Is the World Eternal or....MN 63 - Sunday Talk with Delson Armstrong

So this is a Sutta I don't think I've done before, and I wonder if it has been done any time during Bhante's time. I don't recall it being done, no. This is an interesting one because it's really getting to the heart of what the Dhamma is, and people have all kinds of opinions. Is the Dhamma this, is the Dhamma that? How do we practice the Dhamma, what are we practicing the Dhamma for, and so on and so forth. So this is Majjhima Nikaya 63, the Cula Malunkya Sutta, the shorter discourse to Malunkyaputta. Thus have I heard: on one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Park.

Then, while the Venerable Malunkyaputta was alone in meditation, the following thought arose in his mind. These speculative views have been left undeclared by the Blessed One, set aside and rejected by him. Namely: the world is eternal, and the world is not eternal. The world is finite, and the world is infinite. One thing and the body another.

After death, a Tathagata exists. After death, a Tathagata does not exist. After death, a Tathagata both exists and does not exist. After death, a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist. The Blessed One does not declare these to me. He does not declare these to me. So I shall go to the Blessed One and ask him the meaning of this.

If he declares to me either the world is eternal or not eternal, and so on, then I will lead the holy life under him. If he does not declare these to me, then I will abandon the training and return to the low life. Believe it or not, we as teachers get students like this every so often. They put conditions towards you. Will I get this if I train under you? If I do a 10-day retreat with you, is this guaranteed?

They have all of these different conditions. Maybe not as philosophically adept as Malunkyaputta is seemingly so, but all kinds of things. And as soon as you do that, this is actually a lesson for all of us. How do we approach a teacher? How do we approach a guide? How do we approach somebody of higher knowledge, somebody who can provide us something that we're looking for?

Don't put any conditions on them. There's no need to do that. Just go with an open mind and see what they have to say. And you have every purview to say, I don't agree with that, or can you tell me more? Or can you tell me more about this? Of these things, I just said, look, I'm not the teacher for you. I'm not the person for you. Please find someone else. Because it's a waste of time. It's a waste of time and energy for us as teachers, and it's a waste of time and energy for students, for practitioners.

The idea here is there's no higher or lower. There's no hierarchy. But there is a certain level of understanding in terms of what you are getting into this practice for, and what you are looking for from the teacher. If you're going to think about these ways, then you're not having an open mind. You already have a certain kind of flow in your mind that this is how things should be.

Many times on retreat, you will hear me say, or you will hear David say, or you will hear others who are conducting retreats say, whatever you've done in the past prior to this retreat, if you're new to TWIM, take all of that, put it in a box, close it, set it aside, and come to this with an open mind. This is very important for everybody to realize. So when you come with questions, don't come to me or anybody else with questions of trying to confirm or validate your own belief systems, or to verify that you're right in this or that. I've had so many people. And I can tell when somebody is asking a question, the way they're asking the question, the way their mind is, that they're just looking for validation.

No, you should be genuine and sincere in the way you approach any person with regards to questions, especially in the spiritual life. All right, moving on. Malunkyaputta rose from meditation and went to the Blessed One. After paying homage to him, he sat down at one side and told him: Here, Venerable Sir, while I was alone in meditation, the following thought arose in my mind. These speculative thoughts have been left undeclared by the Blessed One.

If he does not declare these to me, then I will abandon the training and return to the low life. If the Blessed One knows the world is eternal, let the Blessed One declare to me the world is eternal. If the Blessed One knows the world is not eternal, let the Blessed One declare to me the world is not eternal. If the Blessed One does not know either the world is eternal or the world is not eternal, then it is straightforward for one who does not know and does not see to say, I do not know, I do not see, and so on and so forth. He says the same thing about the world is finite.

How then, Malung Kya Buddha, did I ever say to you, come Malung Kya Buddha, lead you to me. Does not exist. No, Venerable Sir. Did you ever tell me I will lead the holy life under the Blessed One and the Blessed One will declare to me these things? No, Venerable Sir. That being so misguided man. Now you know that the Buddha is annoyed when he says misguided man. Who are you and what are you abandoning?

But for what? This is all philosophy. And really, if you understood the Dhamma, you would know that the Dhamma is not philosophy. Philosophy is all about: is there a soul? Is there not a soul? Where does the soul reside? Is the universe eternal or not eternal? Is it finite or infinite? Right now, even in terms of science, as far as I'm aware of it, there are only theories about how the universe began, with regards to what they call the Big Bang Theory. There are only theories about what will happen at the end of the universe. It will be the Big Crunch or whatever it is, and it will all turn into soup.

I don't know what it is. But they have all these theories about how things will be, but no real, let's say, conclusive facts. It's all theories based on certain evidence that they see. But in the larger scheme, in the grander scheme of everything with your life, what will change if you knew that the world is eternal or the world is not eternal? What would change if you knew that the world is finite or not infinite? What would you do if you knew? What would change if you knew that the world is one of millions of multiverses, or that we are the only people, or the only beings, that exist on this planet? Therefore, we are the only ones out there in the universe.

How would it change things? There can be all this speculation: well, it would change the nature of religion. It would change the nature of who we are, placed in the universe. It would change the nature of all of these things. Frankly and personally, I doubt that. Humans will remain humans. Humans will continue to be the barbarians that they are, doing whatever it is that they're doing. Why? Because of their nature. Because of dependent origination. Because of the conditioning that is there.

It's very interesting to speculate. Are there aliens out there? Are there not aliens out there? What happens after you die? I think the emphasis on trying to find out about life after death is misplaced, and it arises from a fear of not truly living. If you truly live in every moment and you truly see the reality of every moment, then it doesn't matter what happens after you die, because in that moment, you are totally content. In that moment, you're not harming yourself. You're not harming others. In that moment, you have total mindfulness. You have total presence of mind. A Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death.

Both exists and doesn't exist after death. Neither exists nor does not exist after death. It's just the mind playing tricks on us. We are just trying to figure out, is there any kind of security after this life? Because this life sucks. In the grand scheme of things, life and existence sucks, because we have all kinds of despair. We have all kinds of suffering. We have all kinds of idiots out there in the world, in our family, amongst our friends.

But we also have good things. And that's why it's the human condition. They may be temporary. They may be impermanent. But there's also a mix of good things. So the whole point of the Dhamma is not to try to find a conclusive fact or conclusion towards these speculative views. This is why the Buddha didn't really talk about these things.

He gave that analogy. He talked about, look at all these trees over here, and look at these handful of leaves that I have here. Which is greater, the handful of leaves or the trees that you see behind me? The monks say the trees. In the same way, I may know of all the knowledge that is there amongst those trees in terms of everything related to the universe and so on.

But that is not helpful for the human condition. It's not going to change anything. If anything, the more knowledge we have, the more suffering we have. I mean, we are already living in such an interconnected world that we know what's going on. I'm here in Europe. I know what's going on in Africa. In the U.S. I know what's going on in Japan. I know what's going on in Australia. I don't know what's going on in Antarctica. That's because there's no news network that's functioning from Antarctica.

But that's the whole point. We have so much news. We're inundated with so much information, so much data, that our minds, our brains, literally were not designed to have to know everything, everywhere, all at once. What's happening here and now, there's so much peace in not knowing what the hell is going on halfway around the world. There are many times when I'm outside and somebody asks, did you hear about this? I didn't. I don't know what's going on. You hear about the economy? No, I don't know what's going on. Did you hear about this president or this leader or this war or this conflict? No. You can call me uninformed and that's fine. I really don't care, but at least I have peace in my mind. At least I am content in what's going on in my everyday world. Nothing changes for me in my everyday world.

And you can guilt trip me into thinking, well, if you don't know about these things, or if you do know about these things and you don't care about the war that's going on, you don't care about the famine that's happening, whatever is going on. Okay, be my guest. That's fine. There's nothing I can physically do about what's happening halfway around the world. If anything, the best I can do is the news can be a source for me to practice my compassion, to practice my equanimity, to practice my joy when I see joyful news, which is seldom ever celebrated on any news network, for that matter. Whether it's, and I've traveled, so it's not just US, it's not just Europe, it's India, it's Japan, everywhere.

People love to hear bad news because they've been conditioned that way. And that's what sells. So if there's something I can't do about something, if there's something I can't do about this particular problem, why should I worry about it? Then you might say, well, you're heartless. You're not thinking about those people. How do you know that? Maybe I am doing something in my own way. Maybe you are doing something in your own way. So whatever gives you peace to do something in your own way is enough.

We're not here to save the world. Nobody here is here to save the world. And anybody who comes to you and says, I'm here to save the world, run the hell away from them. Because they are dealing with their own psychosis. They're dealing with their own mental discombobulation. We're not here to try to solve the world's problems. We were born into the world's problems.

And we will die with the world having other problems. So we're not here to make the world a perfect place. We're just here to do the best we can with the lifespan that we have, to bring the most amount of happiness that we can in our lives. But that there is the crux. What does that mean? What does that happiness actually mean?

And he would say, I will not let the surgeon pull out this arrow until I know the name and clan of the man who wounded me, until I know whether the man who wounded me was tall or short or middle height. Until I know whether the man who wounded me was dark or brown or golden skin. Until I know whether the man who wounded me lives in such a village or town or city. Until I know whether the bow that wounded me was a longbow or a crossbow.

Until I know whether the bowstring that wounded me was fibre or reed or sinew or hemp or bark. Until I know whether the shaft that wounded me was wild or cultivated. Excuse me, I'm having a cough. Until I know with what kind of feathers the shaft that wounded me was fitted. Whether those were of a vulture or a heron or a hawk.

Or a peacock or a stork. Until I know with what kind of sinew the shaft that wounded me was bound, whether that of an ox or a buffalo or a deer or a monkey. Until I know what kind of arrowhead it was that wounded me, whether spiked or razor-tipped or curved or barbed or calf-toothed or lancet-shaped. All this would still not be known to that man, and meanwhile, he would die. You see how absurd that is. Here there's somebody who's hurt, and they're going to find out who was it that hurt me, what was he like or what was she like, what did they look like, what was the nature of the arrow, and so on. It's absurd. And so this is why the Buddha says so too: If anyone should say thus, I will not lead the Holy Life under the Blessed One until the Blessed One declares to me these points that would still remain undeclared by the Tathagata.

And meanwhile, that person would die. Malunkyaputta, if there is the view the world is eternal, the Holy Life cannot be lived. So important to understand. I'm going to read that again. The world is eternal. The Holy Life cannot be lived. And if there is the view the world is not eternal, the Holy Life cannot be lived. Whether there is the view the world is eternal or the view the world is not eternal, there is birth, there is aging, there is death, there is sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair.

The destruction of which I prescribe here and now. So what the Buddha is saying here is, trying to find the view, if I have this view, or if I try to make up a theory, I try to conceptualize that this is how the world is or this is how existence is, the Holy Life cannot be lived. What that means is I'm not actually practicing the Dhamma. Once I go into the territory of speculating about things, then I'm going into the territory of what the Buddha would say. Somebody would question, was I, will I be, am I, and so on and so forth. These different speculative views are not in the Dhamma. The Dhamma doesn't care about any of that.

What does the Dhamma care about? So the Buddha is saying, let go of those views and come to what is reality, what is facing you right here, right now. In this moment, you are aging. In this moment, your cells are decaying. In this moment, there is birth and death of countless beings, not only on this planet, let's say.

In this moment, there are people weeping. There's destruction, there's death, there's sorrow, lamentation, grief, there's anxiety, there's all kinds of things related with the mind and the heart, which I say are one thing, the heart-mind. But there's also a way out of it. And this is why the Dhamma is not philosophy. It is practice. Practice. We continue to practice. And what do we practice? The Eightfold Path. Because the Eightfold Path is the way leading to the destruction of suffering.

The Holy Life cannot be lived, whether there is any of these views. The world is finite or infinite. There is a soul, or the soul is the same as the body, it's one thing and the body is another. You know the tetrads. Views. Whether those views are there or not, whether we want to speculate on them or not, there is this fact.

There is birth, there is aging, there is death, there are sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair. Destruction of which I prescribe here and now. It is possible to be able to experience the end of suffering here and now. And that happens in every moment, every time that we have mindfulness, every time we have presence of mind right here, right now. In that moment the mind is free of any of the conditions that can lead to suffering, because when you are fully present, whether you're using the body, whether you're using feelings, whether you're using mind or mind objects or phenomena as your anchor, any of these four foundations of mindfulness, to come back to the present moment, to remember to stay in the present moment, then you have security there.

You have the gatekeeper. You have the security postman who can see when craving may arise and let go of it. Suffering, when you have mindfulness. Therefore, Malunkyaputta, remember what I have left undeclared as undeclared, and remember what I have declared as declared. And what have I left undeclared? The world is eternal. The world is not eternal. The world is finite. The world is infinite.

It does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have left it undeclared, plain and simple. Makes a lot of sense to me. And what have I declared? This is suffering, I have declared. This is the origin of suffering, I have declared. This is the cessation of suffering, I have declared. This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering, I have declared. So what have I declared? The Four Noble Truths. And why have I declared that? Because it is beneficial. It belongs to the fundamentals of the spiritual life.

It leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared it so. I would urge all of us to do this in the morning. When we get up in the morning, we take the precepts. On retreat, we take the precepts, we take the refuges, and we do the recollections: I am subject to illness, and so on and so forth, and I am an inheritor of my karma. Don't do anything else but just recognize and remember the Four Noble Truths. If you just do that, not even as a practice but just as a process: there will be suffering, and that suffering will arise because the mind has caused it through craving, through clinging, through identifying, through taking things personally. But there is a way out of suffering, and that is by following the Eightfold Path.

And so we make a determination, to the best of our ability, just for today, that we will acknowledge these Four Noble Truths. We will not set ourselves up for suffering, but we will condition our mind in such a way that when suffering arises, we will see: ah, what is the origin of this? Am I taking something personally here? Am I clinging to something here? Am I identifying with something here? Am I getting caught up in the vortex of habitual patterns, habitual tendencies, that creates some kind of sense of self that causes me to act in this way?

And when I can see that and I relax, in that moment I experience cessation of suffering. In that moment, I experience the sky-like mind that is clear and unclouded, free of any barriers. That is mundane Nibbana. And the only reason that happens is because I have made a determination to the best of my ability to follow the Eightfold Path in whatever capacity that I can. Remember that, the Four Noble Truths.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, in the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, I think one of the phenomena that is discussed as the fourth anchor, the fourth foundation of mindfulness, is Dhamma. It's called Dhamma Upasana. Upasana means to practice. That's where the word Upasaka comes from. Dhamma. The lay followers are known as Upasakas, but everybody is an Upasaka in the general sense of the term. They are practicing the Dhamma. And the practice here is a practice of Dhamma Upasana. And specifically, which Dhamma, which phenomena? The Four Noble Truths.

So if I make a determination to see that to the best of my abilities, it sets me up for letting go easier. It sets me up for recognizing easier. It sets me up for experiencing Nirodha here and now easier. Let's see here: satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. Okay. Any questions? David. Thank you, Delson, Sadhu, Sadhu, for that brilliant exposition of that sutta and your Dhamma with us this morning. When I think of what the Buddha is saying here to Malankyaputta, he distills the Dhamma, and that's really what he did. Nothing but what you need to be free in every moment, and hence for the rest of your life. But I think of the challenge of being a lay person in the world, Anupasika, practicing in the world, an engaged Dhamma, an engaged Buddhism, where we're trying to act with compassion, create a state whereby the Dhamma can flourish.

And so it's not just the beautifully pure, distilled Dhamma that the Buddha points to, where ultimately if you follow the bouncing ball, it leads to full renunciation, becoming a bhikkhu, and not creating the circumstances where attachments and clinging can arise in your life, trying to eliminate everything. And so as a lay person in the world, where we haven't, or at least personally, I haven't developed that level of renunciation, right? There's still the clinging to the politics of the world, like you said, or, the world, we'll just say.

Translate that to an engaged Dhamma. We're dealing with people, with the jerks, with yada yada. Yeah. The way I would say engaged Dhamma is really the application of the Four Noble Truths, namely the application of the Eightfold Path. So, the ability to have right intention, right view, obviously right intention, right speech, and even if we are debating someone, even if we're to correct someone, even if you're trying to provide some of our own opinions about things, we can do it with right speech. Likewise with right action and right livelihood, and so on. But I would like to remind everyone that politics is also a thicket of views. It is a thicket of views, and politics is, as the Buddha would say, the talk of kings, and of course the bhikkhus are prohibited. So can we engage in a healthy debate where it doesn't cause so much agitation in the mind?

And that's where probably the practice is. Not sympathy, not someone I look down upon because I'm right and they're wrong, but because this person at the core essence is a being just like I am. And therefore, they deserve compassion as well. So if we start from that foundation, from that standpoint, then we can, obviously, give our viewpoints. We can provide our ideas about things. We can reprimand if we need to. We can correct if we need to, but without being harmful to ourselves or harmful to another being.

Well, I guess, like as you say, when we're having that conversation, it's just having a non-clinging to our view. Recognizing it's just a view, and it could be right, and it could be wrong. Right, right, exactly. But the challenge I see somewhat is, I think, to paraphrase Socrates, because this past week was the anniversary of Aristotle's passing, so he was kind of in my thoughts. And him saying something to the effect of: those who aren't willing to engage in politics better be prepared to be ruled by idiots.

Right. You know, and so as lay people, to me, I see us almost as protectors of the circumstances for the Dhamma to flourish, because we're the ones stepping into the arena, as opposed to going out to the forest. Right. Yeah. And that's fair. And I would say, idiocy is on a spectrum. To what extent can we accept?

The level of idiocy that we have in our leadership, and everybody has their own idea of what an idiot is. That's the other issue there. So of course there's a consensus on good governance, there's a consensus on making sure that people are not oppressed, that people are taken care of, and the whole idea of what democracy is, and so on. But if we can do our part, and if we're able to do it, I mean, we want to go out and be activists, for example, or we want to go out and do something about it, we surely can, and we surely should. But it depends on us to see whether it has any real bearing on our own lives. And what might we be sacrificing in doing that? And why do I say that? Because it does require sacrifice. You think about all the freedom fighters, all the people around the world. You think about India, the fight for freedom there that lasted for 300 years.

So many people sacrificed so many things, including their own lives, for what they call the greater good. Of course, that's a much larger extreme. But when it comes to just smaller, day-to-day stuff, we can make a difference in some way. But to the level that we are able to, practically speaking, we have to be able to see what makes sense for us. So I guess really, if I take this to heart, it's just knowing in that moment, have I lost my peace in whatever I'm engaged in? Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm never sacrificing that. Absolutely. I mean, and this is sort of my quote unquote personal philosophy. I remember one time my dad asked me, what do you want to do with your life?

You know, the age-old question that the father will ask his son or his children: what do you want to do with your life? Have you thought about making money? Have you thought about having your own family? Have you thought about all of these things? Have you thought about getting a job? And I said to him that I don't really care about money. I don't really care about these things. If I have peace of mind, that's all I care about. So I base my decisions on whether this gives me peace of mind or not.

And that actually made him realize, like, okay, I don't have to say anything else to this guy. He knows what he's talking about, he knows what he wants to do. And after that we never had a conversation about what I have to do with the future, and he realized my kid's a yogi, he's not a businessman. Excellent. Thank you. Somebody else had their hand raised earlier, I think Patty. Yeah, yeah, I did. I was trying to come. Consolidate this into the whole sutta. The whole sutta is about what the Buddha said in the last few verses, which is: I teach suffering and the end of suffering. And all of these other pages and verses are not beneficial.

Yeah. Really. End of story. Is it kind? Is it beneficial? Is it necessary? And if you don't open your mouth until you answer all those questions, you end up not talking so much. And so I find it really timely that this came. I have not read this sutta before. I knew the suffering and the Four Noble Truths and all that stuff, but not this particular sutta. So thanks for wrapping it all up and putting it together. Very insightful, and especially consolidating, because we get lost in the weeds. Even in the suttas, we get lost in the weeds.

I remember one time, I think I was listening to, I think it was Ajahn Jeff, Tanisaro, saying, you know, somebody said, well, why didn't the Buddha answer those questions? And because he just wouldn't even open, he wouldn't even talk about them. He wouldn't even say, I'm not going to answer it. He just, there's nothing to say, because the world wouldn't understand. Right, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Thank you. Anybody else? Are there any questions in the chat? Nope, not really. David, sorry if I, and let me know if I'm taking up too much time. But Delson, when I have a chance to chat with you, it's like the highlight of my to sit with our Dhamma group here and talk about things that matter.

Can I ask a question about a different sutta that I've been contemplating this week? MN 119, so Kayagata, the mindfulness of body sutta, right? When the Buddha, and that's in that sutta, when the Buddha describes the practice of jhana, this is the sutta where he talks about making soap. And one thing I've been contemplating with that is the difference in that approach, as to what I perceive to be the difference in the way we practice TWIM. So in the, if, and I'll try and explain my understanding, in the TWIM practice, as we're progressing through the first four jhanas, the instruction is to stay with the feeling of metta, to not occupy your mind so much with the sukha, the piti, notice they're there, but carry on, stay with the metta.

Whereas the instruction in this sutta, the Buddha is very clear, you know, the body in the sukha, in the piti, and then letting go as you go along. What's your take on the difference in those two different kinds of instructions on how to practice jhana? Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah, I recall, I didn't know it was an MN 119. I haven't read that, but I know about this. No, 119, sorry. 119, right? Yeah. I haven't read it, but I know about these particular, you know, like the bathman who soaks up the soap and all of these things. And it's a great analogy and it actually helps us kind of understand the feeling of piti and letting that soak up in our body and so on.

And I think the idea here, from my understanding, is that it is good to definitely soak up in piti and in the sukha and in the equanimity and so on. That process. So for example, maybe this would be better for somebody who already has a good understanding of the jhanas, to go and really look at the joy, really look at the sukha, really look at, you know, the different factors that are there in each of the jhanas, because, you know, there's other suttas where the Buddha will talk about the insight into the nature of these jhanas as well, and maybe that's for somebody who's more advanced, realizing, hey, don't get caught up in it, know it as an. And I think this is why in the TWIM structure, they do MN 111 so often, because it talks about how Sariputta sees the arising and passing away of these states.

He was dissociated. He was unaffected. He was independent of these states. He was just watching as these states arose and passed away. To really explore each of the factors, to really get a good understanding. But make sure that you don't get caught up in it. Make sure you don't get stuck in it, in that sense. I'm glad you mentioned 111, because that's exactly the sutta I was juxtaposing it with in my mind as I was thinking about this, because as the one by one you're noticing, but just whatever, carry on. Whereas, and exactly, again, you've kind of touched on my thoughts on it, in that it's more for once you're proficient in the practice, to be, and you're practicing maybe going to different jhanas, jhana jumping as we speak, so that you can become really familiar with the terrain of each one.

You know, what is that sukha really like? And then really saturating in it. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate your insight. Louisa. Hi. I guess I'm going back to the earlier sort of activism aspect of things, or non-activism. I'm struggling with it. I don't even know how to phrase it. I was trying to think. But you do hear what goes on in the world, even if you limit your intake. And I have a lot of friends and relatives and neighbors who are very upset. And as you say, there's not that much that I personally can do, you know, and I try and do things that I feel upset about and where I can.

But on a daily basis, you know, you're still sitting there. I understand. Well, yes, it's hard to say. On a daily basis, you're still sitting there, maybe upset. And I meditate and I'm working on all of that. But it's just so prevalent these days. And I guess what it is, is how do I help others around me, not just me, but you know, there's so many people around me who are so upset, that there's so many things seeming to go completely wrong. I mean, I think of myself as well. I do meditate, I do try and send out positive, you know, warm feelings into the world and the dharma, etc., etc. And I guess it's all I can do, but I guess could you just speak a little more to that? It just, it worries me about others, it worries me.

Yeah. Well, it's a good thing it worries you. It means that you have a heart, right? You have some sensitivity. And it's breaking, you know, it's like several. I understand. And it is definitely heartbreaking. But I think the best we can, the basic best thing we can do is hold space for that person. If they are struggling with what's going on in the news, sometimes they just need to voice it and talk about it, not necessarily have you, you know, counter with anything.

Or validated or anything. They just need to be heard, and you just look for, okay, do I need to say something here? Use your intuition in that moment. Maybe if I just say this to this person, it will help kind of redirect their attention towards something else. You know, you're not trying to make them ignore the news. You're not trying to make them distracted from it, although it might seem like that, but you're just like, okay, I'm just listening to what you have to say. You need to take your stuff out. You need a vent. You need to, you know, complain. You need to do whatever it is you need to do. I'm here in my compassion and in my equanimity.

That's another practice for me, to listen with equanimity, listen with compassion. And then if they're looking for something, in that moment, if you sense that, see if you can redirect the conversation. See if you can say, oh yeah, but you know, have you heard about this as well? Maybe, you know, I heard about so-and-so, you know, related to this, related to that. And that way the conversation starts to steer away. And the less attention we give on the things that make us suffer, the less we suffer.

I guess I just realized as you were saying that this is very, you know, the advice I, you know, I kind of know, and thank you for confirming, but I guess what came to me when you said that, listening with equanimity, is like, wow, then my heart has to break even more while I'm listening, you know, and it's painful. And I think what happens is I try, and I end up, you know, sort of pushing it away, because I don't want to hear that, because it makes me feel so bad, you know. And yet the practice is to try and listen. But that's very hard, because then I feel so badly.

And as you say, it's the practice. You see this as examples in the sutta where, you know, you have critics of the Buddha talking to other monks about, like, hey, this is what we've heard about the Dhamma and so on, and it says the monks neither rejected nor approved of what they said. They just listened to what they had to say and then went forward. Yeah, okay. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? Okay, let's share some merit. Let me get to the right. Here we are.

May suffering ones be suffering free, and the fear struck fearless be. May the grieving shed all grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have this acquired, for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power, share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu.