Nov 22 2020 - MN 121 - The Shorter Discourse on Voidness - The Signless and Empty Mind of an Arahant

Thank you, Khun. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, everyone. So I'm going to be reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Chula Sunyata Sutta, a shorter discourse on voidness or emptiness, at Savatthi in the Eastern Park in the palace of Migara's mother. Then when it was evening, the Venerable Ananda rose from meditation, went to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him, he sat down at one side and said to the Blessed One, Venerable Sir, on one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Sakyan country, where there is a town of the Sakyans named Nagaraka, from the Blessed One's own lips.

Now, Ananda, I often abide in voidness. Did I hear that correctly, Venerable Sir? Did I learn that correctly, attend to that correctly, remember that correctly? Certainly, Ananda, you heard that correctly, learned that correctly, attended to that correctly, remembered that correctly. I often abide in voidness. Ananda, just as this palace of Migara's mother is void of elephants, cattle, horses and mares, void of gold and silver, void of the assembly of men and women, and there is present only this non-voidness, namely the singleness dependent on the Sangha of bhikkhus, therefore, a bhikkhu, not attending to the perception of village, not attending to the perception of people, attends to the singleness dependent on the perception of forest.

His mind enters into that perception of earth and acquires confidence, steadiness, and resolution. Just as a bull's hide becomes free from folds when fully stretched with a hundred pegs, so too a bhikkhu, not attending to any of the ridges and hollows of this earth, to the rivers and ravines, the tracks of stumps and thorns, the mountains and uneven places, attends to the singleness dependent on the perception of earth. His mind enters into that perception of earth and acquires confidence, steadiness, and resolution.

It is subject to cessation. When he knows and sees this, his mind is liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it is liberated, there comes the knowledge: it is liberated. He understands: birth is destroyed; the holy life has been lived; what had to be done has been done; there is no more coming to any state of being. He understands thus: whatever disturbances there might be dependent on the taint of sensual desire, those are not present here. Whatever disturbances there might be dependent on the taint of being, those are not present here. Whatever disturbances there might be dependent on the taint of ignorance, those are not present here.

Whatever recluses and Brahmins in the future will enter upon and abide in pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness, all will enter upon and abide in the same pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness. Whatever recluses and Brahmins in the present enter upon and abide in pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness, all enter upon and abide in the same pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness. Therefore, Ananda, you should train thus: We will enter upon and abide in pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness. This is what the Blessed One said. The Venerable Ananda was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. Thank you. So what is this voidness that the Buddha talks about, that he abides in, as he says in the Sutta? Another word that can be applied for voidness is emptiness.

And in this case, it is when one directs the mind away from conditioned existence and understanding the phenomena of anatta and that all is not self. In such a mind, it inclines towards the unconditioned away, and then once the mind understands as phenomena arise and pass away that all is not self, including not only the conditioned existence but also the unconditioned, that is nibbana, that is how the mind experiences this supreme unsurpassed emptiness or voidness.

Generally, we'll talk about three ways of understanding emptiness. There is the emptiness of self, which is synonymous with anatta. And this is discussed in the Samyutta Nikaya 35.85, out of it, out from it, just to read it to you. And it's called Sunyata Loka, or Empty is the World. And Ananda approaches the Blessed One, the Buddha, and says to him, Venerable Sir, it is said, Empty is the World. Empty is the World.

In what way, Venerable Sir, is it said, Empty is the World? It is, Ananda, because it is empty of self and of what pertains or belongs to self, that it is said empty is the world. And then the Buddha goes on to talk about the anatta aspects of the sixth sense spaces, because the all, as it's sometimes called, or the world, or reality in conditioned existence as it is experienced, is experienced through the sixth sense spaces, first and foremost.

And so the Buddha goes through each one from the eye to the ear to the nose to the tongue to the body and the mind and takes a look at all of the objects of these sixth sense spaces and the phenomena that arise in the way of contact with each of these sixth sense spaces, the perception tied to the feeling, the consciousness that arises, and the formations that are created through these six sense spaces. So in other words, the five aggregates that arise and pass away dependent upon the experience of the sixth sense spaces is what creates this conditioned existence, this conditioned experience of existence in reality.

And when one experiences it in the moment, not intellectualizing it, not analyzing it, but really seeing it as it is, the mind will naturally incline away from this conditioned existence and incline towards nirvana, towards the unconditioned. the understanding of emptiness in regards to how it arises or what is present in each meditative attainment. So what we are talking about here now is the voidness or emptiness of whatever factors there are present or not present in each jhana as we traverse through the first four jhanas, infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness and neither perception nor non-perception. The Buddha uses an example of Migara's mother's palace where there is only the Sangha, there is only the assembly of monks, and so in that palace there is the emptiness of elephants, and cattle, and horses, and mares, and gold, and silver, and assembly of other people.

In the same way, when one enters the forest, it is void of any people and villages. Now, when we come to the example of the earth, some understand this to be a way of meditating: look at it and understand that the Buddha refers to the earth as earth, whether it's the external or internal earth element. But in this case, according to what it is said in the Sutta, the Buddha is talking about the shapeless earth, just earth as it is, from which is shaped the rivers and the ravines and the mountains and the valleys and so on and so forth. So taking the common denominator of earth, empty of these shapes and forms upon earth, using that simile, the Buddha enters into the discussion of the higher basis of perception.

That's not to say that one cannot experience emptiness in the first four jhanas. If you look at it from this context, of mind, in the case of the first jhana we have the emptiness of sensual pleasures, and there is the pleasure born from thinking and examining thought intending upon an object of meditation, and there is the mental happiness and the mental bliss that arises. In the case of the second jhana we have the emptiness of the thinking and examining thought, the thinking and imagining, which is then not present in the second jhana.

And there is only the bliss and the happiness, the piti and the sukha, that have arisen and stay. And then in the third jhana, we have the dissipation of piti, there is the sense of pleasant abiding. And so one factor of the second jhana is not present in the third jhana. Likewise, in the fourth jhana, both piti and sukha are no longer present, and there is only this pure mindfulness born from equanimity, a very steady presence of mind.

And thus the fourth jhana is void or empty of the preceding three jhanas. Likewise, as we've seen in this particular sutta, each of the preceding bases of perception are void or empty of the preceding bases of perception. So infinite space is void of the sense of form. So going back to the simile of the earth that the Buddha talks about, form and so that could be why he is also talking about or starting with the base of the perception of infinite space, and so there is no longer contact with the grosser form, with the body, and there is now contact within the mentality. So there is still contact arising in the way of perception of the base of infinite space, and then one transcends this and sees that the base of infinite consciousness is empty of the base of infinite space.

And then the base of nothingness is empty of the base of infinite consciousness. And then finally, neither perception nor non-perception is empty of the base of nothingness. Another way to look at it: when you visit the park. When you visit a forest in the daytime, you might hear all kinds of sounds, especially in the park with children playing and the cars passing by and so on and so forth.

But in the silence of deep night, in that silence, you can still hear something such as the crickets chirping or the owls hooting or something like that. Or when you are at home, there's a lot of activity and there's a lot of sounds during the daytime. But then when everyone is asleep and it's quiet at night, you might hear the hum of your laptop or the hum of your fridge and so on. While all these were present, what is not present is the sounds that were there during the daytime. This is this particular way of seeing emptiness.

When you look at the different attainments, the different levels of awakening, in the case of sotapanna, that mind of sotapanna is empty of the first three fetters. In the mind of sakadagami, it is empty of the first three, and that will arise until one enters into the path of the anagami, where it is empty even of the first three fetters as well as the fetters of craving and ill will. And finally, the supreme emptiness that the Buddha discusses here is the mind of the arahant, which is empty of all three taints: the taint of sensual craving, the taint of being, and the taint of ignorance. So in the mind of the arahant, even the links of dependent origination are empty, empty of the fetters that are bound to the formations through the process of the defilements. And so in that mind there is the understanding that this mind is empty of all that leads to rebirth, and the root that turns the mind towards mental suffering. There is another type of emptiness to look at, which is the emptiness concentration of mind or the emptiness collectedness of mind.

This is similar to what I was saying earlier, where the mind sees the not self aspect of conditioned reality, and once there is a natural inclination towards nibbana, towards seclusion. And so one sees the emptiness of each of the aggregates, form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, and the mind inclines away and goes towards the unconditioned. So if that's the case, why didn't the Buddha talk about emptiness concentration or emptiness collectedness of mind here? Rather, he mentions something known as the signless concentration of mind or the signless collectedness of mind.

Practically speaking, when you enter the base of neither perception or non-perception, you take as your object the quiet mind. After having radiated equanimity for some time, the mind will feel a little tense. too much effort in radiating equanimity and so at that point the mind stops radiating and what is present there is this quiet mind but even this quiet mind is an object that the mind is inclining towards that the mind is using for meditation the signless concentration of mind or the signless collectedness of mind is without any sign which means without any object.

So there is a point where one is observing the quiet mind to such an extent that at a certain point, the mind stops identifying with the quiet mind. The mind stops projecting onto it a sense of meditation and a meditator, clear that the mind stops looking at the quiet mind as an object and even lets that go.

And there is just this pure clarity of mind, this objectless collectedness, this objectless awareness that is so pristine that it is just pure looking. It is also the emptiness collectedness of mind, in the sense that when there is this just pure seeing without the sense of a self attached to the seeing, it is emptiness collectedness of mind. And finally, it is also the undirected collectedness of mind, because here there is no craving. There is no desire, there is no inclination to do anything but just purely seeing without an object, without even an objective.

And through these three gates of nirvana, one's mind drops into cessation, experiences the third noble truth, and upon emerging, makes contact with the nibbana element. And so with that contact with the nibbana element, that contact remains signless. It remains undirected. It remains empty. And thus the formations that arise are also pure, meaning they are unfettered by craving and unhindered by ignorance. And so the consciousness that arises is also pure, unaffected by craving or by ignorance or by conceit.

It is only when the relief arises from having made contact with the nibbana element that, depending upon the mind and its ability to continually let go and not grasp, that will determine whether the mind stays still defiled. In other words, in the case of a sotapanna, the mind will find a lot of relief and still identify with it and still have some craving for it.

In the case of a sakadagami, that relief will be less in degree, less in strength. In the case of the anagami, that relief will still be identified with, but no craving will arise from it. There will still be the sense of "I am experiencing this relief." And then in the case of the arahant, when one enters the path of the arahant, there is the relief, but because the contact that arises remains undefiled, undefiled because it remains undirected, it remains empty, and it remains signless, the relief that might arise is also seen in the same way. And because there is no craving attached to that relief, because there is no identification attached to this relief, and because there is no delusion there, there is no ignorance there, there is no suffering there, the taints related to sensual craving, related to being, and related to ignorance don't have anything to cling on to, and to of dependent origination, and they drop away.

This is the remainderless fading away of all the fetters and of all the defilements or projections. And thus one attains arahantship. And so when the Buddha talks about the supreme emptiness, unsurpassed, he is talking about that mind of the arahant, who understands in that moment the impermanence of that relief. It remains signless, that mind who understands the suffering aspect of that relief, because it is not worth holding on to since it is impermanent. Therefore that mind of the arahant is empty, empty of any sense of self or identification, and that mind understands that relief to be not-self. The suffering is undirected, and he understands that relief to be empty of any self. And so that is the mind of the arahant which experiences the emptiness deliverance of mind. This is how one should understand it: there is the signless related to impermanence, the understanding of impermanence; the undirected related to non-craving; and the empty deliverance of mind related to understanding the not-self aspect of any aspect of existence, including the unconditioned.

So when one actually emerges from cessation and experiences Nibbana, at that point, all the links of dependent origination up until the point of feeling remain signless, remain empty, undirected. And so it is determined by the relief that one experiences and how one takes that relief. This is why it is said that when one experiences the sensory experiences, it's important to apply correct mindfulness and understand if there is craving arising from it or any identification arising from it.

Because the more one understands this, the more one lets go, and in that continual process of letting go and non-grasping, one continually experiences Nibbana. So the more one does this, the easier it is to apply this in the practice, whether you are in equanimity, whether you are in loving kindness, whether you are in quiet mind, whatever it might be. One needs to continue to let go of the conceptual signs to these states of mind, related to these states of perception, until one enters upon the cessation of perception and feeling, because automatically such a mind will remain empty, remain signless, and remain undirected. And so it's up to the mind and its understanding to see that even that relief should not be held on to. Even that relief should be understood as not-self, as impermanent, and not worth holding on to.

Questions? In the signless concentration. Sorry Bharat, I didn't hear when you started. Again, in the sutta it refers to the disturbances of the sixth sense basis when it comes to the signless concentration. So can you elaborate on that and maybe give some examples of what is meant by disturbances of the sixth sense basis in that context? In short, it's really the experiences of the sixth sense basis. So even in the case of an arahant, there will still be disturbances, meaning there will still be activity going on in relation to the experience of the sixth sense basis. But there will not be any craving or identification that arises from the feeling of that sensory experience or from the perception of that sensory experience.

So when the Buddha talks about only these six sense bases, dependent upon and conditioned by life, he's referring to the materiality and the mentality within that materiality. So, essentially, it is mentality and materiality that he's referring to. And it's through the faculties within mentality and materiality, which is the body itself, the faculty of contact, the faculty of feeling, the faculty of perception, the faculty of intention, and the faculty of attention, that the processes of feeling, perception, contact, attention, and mindfulness occur.

So there will still be disturbances in relation to the arising and passing away of sensory experiences, but those are not clung to, those are not craved for, and those are not attached to with a sense of self or identified with. So this would be just before or after entering the cessation experience. So before, you would be in the quiet mind space, more or less. So there won't be much of the sensory inputs or experiences. It's just after emerging from the cessation experience that one is now open to the sensory field.

Is that a correct understanding? So in the case of the signless concentration of mind, it occurs when you let go of even the quiet mind that you take as your object. As I said, it's just a pure awareness, pure seeing, without any objective, without any sort of doer there, without any sense of self in that watching. And when you drop that condition of the quiet mind and allow that continuous watching without putting your awareness on anything, it's an awareness that does not abide in anything or rest on any kind of platform. It just continues on, and at a certain point, because there's no fuel for that awareness in the way of objects, in the way of signs, it is completely let go of and then drops into cessation of perception and feeling.

And then when you come out of cessation of perception and feeling, there is the empty contact, the signless contact, the undirected contact with the Nibbana element. And then the feeling that you experience in the way of relief is the mental contact that emerges, and then that relief, the feeling, is the sensory experience in the sixth sense, which is the mind. I would like to ask regarding the signless concentration: is this something that is the cessation? That means after neither perception nor non-perception, then the signless concentration occurs, after which the mind drops into cessation. And after that, during cessation, can I say that the mind does not exist?

And after cessation, then the signless concentration comes back when the mind, during cessation, the mind temporarily ceased, and then the mind emerges from cessation. I'm not sure whether that is correct. Okay, can I say during cessation the mind doesn't exist? You should not use the word exist or non-existence here, because the mind is still present. There's no feeling or perception there. The moment you use the words like exist or not exist, you're getting into the territory of personalizing the mind with the sense of self. It's more of an understanding, and seeing this way, that when the mind stops in terms of its activities of feeling and perception, so to the experience of conditioned reality, that's the way to look at it, rather than saying if it exists or not exists. Still present, the faculties, which if you go back in some suttas, talk about what is the difference between death or the dissolution of the body and the cessation of perception and feeling.

And so in the case of death, the faculties are impaired, are no longer functional. But here are the faculties, the sense faculties, the mind faculties are still present and they're bright, but they're not active. perception or feeling there that's the way it should be understood okay because uh based on my my own understanding is that during cessation the mind temper resists so uh that to me that to me personally seems like the the mind stops existing when it drops into a cessation because the different cessation the fire aggregates Can I say that because there's a cessation of perception and feeling, that means to me that the mind is no more.

We can't use that to say that there is cessation, there's a mind there in concentration. That's my interpretation. That's why I use the word does not exist. And when the mind emerges from cessation, then the five aggregates will come back into play. It seems a bit contradictory to say that the mind emerges from cessation, you see. So that's why I want to clarify this point, because the, or should I say, inside cessation, there is the cessation of perception and feeling, but the mind is still there. If I say that, would it be wrong? There's still a mind there.

There is still a mind there in relation to mentality and materiality, that are still there. They're not impaired. So we have to come to the understanding of what mind is from what you're seeing, because it's not that the mind doesn't exist. It's still present in the way of mental and physical faculties. It's still there, but there's no activity going on. There's no neural activity going on. There's no perception and feeling. In that case there's no consciousness there, so as long as that is not there, there is no of conditioned reality. So it ceases to that extent. It doesn't cease to the extent of non-existence, which would mean that it cannot exist any longer.

To me, that means when there's feeling, perception, consciousness, those are the things that we call the mind, using. So when there's a sensation of feeling, perception, and consciousness, yet in sensation the mind is still there, then how are we supposed to understand that? How am I supposed to understand that, because without consciousness, what is mine, without feeling, without perception? I'm referring to the faculties, which means the process. The faculties means the six sense bases, meaning the six physical senses: the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body, and the mind, are still present in cessation of perception and feeling. The difference is they are not active.

So they are still quite present in terms of their physicality, the activities of these sixth sense spaces. So if you want to say that the mind is basically based on these activities, to that extent you can say that the mind ceases to exist. Still a mind in terms of the physical aspect of the mind, the sixth sense organs, if you will.

So is the signless concentration a prerequisite for the mind to drop into cessation? No, no, it's not. Is it neither perception nor non-perception, and from there the mind drops into cessation directly, or does there have to be a signless concentration as a prerequisite before the mind drops into cessation? It's not a prerequisite that the signless concentration of mind needs to be there. What I'm saying is, whether you're aware of it or not, whether you experience it or not, there is that signless concentration of mind, that signless collectedness of mind.

When your mindfulness becomes sharper and when you destroy the first three fetters, you can become more aware of this in-between state of the neither perceptual or non-perception and the cessation of perception and feeling see what happens is eventually whether you are a Soda Pana or not even before you become a Soda Pana you still experience this signless collectedness of mind it's just that it's not experienced in the way of a conscious experience it's that the mind goes through it without it understanding what it's going through but when you look back into it when you really study it in terms of contemplating and understanding it while you're experiencing it, you will see that the mind has let go of the object of quiet mind.

And there is just this pure clarity that remains. But it's not a prerequisite. It's just a step that occurs whether you are aware of it or not. Does it mean that if the mind drops into cessation and emerges from cessation, that means that that person will, after that, surely become an ariya? Once that person undergoes cessation and emerges, can it still be a puthujjana? Or will it definitely be an ariya? Can you say that again, please? Because I didn't get the whole... Yeah, if the mind drops into cessation and emerges from cessation, does that person...

change lineage and become a noble one, or can it still remain a worldling? It depends if wisdom is present, which means that when the mind emerges from cessation and one sees or experiences the links with dependent origination and sees that this is an entirely impersonal process, through that realization, through that understanding, through that knowledge and vision, one drops the fetter of the personality view, so also drops the fetter of doubt, also drops the fetter of the belief in rites and rituals taking you to nirvana, because one has seen for oneself how this process works. So it's quite natural that when one emerges from cessation and has the experience of the links of dependent origination in this way, through seeing it and having that sense of relief, that there is a, as you said, lineage change, that there is the stream entry.

Those periods that people can enter cessation, if outside those periods people cannot enter cessation? It sounds like no one's cessation is attained, then that person will become an ariya. So in that case, does it mean that during those periods where the Buddha does not arise, no one can attain cessation? No, it's not that case. You need to understand that stream entry is not dependent upon the cessation experience.

Any of the four paths of the stages of enlightenment, whether it is stream entry or sakadagami or anagami or arahant, can be experienced or seen and understood without the cessation experience. The cessation experience is not necessary. What is necessary is the insight and the wisdom that arises from that insight into the nature of reality. Once that is there, then one can enter the stream, and that is not dependent upon the cessation experience.

Because I equate the cessation with something like Nibbana, Nibbana still with the body remaining. Sotapanna has a glimpse of Nibbana and has a taste of Nibbana and a taste of the unconditioned. So I interpret that as that they have at least entered cessation once. That is how they have that glimpse of Nibbana and the unconditioned element. So please tell me if that view is mistaken. I mean, based on what you told me, cessation is not a prerequisite to become a stream enterer.

So actually, when a sotapanna has a glimpse of Nibbana and a taste of the unconditioned and becomes a sotapanna, how should I interpret that? What exactly do they experience to go into the ariya stream? So when I say cessation, I'm referring to the cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness, truth of cessation of craving, cessation of suffering. There is the state called cessation of perception and feeling, but the sotapanna, or one who enters the stream, when one becomes a stream enterer, it can happen with the understanding of reality, understanding of the links of dependent origination, understanding of the three characteristics of reality, self, or the sense of a permanent self. So in the dropping, in the letting go, the destruction of craving, that is Nibbana, and that is not dependent upon the cessation of perception and feeling. It's just that one of the ways that one can become a sotapanna is through the process that arises after cessation of perception and feeling, where one sees the impersonal or conditioned existence is brought forth.

But if there is an understanding in seeing with wisdom, regardless of whether one has cessation of perception and feeling or not, one still experiences the third noble truth, which is the cessation of craving, for that point, to that point. So up until that point, there can still be craving arising in the case of a sotapanna, but there is that glimpse, as you said, of the third noble truth, the cessation of craving, but not with the cessation of perception and feeling. The cessation of perception and feeling is just a state. It's still a conditioned state, but Nibbana remains unconditioned. So the experience one has of deconditioning the mind, where the mind becomes unconditioned by letting go of craving, in that time one experiences Nibbana, having let go, and so enters the stream.

So can I equate cessation with Nibbana? When you're saying the Third Noble Truth of cessation, the cessation of craving, the destruction of craving, not the cessation... Before the Buddha obtained enlightenment, I think there were highly skilled yogis who could go into deep jhanas up to neither perception nor non-perception, but they did not go beyond that. But can it be said that if that happened, a person will enter cessation before the Buddha's enlightenment, but emerges from that, they may not be a noble one? Is that a possibility?

You're saying if cessation can occur outside of the Dhamma, meaning outside of the context of the Dhamma, that if there is an experience of cessation. In yoga, in yogic practice, there is nirvikalpa samadhi, which means essentially the same thing, which is the stopping of all processes, of all mental processes. But what is different is the understanding that arises after the cessation.

So the cessation is just another raft to the other shore. It should not be equated with Nibbana. It can still be used by people outside of Dhamma practice. Like I said, for people who know yoga, there are states of mind and states of understanding, as well as a state of, they could call it suspended animation, where the mind stops.

So that could be considered to be equivalent to the cessation of perception and feeling. But when one emerges from that, there is no context within the Dhamma. There is no understanding of the processes that arise from dependent origination. That is the difference in the case of the Dhamma, through which one lets go and sees the truth and experiences Nibbana. And this can happen without having to go through the cessation of perception and feeling. Having the glimpse of Nibbana, seeing the unconditioned, the Dhamma eye arose, that is being explained as clearly as it is being explained in terms of this whiteness step.

Because by reading the sutta, there's this formula that says that they listen to the sutta, the Dhamma eye arose, they got a glimpse of Nibbana, they plunged into the deathlessness, then they become sotapanna. But is it elaborated? Can we know what the steps are? What does it exactly mean? What do they exactly see? How does the mind plunge into the deathless?

Like in the case of this meditation, where we at least get a sense of it. I'm just reading something that somebody wrote here. It says, mentioned seven ways of how stream entering can happen, so that means there's, according to this particular message, other ways besides experiencing cessation for stream entry to happen according to the sutta. It would be good if we knew what the sutta number was, but we'll have to investigate and see. In terms of the sotapanna being the cessation of craving, Nibbana being the cessation of craving, I'd like to ask, how do we differentiate between desire and craving?

I mean desire in the sense of the desire that doesn't create any karma. Like when you're thirsty, you desire to drink. But you have a craving for a certain type of drink. Maybe you desire, you're thirsty, you need to drink water, but you prefer to drink some type of liquid. That may be a craving. In our daily life, how do we exactly tell the difference between desire as neutral and craving? Craving can also be understood. Is it possible? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, basically, let's say if I already have a cup of water in front of me, when I take one sip, the time it could be out of desire, then maybe I take another sip, it could be out of craving, but I can't tell the difference.

So I'd like to understand when it crosses the line from desire to craving, because craving, to be able to stop the craving, is very important to understand the difference between desire and craving. Craving can also be understood as discontentment. If you've had your fill of water, if you've had your fill of food in order to fulfil the biological needs of your body, then you have fulfilled the biological desire of the body.

But if you want more and are unsatisfied or discontent with that, and you crave more than your fill, then that is craving. That's one way of understanding it. It's essentially having discontentment in what is being experienced. So in the case of your sixth sense basis, if you look at your sensory experience, if you identify with it to the extent that there is this sense of wanting more of it or not wanting any of it, because you're either attaching to it or you're having aversion towards it, that is craving. Thank you very much.

So I'll just read some of the comments in the chat. Let's see what we have here. Yeah, I'll just start from here. There are a lot of good comments. I'll just go with them one by one, because they were written while we were having our conversation. So it might clarify some more things for you. One person says, mind is in standby, so to speak. So in regards to cessation and perception and feeling, standby in the sense that the faculties of mind exist, but there are no activities.

Our mind takes Nibbana as an object. That's interesting. So that is more about experiencing the third noble truth, where the mind inclines towards Nibbana. That's a little different from experiencing cessation, perception, and feeling. And so this is said: if there is perception of something that is not Nibbana, and language has its limitations in describing cessation and Nibbana. Cessation is the state that is devoid of all phenomena, and you can say it is a clean slate, like arriving at the source or origin or starting point of all potentials. Nibbana is a process where all craving is let go. It is not a state like cessation.

And so then the person that I was telling you talked about the Sutta, where it is mentioned that there are seven ways of stream entry that can occur. It says, Dhamma-I, you were talking about the eye of wisdom, the eye of Dhamma, is explained as understanding whatever arises is subject to passing away. This is the commonality of stream entry. Whenever you see in the suttas, they say that the person who enters the stream has this understanding that whatever arises is subject to passing away. And so now that sutta that we were talking about is Majjhima Nikaya 70. And finally, this person says, that is not only about stream entry, but all stages of Nibbana. I'm guessing that's referring to the understanding that whatever arises is subject to passing away.

Okay. Yeah. That sutta talks about seven kinds of persons that are to be found in the world. It's specifically about stream entry and all the ways people can be liberated by nirvana. Understood. Okay. So essentially there are seven different ways of attaining nirvana, not necessarily stream entry. Is that the way to understand it? It's talking about liberated in both ways. One liberated by wisdom, a body witness, one attained view, one liberated by faith, a Dhamma follower, and a faith follower. - Understood, okay.

Thank you. - Okay, Delson. - Yeah. - I'll probably go by these stages of attainment, yeah? - Okay. - First of all, is my voice okay? Noise? - Yes, all good, all good. Just to let you know, before we continue, this will probably be the last line of questioning because I'm in the middle of a retreat as well, so I need to get back in about 45 minutes. So we still have time, but just keep that in mind. Everyone okay? I just wanted to have some sort of understanding. Sure. Among all of us, go ahead. So we have got, let's say, a video or some sort of picture. Now we have different resolution of that picture. Somebody can see a picture in a very rudimentary way. That is considered some sort of, yeah, he saw that.

So Sotapanna could be equated to some sort of having a very vague understanding of Dhamma. So somebody doesn't need to go into all the details to know, okay, this is, I have attained Nibbana. Just somebody who can attain Sotapanna could be having that basic understanding of Dhamma: all the phenomena that is subject to arising is subject to cessation. That captures the essence of the Dhamma.

And hence, if somebody can understand this, could potentially attain the Sotapanna and may possibly not need to be meditating as deeply, right? Is that some sort of, yeah. Yes, you can see it in this way. That's an interesting analogy used, for example, video where it can be pixelated and you're starting to see clearly a little bit by a little bit. And then in the stage of stream entry, there is some understanding of the Dhamma, specifically this general understanding of impermanence, that whatever is subject to arising, whatever arises is subject to passing away, is subject to cessation. So that's really the foundational, fundamental understanding upon which then you have higher understandings or deeper understanding.

and these deeper layers of understanding kind of depixelate the picture until you have the clear vision of Nibbana. That's a good way of putting it, actually. Yeah, that's just an analogy from the practical point of view, yeah, which is probably understandable. Yes, very good. Yeah, no more questions. Good. Shall we share the merit? Yes, Ken, please go ahead. All right, everybody can unmute and share the merit together, if you like.

May suffering one be suffering free, and the fear struck fearless being. May the grieving shed all grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings, inhabiting space and earth, devas and that of a mighty power share this merit of power. May the Buddha. Thank you, Delson. Thank you, Kanma. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Delson. Thank you, everyone.