where we say, I'm going to go into second jhana for 20 minutes, and I'm going to practice fifth jhana for 10 minutes, and when I get to the fourth jhana I'm going to look up my past lives. So it feels like conflicting messages to me. On the one hand I don't try to go into jhanas, I don't control them, they arise when the conditions are right, and then we talk about jhanas as something that we do, and we

practice, and I use them to figure out my past lives. So it just hit me right now that it's like mixed messages. So, what's the approach, what's the practice, what's the help? To clarify, the initial intention to go into a jhana is all you need, and then you observe what is happening in that process of jhana. So it always begins with a certain intention, whether you're talking about determinations, where there's an intention to go into jhana for 20 minutes or come out of jhana after 20 minutes, or whatever it might be. That's it. And then you just keep observing the factors of that jhana, the mind experiencing that jhana. If it's just where you start off with your practice, with the experience of, let's say, radiating compassion or radiating love and kindness, there is an initial intention

right. So using that analogy of the lake, the still lake, you have the intention, the initial intention of dropping the pebble, and then you're watching how it just radiates on its own. It starts to just create these movements. So that initial intention of going into jhana, initial intention of experiencing a jhana, is what is required, and then you just observe what's going on. That's it. That's all you're observing at that point. Now, when it comes to things like going into past lives and stuff like that, when you're in the fourth jhana, there is an intention, there's an inclination of mind to look at different past lives. The way it works is you're again still observing, but there's an initial intention of looking at a certain point in time, maybe a choice you made or whatever it might be, and letting that rewind on its own. So the initial intention is the initial inclination of mind towards that, and then you're observing how it starts to rewind. You're not controlling that process from there. You're just observing. So, all right. So it almost sounds like

I can start cold turkey into jhana, if I just sit down and say I'm going to do nothingness, or set an intention to start at nothingness, and then see the intention and see what happens. Is that correct? Because I guess in some ways this practice has always started with loving-kindness, and then just seeing what happens, and ending up in all kinds of different places. But I always felt that wherever I ended up, and whatever came up, was not up to me. Now I'm hearing that it could be part of the practice to say, let me start at nothingness.

Just the way I say, let me start at loving-kindness, you're saying I could start at nothingness, and not start in the jhana, right, but start with the intention to go into that jhana, right? When you sit down for meditation, initially, what are your thoughts about it? What are the thoughts that go through your mind? Isn't there some kind of intention behind that meditation? So that intention is what I'm talking about. In the same way, if you say that I'm going to send loving-kindness, even that process of sending loving-kindness, you have to look at it this way: there's already an intention set in the meditation that you're going to go into loving-kindness. Now all you're doing is observing how the factors for that loving-kindness arise. They could arise because of a visualization, an image, a verbalization, whatever it might be. That's the initial application of thought, and then you're observing how the mind is just aware of loving-kindness, sending it out to a spiritual friend, or sending it out radiating, in the case of radiating the loving-kindness.

You sit down on meditation and say, okay, now I'm going to radiate compassion, or I'm going to radiate equanimity. So with that intention in mind, you then become aware of the experience of the mind sinking into that feeling of loving-kindness, or sinking into that feeling of equanimity. In the same way, that intention drops, and it just goes and starts to radiate on its own. There's always an initiation, or initializing, of the meditation through intention. That's like you just set that, and then you just keep observing it after. So to the extent that, that's why the Buddha talks about formations and intentions being still conditioned, and that's why the jhanas are still conditioned. But you don't want to make matters worse by continuing to try to control things and look for certain things. You just have the initial intention and keep observing what's happening after that. Okay, thank you. Makes sense. Yes. Okay, somebody said, yeah, hello.

yes uh in regard to the uh immeasurable deliverance of mind when you were saying that we could i have two questions here i have one question is about immeasurable deliverance of mind that you just was talking about like the intention of like radiating and you mentioned earlier as the four brahma vihara as antidote to uh to the five hindrances so um does that mean that um when we started with that it will eventually actually get us to uh the the sinus like we doesn't need to start with the intention of sinus or nothingness or voyness which is my second question that we can start with different intentions right so first is that if we started with the four brahmariharas it will actually eventually take us to the sinus or the nothingness there is that correct first question second question is that you were just mentioning what humer was asking that the starting of the uh the intention can be uh in different like uh towards different objects which is nothingness or awareness or

the not the the non-object of sinus so is that the second question is also like can we establish it yes yeah so the first question is you initially you start with an intention of the brahma vihars you know sending out the brahma vihars and so on see that naturally progresses into then the state of quiet mind so in order to go into the signless state then the mind no longer has to take quiet mind as an object at that point so it's just letting the mind drop away its meditation or attention on the object and let the attention just keep flowing that's one the second part is when you can have an intention to go into signless state is that what you're asking the second question is that um is uh is do we scan because i noticed there is other practice that people started with a question of uh like uh who is meditating so they're trying to get themselves into a non-identification

or a signless. So my second question is, is there a difference that we can start with a different intention in meditation, instead of starting with the four brahmaviharas? Or is there a possibility that people are starting with nothingness, or they're asking, my experience from previous, like in the Zen tradition, that they have this practice of asking who is meditating, who is... So I would assume, I'm not sure. That's my second question. Is that they can start it with, maybe that is called signless, or maybe that is called nothingness

or whyness so i'm not too sure is that is the possible uh yeah that's that yeah so that that's they can start that's the voidness yeah sorry go ahead no yeah that's the second question so the stuff so that's the intention there is yeah to go into the state of voidness uh you have the intention of looking at the emptiness of each of the five aggregates so like you said in your center in the zen tradition it's asking who is meditating but that's not the way to begin here what you're doing is just looking at how it's just an impersonal process and there have been people within this community that have done that there have been people who after having meditated for quite some time they will just be able to experience that voidness even while not sitting in meditation experience the voidness while doing the dishes or experience that voidness while just walking and then suddenly the mind becomes completely quiet and experiences that nothingness or experiences that voidness or experiences that signless state so it starts off with some initial application some initial intention

and then it naturally progresses into that experience is that clarifying question yeah so we are i think you understand thank you yeah so uh there was somebody who commented saying in namarupa we have intention japan was there something you wanted to discuss about that or just a comment it was just a comment like intention is part of dependent origination yes intention is part of the kind of origination that's right so intention uh will always be there whenever you have any kind of conditioned state including the johns that's why when you go to majumanikaya 111 when sariputta discusses the different states that came and uh well arose and passed away he also includes in their chetan he includes intention in each of the factors of pajamas and the arupa johns any last questions or should we share marriage i'll give you 30 more seconds

hi delson i have a very quick question yes um um yes um so in the base of nothingness. I think in terms of our practice, we're still able to continue to 6R the formations. But in terms of the signless state, there's still formations in there from what you described. So for a person enters into those states without the 6R process, would they be eventually able to know how to 6R? know how to 6R those formation?

Yeah, OK. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, that's my question. So when you're in neither perception or non-perception, you're taking quiet mind as the object, right? It just rests on that object of quiet mind, where it's completely tranquil. There are certain formations that arise, you see certain disconnected images now if the mind perceives it fully which means the mind recognizes it and starts to get drifted away then you do the six hour process to come back to quiet mind and let the mind continue to be silent but there's still the awareness resting on this notion this object of quiet mind in the silent state there will still be formations but the mind here is not resting on any object so what is happening here instead is if the mind takes anything whether it's a distraction a hindrance of formation or anything as an object then it's no longer in the signless state so one six hours again but doesn't let the mind return to an object instead what you're returning to is just the awareness that continues on without landing on any heart.

Thank you, Tessin. Okay, let's share some. May suffering ones be suffering free and the fear struck, fearless being. May the grieving shed all grief and may all beings find relief. May all All beings share this merit that we have thus acquired for the acquisitions of all kinds of happiness. May being inhabiting space and earth, Devers and Naga's almighty power share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. Thank you Delson, thank you Koon.