Lightly edited transcript Filler words and caption errors removed by machine; the meaning is unchanged.
In this closing question-and-answer session from day nine of an online ten-day retreat, Delson Armstrong answers questions on whether lay people can become arahants without joining the monastic order, why the Dakkhina Vibhanga Sutta praises gifts to the Sangha, how craving relates to subtle formations seen after jhana, and how projections distort perception. He also explains that intention matters most in giving and that missing the review step is not serious. He closes with plans for future retreats, including possible physical retreats in 2021.
Key points
- Delson reads the fetter of householdership as attachment to the conditions and requisites of lay life, so a lay person who becomes an arahant has no interest in that life and need not become a monk, though the sutta accounts he cites describe such people either dying soon after or joining the Sangha.
- On the Dakkhina Vibhanga Sutta's claim that gifts to the Sangha are more beneficial than gifts to the Buddha, he says he does not know and offers only a guess: the Sangha continues after the Buddha's passing and spreads the Dhamma more widely.
- Intention matters more than the method of giving; handing a gift with two hands is a sign of devotion and genuine generosity, which he says matters more than whether the gift is sent by bank transfer.
- After coming out of jhana, the practitioner can look back at very subtle formations that were not clearly perceived inside the absorption; craving arises only when attention is given to those formations and one clings to them or pushes them away, not from their arising alone.
- Projections filter perception through the six sense bases and distort the reading of a person or situation; practicing mindfulness with the three characteristics reduces taking things personally and gradually leads toward undistorted perception rooted in right view.
- Forgetting to do the post-jhana review is not a serious problem; the review is mainly practice in developing the mind's ability to look deeper into formations, which the mind does naturally after cessation.
Questions in this session
- In MN 71 lay people are said to make an end of suffering without giving up the fetter of householdership. Does this mean a lay person must become a monk to become an arahant, and why have you not seen examples of arahants who are lay people? 0:01
- In the Dakkhina Vibhanga Sutta the Buddha says a gift to the Sangha is more beneficial than a gift to the Buddha. Why does he say this? 6:08
- Is it true that gifts should be given with one's own hands, and is a bank transfer less beneficial than handing something to a person in front of you? 7:47
- After coming out of jhana, one looks back at the thoughts that arose. Were those thoughts formations, and did they involve clinging or craving? 9:20
- How bad is it if you forget to do the review after jhana, even with reminders such as post-it notes? 12:55
- If projections and ignorance are present, does a person see the world around them differently, and does everything fit together more smoothly when there are no projections? 14:05
- Do you give individual retreats if one person wants to retreat on their own? 18:04
Suttas in this talk
Each opens the sutta on SuttaCentral.
Themes
Awakening · The jhanas · Practice in daily life · Ethics and virtue
Where this talk sits on the path
This talk belongs to a thread that runs along the whole path. It follows the thread of Daily life / ethics.
Transcript
Lay people and arahatship
Okay, let's begin. Does anybody have questions? Yes, Delson, I would happen to have a question, if possible, regarding the suttas. There are many examples of people attaining different levels of awakening, and in some suttas also. Read about, for instance, in Majjhima Nikaya 71, there's a passage wherein it is said: "Master Gotama, are there any lay people who, without giving up the fetter of lay life, make an end of suffering when the body breaks up?" "No, Vaccha." So I was wondering, as I haven't seen any examples of the arahants, if one would have to become a monk at some point or [lay person?] some guy in some way. Yeah, explain all this. Thank you. Yeah.
The original Pali for that fetter of lay life says the fetter of householdership. There are instances in the suttas in the Pali canon in which it is said that there were lay people who had final knowledge, who had full deliverance of mind, which means they became arahants. Two situations occurred. One, they either passed away right away, because they attained arahatship upon or well before the dissolution of the body. Or two, they decided to join the monastic order, they decide to join and become a bhikkhu. And because of that there are interpretations from that, that it can only be one of these two, which is that once a lay person becomes an arahant
They either die or they have to join the sangha. Having said that, I will say that when you look at the meaning of fetter of lay life, or fetter of householdership, it's related more to the attachments to the conditions and the requisites of lay life, which is to say dealing with having a house, dealing with having, in ancient times, cattle, dealing with money, gold and silver, this and that and so on and so forth. So in the case of an arahant, once a lay person does become an arahant, they generally have no interest in making money. Obviously they have no interest in living the life of a lay person. So in that case they could just become a wanderer. They don't need to necessarily live the life of a householder or a full-fledged monastic, although if they have the inclination to join the sangha they very well might do so, but
It's more about the attachments to the lay life that they completely let go of, and because of that there's no interest in, like I said, making money, there's no interest in owning things, there's no interest in having any relationships with the lay life or anything in that regard. So such a being could, let's say, not have joined the monastic order but still be a wanderer, still depend upon the generosity of other people, so to speak. You can be a solitary wanderer living in the forest, and that's totally fine, as long as you live on alms, or rather live on means through which people provide you food and shelter and so on. Because once you have destroyed all the fetters, there's no interest in staying in the same conditions of the lay life. The lay life is, as the Buddha says, crowded and dusty, right, and there's no more interaction with that kind of frame of mind.
On a deeper level, if you look at it, there's Mahakachana who talks about the mind or the consciousness that has no abode, or having the kind of mindset where there is no sense of home and you are homeless in that regard. And what that means is that the consciousness doesn't make itself home in one or any of the senses, the sixth sense spaces. Again, meaning such a being is non-attached. Such a being has let go of all attachments. And such a consciousness doesn't remain established in any of the sixth sense spaces, taking it personal and thereby creating craving. It would be impossible for the arahant to do that. So that could be a deeper meaning to understand from this.
Giving to the Sangha
Thank you for clarifying in such a way, thank you. In Dakkhina Vibhanga Sutta, the Buddha says donation to the Sangha is more beneficial than donation to even the Buddha. Why does he say that? That's a very good question, and I would say I don't know. I could only guess. It's probably because the Sangha continues on beyond the Buddha's physical life, and so the Sangha continues on teaching the Dhamma well after the Buddha is gone, well after the Buddha is extinguished. So unless he's talking about even while he's alive, but even there you could only speculate, and that's what I'm doing now. The Sangha is much more far spread out than the Buddha is, in terms of being able to provide wisdom. They're traveling all around and providing people the wisdom of the Dhamma, and so the more you're able to give to the Sangha, the larger the Sangha would grow, and the larger you would be to contribute to the progression of the Dhamma and the spreading of the Dhamma. Could I ask? I'm sorry.
Could I ask a practical question? Is it true that you should be giving with your own hands? Now we just transfer money from one bank account to another, but is it true that that is less beneficial than handing something with your own hands to a person in front of you? I think it all starts with the intention, more than anything else, especially in today's modern world. The idea of sending it with your own hands, with your two hands, is a sign of devotion, a sign of veneration, a sign of genuine intention to be generous to that person. So it all begins with the intention first and foremost. Okay, so, interesting remark. It says here Suparaka Bahia's place is now called Nala Supara and has a pakoda. It is on the western line of Bombay local train. Interestingly enough, when I was a little child I actually lived in Nala Supara. Just a little interesting aside. I know nothing of it anymore, but I remember being there. Yeah, all right, no problem, take
Jhana and looking back
care. Listen, I want to take the opportunity to ask one question. Yes. In the jhana, after coming out from a jhana, one can recollect what thoughts might have come, right? Yes. Is it that during the jhana the thoughts which came were actually distractions, or the formations without healing, without craving? So my question is: are the formations, those are definitely formations, right, because they are thoughts, are those thoughts having some clinging or no clinging? So let me make sure I get this correctly. So you're saying that we have the practice of, after coming out of the jhana, to look back and see what was arising, right? Yeah. The main reason for that is because what happens is you're in such a deep level of mind that there are very, very subtle formations that are arising, and because you're in neither perception or non-perception, you don't have the full awareness or the full perception of what is necessarily arising. So that's why, when you come out of neither perception or non-perception and you have
full awareness, you have the ability to have the retrospective looking back with that kind of perception. You can now detect, okay, this is what arose, this is what arose. And as it arises in your retrospective mind, you let go of it. So can I say that there was no craving during that period? Yeah, there would have been no craving. Regardless, the craving will only arise when you start to pay attention to those formations and start to attach your attention to them. But if, for example, even on the coarser level, if there are hindrances arising but there's no interaction with them, there's non-involvement with them, and your attention stays
with the object, which might be a coarser object like loving kindness or compassion, because there's no attention given to the thoughts, they will go away on their own, because they don't have fuel, they don't have nutriment through the attention. So there's no craving going on there. But as soon as you put your attention there, which is you're trying to either start to attract towards them and start to create thoughts around them and thought processes, or you're starting to try to push them away and so you're having aversion, that's where the craving is. Your reaction to the thoughts, your reaction to the formations, is what will create the craving. But if there's no attention being there, craving will not arise. It's the improper attention or the unwise attention that gives rise to craving. Thanks, thanks for clarifying. And I want to say thanks for everyone. I really enjoyed this course even though it's virtual. It was pretty good course for me. Okay, and thanks to Delson as well, of course.
Absolutely. How bad is it if you forget to review? Because I put post-its and all kinds of reminders to review, but I keep forgetting. Yeah, is it really bad? It's not bad. It's not bad, really. There's a secondary reason for why you would be doing that sort of review process, because the mind naturally does that when you come out of cessation as well. So you're just practicing the ability to look deeper into the formations when they arise after cessation. So it's exercising that ability of mind, but if you don't do it or you forget to do it, it's not going to deter you in any way. It's a matter of just building that muscle to do so. Okay, yeah. I have a question regarding, if I understand right, when projections are
Projections and seeing clearly
cases are casing together with ignorance. Would you think such a person would also see the world around himself differently? Let's say more clearly, in a matter of that, the things going on around you fit more in, let's say, very simplistically. For example, also living in nature, if you have a good contact like this, very clear, with no projections, no ignorance, then you can feel the right action. Let's say that you need to survive to get the nutrition because and so on. And also among people, the same, some that you feel what's really clear.
Situation or not clear situation, let's say the reality, yeah, as it is, so everything fits better, more smooth, let's say. Yeah, yeah. The way I see it is, when you're first of all not having projections in the conventional sense of the word, meaning you're not projecting onto a person your image of them, whether it's good or bad, you're then able to be as clear as possible and seeing the reality of the person or of the situation. But the moment the mind is filtered with these fetters or with these defilements or projections, you're no longer experiencing reality. First of all, everything that you're seeing is through the sixth sense basis, everything you're understanding is through the sixth sense basis. So if there's projections through the sixth sense basis, that is going to distort your perception of the reality, it's going to distort what is the truth of the person or of the individual who is interacting with you.
So for that reason, if you are able to be in a mind where you don't. So as I was saying about the projections, if you have a mind that is unfiltered, that is not distorted by the projections, you will have a better sense of what the person requires in your interactions with them. And you will be able to understand the situation better. And that really starts again with mindfulness. The more you practice right mindfulness, understanding that whatever is arising and passing away through the lens of the three characteristics, you don't take things personal first and foremost. So that's on a gross level, that's on a coarser level. But as you start to do this, you're starting to then reformat the formations, if you will, you're starting to recondition it.
And then ultimately, when the projections are destroyed, when the defilements are destroyed, you understand reality in a way that is undistorted. And your perceptions are always rooted in right view. So these Zoom online retreats will continue throughout the year. The plan is, well, we have one planned for this month, and we might do another one in December. It really depends on everyone's schedule, including mine and Kun's. But the plan is, if things start to work out in the spring of next year, in spring of 2021, we can start doing physical retreats, whether it's in Malaysia, Indonesia, Europe, Canada, or India. So until then, if you don't hear anything back, we'll probably try to do a retreat once a month, if possible, at the very least. Okay, do you give individual retreats? If one individual wants to retreat on its own, do retreat on its own? It you can get a line, you mean like a one-on-one thing? Yeah, I hadn't considered that, but if there is interest and if people are interested, then they can let Suttavada know and we can try to create something around that.
Closing thanks and sharing merit
Okay, thank you, because uh, Duck Craft and David are doing that, I think. Oh, I see. Okay. I just saw this. Let's enter and come out of jhana when there is disruption in audio. Take it as it is, testing of our practice. That's good. So, on behalf of all students, we thank you very much, Nelson. We are very, very grateful to you for your guidance. It was very nice and very deep, and we learned a lot. Thank you. Absolutely. I'm very glad to have met all of you and I'm glad to be able to do this. I'm glad to help you. And I'm, I probably told everyone, but if not, everyone has it: you can also email me. I'll send the email address here.
And if you have any questions, you can send questions there, and then as I'm able to answer questions, I will respond to you guys. But thank you all for attending this. I'm very glad to have met you all. Can I say something? Thank you very much for your guidance. Been teaching this wonderful Buddhist discourse. It's as clear as possible for me. You know, I've been very grateful for that. And with that, I created Delson's podcast as well, so that people who don't have time to watch the YouTube can download it and listen. So please subscribe so that I can get a lot more and put it on Google and stuff like that too. Let's try to spread this wonderful teaching the best as possible.
Wonderful. Thank you so much. I have not been very verbal with retreat. He emerges out of the shadows there. It is. But three huge sadhu, sadhus, sadhus to you, and Kun, who I know has also put so much effort in this wonderful retreat, an amazing sadhu, sadhu, sadhu, really from all of, at least, my being. And see you sometime later. Absolutely. Yeah, of course we cannot forget Kun. Kun is the one who really organized all of this. Of course there were a few glitches here and there, but that's to be expected. This is a very first online retreat, but you know, and this is a matter of public record now, but I always try to, now from now on in the last couple of weeks, to tell Kun to try to focus on your own practice as well, because he's been doing so much for the foundation, connecting with people, doing, you know, different kinds of things with the website, trying to create translations, organizing the talks, organizing the different retreats.
And so on and so forth. So, you know, I think we should all, I will say it on your behalf, all of you as well, let Kun remember to take some time for himself as well so he can continue with his practice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that would be great. I mean, if you guys feel inclined to, I know many of you already are doing that. You can always send a message to Kun to volunteer, to help, you know, sort of lighten his burden, so to speak, and share in your generosity and helping continue with his efforts to really spread the Dhamma in his own way. You can take time for one more question, and then we'll share some merit.
Okay, it looks like nobody has questions. So let's hear some merit then. He's suffering free and the fear struck the face that he's been. He made me believe he shared all the beliefs and made me all the high and happy beliefs. All the beliefs shared this narrative that we had also heard. Thank you, everyone, and thank you, thank you so much, everybody. Thank you, Delson. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Take care.