Jhanas + Q&A Mumbai 2023 Acharya Delson Armstrong

Today we will talk about jhanas and what you can expect to experience as you progress. You might already start to experience at least the first jhana, if not the second jhana in these last two days, or at least in these next series of days, today or tomorrow. So the jhanas are levels of understanding, as Bhante Vimalaramsi would call them. They're also understood as levels of cessation, because as you progress through each jhana, you're ceasing coarser and coarser layers of conditioned experience. Traditionally, jhanas are seen as something that are an absorption-based experience. In other words, the mind focuses, concentrates intensely onto an object. And as it starts to increase that focus and concentration, the mind becomes absorbed in that.

So it becomes one with the object of meditation. And what happens is when you're having that kind of a meditation, it seems very nice, it seems very pleasant, a lot of great things seem to be going on, a lot of bliss, a lot of joy, a lot of happiness, a lot of clarity, calmness, and so on. But what's actually going on is when you're doing the one-pointed practice, you're suppressing the distractions in the mind, the hindrances. That's why it seems like the mind is quiet and the mind is free of any kind of distractions. And then even when you come out of that sit you will feel quite blissed out. You feel very spacious, you'll feel happy and elated and uplifting, and that might continue for an hour or two or even several hours.

But as soon as you're met with something that triggers a hindrance, whether it's sensual craving or aversion or restlessness or whatever, a whole storm of hindrances floods out. The analogy I always use is it's like you take a beach ball and you push it down under the water. And then when you let go, what happens? Because of that suppression of pushing down.

So in that regard, that practice is understood as constructing the experience of the jhanas. It's a process of constructing the conditions for that jhana to be experienced. So the first jhana, for example, is all about the culmination of joy and happiness. You become very concentrated, you push away the hindrances, and you become very concentrated, and as a result of which you experience this very much super mundane kind of joy. And then as you progress with that, you focus on the pleasant experience, and you might take that as the object and you run with that, and then you go through the other jhanas. But that is

a very short-term kind of success, let's say. It doesn't lead to the yoking of Samatha and Vipassana. So when we talk about Samatha and Vipassana, what are we talking about? Samatha here is calmness. Samatha here is a very serene kind of mind. And Vipassana is insight, it's wisdom. So that's why we talk about Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation. So it's the yoking together of Samatha and Vipassana. But the way to do it is not to construct an experience. The way to do it is to let go. By letting go, you experience jhana. And what are you letting go exactly? You're letting go of the hindrances.

With the hindrances. So when you sit down for practice, what are you doing? You sit down. What you might want to do is start off with a little bit of a body scan throughout your body. Maybe the first five minutes, you just go through your body and notice if there's any tightness and tension anywhere, and just soften and loosen and let that go, just relax it, and then bring up your smile and relax. And then use the words like, may I be happy, may I be well, may I be free of suffering, may I be filled with loving kindness, whatever works for you. Or if you're doing the six directions, may all beings be happy and so on.

And as you start with that, then you start to feel the actual loving kindness. Once you feel the loving kindness, your mind gravitates towards that and rests in that. The awareness rests in that, triggering the loving-kindness. Once you have it, once you experience it, you can let go of the words, you can let go of the imagery, you can let go of the things that were used to bring up loving-kindness. And so as a result of this, what is going on is you are starting to experience the first jhana. What are the main factors of the first jhana? What does it mean, quite secluded from sensual pleasures? It means you have withdrawn your mind away from the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, and the body, and just going into the mind.

Just like a tortoise or a turtle, it withdraws its limbs. You're doing the same thing: letting your mind rest into just the experience of a mental object, which is loving-kindness. Yes, it's a feeling-based sensation of loving-kindness, but that is felt primarily in the mind. The warmth that you will feel, everything else around that is secondary. What's more important is the feeling of appreciation, the feeling of gratitude, the feeling of benevolence, feeling of happiness that you experience. So now, when you do this, you're secluded from sensual pleasures and secluded from unwholesome states of mind. What are unwholesome states of mind? We talked about that yesterday. Hindrances. Secluded from hindrances. How do you get secluded from hindrances? You use right effort. You use the 4R's or the 6R's.

So, in Majjhima Nikaya 43, it's a dialogue between two arahants, between Sariputta and Mahapothita. And Mahapothita asks, what are the factors for samadhi? What is the equipment for samadhi? When we talk about samadhi, we're talking about meditation, an experience of deep collectedness and mental composure from which you experience the jhanas. And Sariputta says, the equipment and factors that you require for that is right effort and right mindfulness. That's the only way that leads to right samadhi, right meditation, right collectedness. So when we talk about right effort, we're talking about letting go. We're not talking about bringing up an experience. We're talking about abandoning our unwholesome states of mind, as a result of which you experience relief from that.

You have mindfulness because your mind is geared towards an object and it's observing what's happening in terms of its own attention. But when it is letting go of any hindrances, when it is free of any kinds of hindrances, the Buddha has used different metaphors, especially in Digha Nikaya 2, the Samannaphala Sutta, where he talks about how it's like being free from debt. It's like being free from slavery. It's like cool waters on a hot sunny day, right? It's the relief that you feel when you let go of the hindrances. That relief is pamojja, and that pamojja then leads to joy, to piti. So that's why the next part of that says: secluded from sensual pleasures, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, and secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters upon the first jhana, which is accompanied by thinking and examining thought, and joy and happiness born of that seclusion.

So before we go into that joy, what is the thinking and examining thought? This is called vitaka and vichara in Pali. Vitaka here is the initial intentionalizing of an object of meditation, the bringing up of an object of meditation. You're using terms in your mind like, may I be happy, may I be well, and so on, or you're using memories, wholesome memories or wholesome images. And then when you start feeling the loving kindness, you let go of that, and you sustain your attention and awareness onto the loving kindness, onto the feeling of loving kindness. That is the vichara. So now, being free of the hindrances and having this loving kindness, what naturally arises is joy.

Joy and comfort, piti and sukha. Piti is a form of mental elation, and sukha is a form of physical comfort, tranquility in the body. As you progress through this jhana, then once you've let go, then you experience what is known as self-confidence. Now there is a certain level of autopilot in this practice. You don't have to keep bringing up the feeling of loving-kindness. It sustains itself and you stay with it for quite some time. And so now you're like, okay, I can do this. And as it's flowing, now the joy becomes more. It starts to increase. The comfort in the body starts to become deeper. There's more tranquility in the body. And so now you have the pleasure and happiness, or joy and comfort, born of concentration or collectedness, which means because the mind is able to stay with the feeling of loving kindness for an extended amount of time, that's two minutes, three minutes, four minutes, five minutes at a time, there are greater degrees of joy that arise.

There's greater degrees of comfort and tranquility in the body that's present. And along with this, there is always this factor which is known as Ekagata. Now, Ekagata has always been translated as one-pointedness. But Ekagata is really more of a unification of mind. of meditation doesn't become absorbed; its attention is directed towards the object of meditation, in this case loving-kindness. So when we talk about unification of mind, the analogy here is you can think of the object of meditation as a planet and your mind's attention as the satellite that orbits around the planet. Now, if that satellite goes too close to the planet, what's going to happen? It's going to crash. If you become too absorbed in your object of meditation, you are unable to see what's going on in the periphery.

If there's not enough attention, that means there's sloth and torpor. There's a gap in your attention, in your awareness. It's the same with the satellite. It starts to come out of orbit. So what do you do? You need to send someone to bring it back into orbit, which is the 6R's, which is right effort. You're using right effort to say, okay, I see the satellite coming out of orbit. I'm going to redirect it back into orbit so that the mind's attention continues to revolve around the object. So while this is going on, you have the Ekagata. This is the unification of mind. As you continue to progress in staying with the feeling of loving-kindness, you will notice that parts of your body seem to disappear.

Maybe all you feel are your hands, or you might notice that there's a certain level of heaviness in the body. It feels like the body is rooted to your chair or rooted to the ground. Or on the flip side, it feels like there's a lightness to the body, like the body is becoming more expansive, like it's becoming more spacious. These are all signs and signatures of the third jhana. Here, in the third jhana, the joy fades away. So oftentimes there might be a participant who will say, I don't feel like I'm feeling a loving-kindness anymore, because it seems to be fading away. That's because they're mistaking the joy for the feeling of loving-kindness. So the question naturally arises: what is the difference between the feeling of loving kindness and the joy that arises?

The feeling of loving kindness is more in the mind. It's more in the heart, in the sense that it's more mental. The joy is experienced as an elation in the body. So it's very similar to the sukha, which is a tranquility in the body. But now the joy goes away, and there is more comfort, more balance, more tranquility in the body, and the mind feels more spacious. It almost feels like the feeling of loving kindness is starting to rise up towards the head. And as you progress even deeper, you'll notice that you don't feel your body anymore at all. That doesn't mean that if there's an ant crawling on your skin you won't feel that. That doesn't mean if the AC is too cold you won't feel that.

It just means that your mind's attention is no longer on the body, not fixated there. It's becoming further and further collected on the mental object. So now you're getting into the fourth jhana. So what is the signature of the fourth jhana? Essentially, it is a complete deep tranquility and serenity. And it is purity of mindfulness, due to equanimity. This is a very interesting statement. Why is it that here in the fourth jhana we're experiencing this? Because at that point, now you are primarily just in the mind, and your awareness, your attention, your mindfulness are crisp, clear, sharp, highly defined.

It's unwavering. Stays with the object all the time. And even if there's a hindrance out there in the distance, doesn't care about it. It's okay. It's there. It's fine. It goes. It's fine. Only when it realizes its attention is gone towards that hindrance completely, it uses the six Rs and comes back. But otherwise, the mind is totally equanimous. Totally balanced. This means that the mindfulness is very sharp over here.

Unadulterated mindfulness. Unaffected by anything. Remains steady. Composed. Due to equanimity. What is that equanimity? That upekkha. The ability to see things as they are without getting affected by them one way or the other. That is equanimity. So how do you gain this equanimity in the fourth jhana? You need a balance of collectedness and effort. And that happens naturally. As you keep 6R-ing coarser and coarser hindrances, and your mind becomes more and more collected, there is a balance, and the equanimity naturally arises. Now, this equanimity also arises because as you're progressing through these four jhanas, you're also seeing, if you are able to see it, and if you're not, it's okay. But you're also experiencing the balancing of the enlightenment factors.

Yesterday we spoke about those as well. What are the seven enlightenment factors? Mindfulness, investigation of states, energy, joy, tranquility, collectedness, and equanimity. Now, as you're progressing through the jhanas, your mind goes from mindfulness, which leads to investigation, of energy, which leads to joy and tranquility, which leads to collectedness, which finally leads to equanimity. So it seems like it's linear. Not only is it linear, it's also cyclical. That equanimity then informs the next arising of mindfulness, and so the mindfulness becomes more steeped in that equanimity, deeper clarified by that equanimity, and you progress continuously in this way. So you cycle through the enlightenment factors. Until in the fourth jhana, what do you have? Purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

Due to that equanimity arising through the balancing of the enlightenment factors. Now at this point, what will happen is it feels like the loving-kindness has expanded. Sometimes people will feel like the loving-kindness has gone up to the head. Sometimes it feels like the loving-kindness has expanded. Sometimes it feels like there's no feeling of loving kindness, but more of a deeper equanimity that's going on. If that's going on, then I will change your meditation. The meditation will be changed into breaking down the barriers. So breaking down the barriers is where you send loving kindness to different individuals, different beings in your life. And that just further refines the feeling of loving kindness so that it becomes more spacious.

Expansive. And so at this point, then you're ready to get into what are the ayatanas. There are actually only four jhanas. When we talk about the ayatanas, sometimes colloquially they are seen as the arupa jhanas, or the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth jhana. But in reality, they are the ayatanas. And ayatana here means space, or dimension, or sphere. And so when you are in the fourth jhana and you experience infinite space or infinite consciousness or nothingness or neither perception nor non-perception, it's all happening from the base of the fourth jhana, always. So at this point, what are you going to do? You're going to radiate in the six directions. We talked about radiating. What does that mean? Allow the feeling of loving-kindness to spread around you, and then in a certain direction, don't push it. Just have your attention in that particular direction, and allow the loving-kindness to start to fill up that direction. Just observe, wait, and see for yourself. And as this happens, you notice that the feeling of loving-kindness starts to spread out in each direction, and ultimately in all directions at the same time.

And so this is infinite space. Infinite space is you traverse, or you transcend, the notion of form, the notion of diversity, as it's known in the suttas. Because when we talk about diversity and perception of diversity, perception of form, it's related to the body and anything that's happening in the body, related to the touch with the body, hearing something, whatever it is. Doesn't mean you won't be able to hear something. Doesn't mean you won't be able to feel something. All it means is it becomes more distant as an experience. What you will experience is infinite space. The feeling of loving kindness will change into a softer feeling, which is compassion.

Karuna. What is compassion? means that I have to experience the same level of suffering as another, and I have to take on their suffering. That's just sacrificing your own peace of mind. That's not what compassion is. Compassion is very similar to empathy, in that you recognize the suffering in another individual, and you want them to be free of suffering. You become a crutch to them to come out of that suffering. But you are there as a support and as a guide. The Buddha has even said this. He's talked about it, where he said that when a question was asked to him, he said, why is it that in your Dhamma there are those who do experience nibbana and there are those who don't experience nibbana?

Why is that? And the Buddha gives him an interesting example. He says, let's say there were two people on the way to Rajagaha, trying to find this place called Rajagaha, and they asked someone the directions to go to Rajagaha. And that person gives them the directions: you go here, you take a left, when you see this you do this, all that. The first person doesn't listen to the instructions, doesn't actually follow them, and is unable to find Rajagaha. The second person, however, is following the instructions and finds themselves in Rajagaha. And so the Buddha says, why is it that the first person wasn't able to reach Rajagaha and the second person was?

And so the other person says, as to that, it's because they weren't following instructions. One wasn't following instructions and one was. In the same way, he says to that person, I too, out of wisdom and compassion, provide the teachings, walk the path for you. You must do it yourself. So out of compassion, a Buddha comes and reveals the way out of suffering. But in order to come out of that suffering, the practitioner themselves has to make the effort. So in the same way, when we talk about compassion, you are there. You provide advice. You provide support. You do all kinds of things that you can, within limitation, within your own energies, and then they're on their own.

They have to take the tools that you provide and use them and walk the path. So compassion is an antidote to cruelty. When we talk about right intention, there are three components to right intention. The first is renunciation, letting go of taking things personally with every kind of experience. The second is non-ill will, kindness. And the third is non-cruelty, or non-harming. Because when we talk about cruelty, we're saying that we recognize the suffering in another individual. Somebody's upset at us, and we act in kind and become upset at them. All we're doing is adding to their suffering. And so that is cruel. But through the cultivation of compassion and the recognition of that person's suffering, we say, I do not want to add to this person's anger.

I do not want to add to this person's suffering. So let me let go of my own anger, and let me see if I can de-escalate the situation and calm this person down and make them see in a different way. So that is non-cruelty, and it's cultivated through compassion. So tied to the experience of infinite space, there is the experience of compassion. And this comes from the understanding of the sutta called Metta Sahagata Sutta. I'm not saying this. Bhante Vimalaramsi alone wasn't saying it. It was all rooted, it is all rooted, in the understanding of what the Buddha has said in the suttas. Conjoined to infinite space, there is the experience of compassion. The limits of compassion is infinite space.

What does that mean? It means you can experience compassion in the first jhana, second jhana, third jhana, fourth jhana, up to infinite space. Now, when you are sending out this feeling of compassion, as it changes, the border between what is inside and outside starts to become more diminished, until there is just a feeling of spaciousness. And that spaciousness continues outward, as much as it can, and then all of a sudden you start to notice something else. The periphery of your mind's eye starts to break down. This is one kind of experience somebody can have. This is getting towards the base of infinite consciousness. What is infinite consciousness? So one understanding is that you're experiencing the

awareness filling up the entirety of that infinite space, and so by definition that is infinite awareness, infinite consciousness. And that's one level of experiencing infinite consciousness. But what happens later is a person might notice in their mind's eye that things start to break down. You might see of light. You might see rings of light. You might see different kinds of patterns. You might see flickering behind your eyelids, or what can happen is you might hear flickering in the ears. Some people might feel electricity crawling up their skin. They might feel it on their face, as if there are ants or spiders on their face. Don't worry, there aren't. It's just an emanation of infinite consciousness. Some people will experience phantom tastes. Some people will experience phantom smells. All of a sudden you might smell incense, or you might smell flowers or something pleasant, and it might not be there. So these are all emanations of the experience of infinite consciousness, because what's going on is in your mind, as it gets calmer and deeper, it starts to break down the very processes of conscious experience, conditioned experience.

What you're seeing is the arising and passing away of infinite consciousnesses. So this is, sometimes it's seen in traditional vipassana where you start to see the arising and passing away of phenomena, and you're looking for them. But here, in infinite consciousness, it naturally arises. Where the mind sees for itself the arising and passing away of consciousnesses, whether it's tied to the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body, or even the mind. You might notice that the gaps between thoughts that might arise start to become wider. And there's a spaciousness there. So this is all basically showing you in your own way, in your own mind, that consciousness or awareness is not fluid, but it is dependent upon causes and conditions.

And so what you're actually seeing is the arising and passing away of contact. Contact, contact, contact, going on continuously at the level of mind. So it's not like as if your eyes are experiencing strobe-like lights or that your ears are flickering, actually. This is all happening in the mind, almost like a hallucination. And that's where you understand this phrase, "Mind is chief. Mind is the forerunner of all states." This is what you read when you read those statements from the Dhammapada. So as you start to notice this, what you're also going to see is that after a certain while, it becomes tiresome to watch this constant arising and passing away of phenomena. That tiresomeness, that bored feeling, is dukkha, is suffering.

And then you realize that actually I'm not the one controlling the arising and passing away of this phenomenon. It's just arising due to certain causes and conditions. And this is all happening in the mind. It's just insights that are arising on their own. And then you realize that this whole process is totally impersonal. And so now you see the perception of impermanence leads to the perception of suffering. The perception of suffering leads to the perception of not-self. This is not me. This is not mine. This is not myself. I am not in control here. From there, you experience equanimity. So before I go into that, I also say that the compassion that you experience in infinite space, that also changes into an experience of joy.

But it is not the same kind of joy that you experience in the first or second jhana, a more diffused kind of joy. This is known as mudita, empathetic joy. Empathetic joy is a wonderful antidote to whenever you feel envy or jealousy. Empathetic joy means that you are celebrating in the happiness of another individual. Instead of coveting what they have, you say, that is wonderful. I am genuinely happy for that person's success. So it's a wonderful antidote for jealousy and envy. Now, as you progress through infinite consciousness, you get into what's known as nothingness. What is that nothingness? So you start to notice the gaps in the awareness, in the arising and passing away of phenomena.

And those gaps start to become wider and wider and wider. They fill up your entire mental screen, as it were, and now you're experiencing no thing in particular. It's just a blank space. It could be a white space, it could be a black space, it could be a blue space, it could be whatever space it is. But there's nothing going on there at all, and the mind is not bothered about the externalities. It's completely internalized in this nothingness. And because you have the perception of impermanence, which leads to the perception of dukkha, which leads to the perception of anatta, then that leads to the perception of equanimity or upekkha. So tied to this nothingness is the brahmavihara of equanimity.

What does equanimity feel like? It doesn't feel like anything in particular. That's why people are always trying to figure out how do I bring up equanimity? How do I feel equanimity? Well, it's the total loss of all feeling. That's equanimity. It's a feeling of calmness. How do you bring up equanimity? You can wish that all beings feel peaceful. All beings feel calm. You know how that feels. And you tap into that. And at this point, when you're in that perception of nothingness, or in that ayatana, nothingness, your mind will slowly, gently experience the equanimity spreading out like gentle soft ripples on the surface of the lake, very slowly, very softly, and it diminishes, and nothing goes on for quite some time. And if you notice this, then you notice, okay, equanimity is not there again. So you bring it up a little bit. You just intentionalize some equanimity and let that keep going.

There comes a point as you keep doing this where the mind feels like it doesn't want to do anything at all. And at that point, there'll be a slight tension if you try to bring up that equanimity. So now what are you doing? Now you are transcending the experience of the brahmaviharas. Mind itself, it's really the final frontier. Star Trek said that space is the final frontier. Mind is the final frontier, right? So now your awareness is just resting in mind itself. Just mind. This isn't quiet mind. This isn't clear mind. This isn't any kind of mind. It's just mind. That's it. Now, as you stay with this mind, you're not to do anything.

There's a tendency for the mind to think, okay, maybe I need to balance the enlightenment factors. Maybe I have to look at something. Maybe I have to observe something. Maybe I have to calm something. Maybe I have to tranquilize this. Maybe I have to bring up a little more joy. I have to do this, that, or the other.

Don't do anything. That is the most difficult thing for the mind to do, is not to do anything. Because the mind is always seeking an object, is always seeking something that it wants to do. So how do you not do anything? Just don't do anything. If I tell you to just rest, then your mind will be focused on resting. If I tell you to relax, then your mind will be focused on, am I relaxed enough? If I tell you to observe just the mind, then your mind will be focused on the action of observing. But now you're coming into a point where mind becomes actionless. No activity. Just there. Don't do anything. And the more you don't do anything, the deeper the mind gets.

What is going on here? Up until this point, we have used the brahmaviharas and we have traversed through the first seven jhanas as they were, because we are keeping that part of the mind that feels like it wants to do something busy until it tires out and until it just wants to not do anything. So while you're here, what happens is your mind starts to sink deeper into what's known as neither perception nor non-perception. What does that mean? Neither perception nor non-perception. So what is perception? We have two things. We have feeling and we have perception.

Feeling is the experience of something, through the five physical sense bases. Perception is recognizing what that experience is. So you seeing me is the feeling. Right now your eyes are making contact with my color and form, and the light that bounces off hits your retina, and that's contact. As a result of that, there is the feeling of seeing me. But knowing who is speaking is the recognizing, is the perception. So another way of looking at neither perception nor non-perception is neither recognition nor non-recognition. There's just an awareness. There's just an experience. Thoughts come and go. Very, very disconnected thoughts come and go in the form of images, in the form of what seem like your memories, but not exactly, in the form that seem like patterns, very distant, almost like you're in a hypnagogic state.

You're like in the border between being awake and asleep. And so a lot of people report that when they're in this jhana, it feels like they've been asleep, but they're alert at the same time. There's no grogginess over there. So sometimes they mistake that for sloth and torpor. Sloth and torpor, there is grogginess there. But in the eighth jhana of neither perception or non-perception, there's alertness there, but the mind starts to wind down. And so these different kinds of patterns, these different kinds of disconnected images and thoughts, and sometimes even you might have like a loop of music playing. Like you have no idea where that's coming from. Different things happen. It's very, very weird and strange.

So what do you do there? Anything do you look at those things? No, because the moment you look at them, what's going to happen? You're going to perceive them. You're going to recognize what those things are, and you've come out of neither perception nor non-perception. But if you just let them be and just let them pass, then you remain in that neither perception nor non-perception, and due to the lack of fuel of your attention to those things, eventually they fade away completely. And now you come into what is properly known as quiet mind. So what is quiet mind? Quiet mind is translated from the Pali, Pabhasara Chitta, the luminous mind, the mind that is fully aware, fully luminous, unmoving, unchanging, unwavering, just right there, still, not doing anything, just there. There will be little things that come and go at this point, very small things, and these are sankharas, these are formations that keep coming and going, and you just let them be. So at this point, we talked about the perception of impermanence, which leads to the perception of dukkha, which leads to the perception of suffering, which leads to the perception of equanimity.

Now, that perception of equanimity leads to the perception of disenchantment. What is disenchantment? Disenchantment comes from the Pali word nibida. Nibida means revulsion. I've had enough of this, for example, right? Somebody gives you a bowl of your favorite flavor of ice cream, and you relish the experience. You really like it, and you think maybe I'll have a second bowl. And before you even ask for a second bowl, the person gives you that second bowl. By the time you're finished with that second bowl, you're pretty content and satisfied, but the person brings a third bowl of ice cream to you, and you don't want to be impolite, so you say, okay, I'll maybe have a few bites.

And before you know it, you finish the third bowl. And now you're going to be sick. And so before they even give you the fourth bowl, you say, I've had enough. This is disenchantment. You've had enough of the mental chatter that's going on. You've had enough of those different disconnected thoughts that are coming and going in the mind, and the arising and passing away of subtle sankharas, or formations. These are like little proto-thoughts before they bubble up to the surface to form a fully formed thought. You've had enough of that. So you remain disconnected from all of that, detached from all of that. And this leads to this passion. Viraga. No passion. No interest. Just remain still. And then at that point, that quiet mind goes even deeper into what's known as still mind.

So that still mind is absolutely serene. Not even a fraction of a vibration going on in the mind. And this can continue for 5, 10, 20, 30, 50, even up to 2 hours of absolute stillness in the mind. Nothing at all. At that point, you don't do anything at all either. It's only when your mind gets distracted that you relax and you come back. And only when you feel some kind of agitation come up that you bring micro doses of tranquility.

Right? If your mind gravitates towards too much energy, because it's bored. Because at this point, what happens when the mind is quiet and still? It's seeking something. It's always seeking activity. And when it doesn't have it, what does it do? It shuts down and becomes bored. And that boredom can go one of two ways. The boredom can create restlessness. The mind throws all kinds of thoughts towards itself, so it can become enchanted by that. And so what do you do there? You tranquilize. You relax. But if that's not working, what do you do? This is what you do. You go back to nothingness and you radiate equanimity again. You come back to the experience of equanimity and you allow that equanimity to be spread out again until you get back to mind and quiet mind.

Because we have a dependent origination, we also have a dependent cessation. We have links or factors that lead to cessation. So how do you get back that disenchantment? You cannot call up disenchantment. It's like a fruit of a certain kind of effort. It's conditioned by equanimity. So bring up that equanimity. Bring up that equanimity. Bring up what is dependent upon that: further collectedness through joy or through loving kindness. So go back, repeat, until you have strong equanimity, and then let go and stay in mind. And there you have strong disenchantment, and as a result of that you have this passion completely detached. Nothing sticks to the mind. Everything just glides, slides through the mind. Nothing sticks.

So at this point, you are getting into another layer of the Eighth Jhana, which is known as animitta samadhi. Animitta. Nimitta here means object. So animitta means no object. Up until this time, in this Eighth Jhana, without knowing it, as the object, the mind has been observing itself. The mind has folded in on itself and there is an awareness of awareness. But now you let go of even that. How do you let go of that? You just relax the periphery of the mind and don't look at anything in particular. This animitta samadhi, this signless collectedness of mind, happens naturally as a result, or in tandem with passion, because it has become disinterested in any objects whatsoever.

Oftentimes, a lot of people would argue with Bhante Vimalaramsi that the brahmaviharas don't lead to nibbana. Well, in that case, nor does anapanasati, nor does any object of meditation lead you to nibbana. It's only when you let go of all conditions, including the objects of meditation, that the mind touches nibbana. So at this point, what have you done? You have let go of the brahmaviharas and come to just mind. And you've taken the mind as your object up until this point. But with the animitta samadhi, the signless collectedness of mind, your mind is just aware. There's just pure awareness, but not of any object in particular. You can imagine your mind's attention like a ray of light from a flashlight.

And you shine that flashlight up into the sky. And let's say that there is nothing blocking that light. No clouds, no particles, no birds, no airplanes, no UFOs, no satellites, nothing. Not even meteors, anything. It just keeps going out into space. The same way, your awareness is just aware, but it's not landing on any object. And eventually, what happens? The batteries of the flashlight run out. The batteries here are the sankharas of your mind, the formations. Because they don't have attention being given to them, they run out. And as the fuel of those sankharas runs out, what happens? The flashlight switches off. And your mind, when you least expect it, please listen carefully, when you least expect it, the mind drops into cessation.

You can't expect a cessation to happen, because expectation is another word for craving. You can't wait for cessation to happen, because waiting is another word for craving. You just have to be present and eventually even let go of that. And when the causes and conditions are right, the mind drops into cessation. Now, for the sake of understanding, let's say this is somebody's first time entering into cessation. If the causes and conditions are right, at that point, because the mind has let go of all conditions, it touches what's known as the nibbana dhatu, that is, the nibbana element. And when it makes contact with the nibbana element, it comes back up, and there is a feeling that is conditioned by that experience.

That contact itself is understood to be signless. It's understood to be undirected. It's understood to be empty of any self. It means it has no object, right? That's why it's signless. It has no craving, and that's why there's no direction being given to it. And there is no permanent self in that. That's why it is empty of any inherent self. That contact itself, being unconditioned, gives rise to a certain feeling. That feeling that arises is a rush of relief and joy. And in tandem with that, you will see the links of dependent origination, and they will be your mind's representation of that. And there, the first time around, the mind says, wow, what was that? And immediately it says, I want more of that, without you even realizing it. That's why, followed by that feeling, craving arises, and identification with it arises. And now the mind still has more work to be done, more work to do.

So if you do have that experience, then the teacher will say, that's wonderful, that's great, your mind is ripe. Why don't you go sit again and rinse and repeat? So, just for the purposes of your understanding, I'll go through the four-stage model. We have sotapanna, or stream entry. We have sakadagami, or once-returner. We have anagami, or non-returner. And we have arahant, or one who is fully awakened. A sotapanna is somebody who has entered and won the stream. In other words, they have let go of all doubts in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha through experience of nibbana. They have actually seen for themselves that this process works.

Let go of any kind of doubt. They have full experiential conviction. They also have let go of any attachment to rites and rituals, because they realize that rites and rituals, though they uplift the mind, whether you want to light a candle, you want to light some incense, you want to do a chant, you want to pray, whatever it is, that's all fine. But you realize that that's not what takes you to the ultimate. These are all just steps. You let go of any clinging to rites and rituals. And you let go of the belief in a personal self, because you see that this whole process is actually impersonal. There is no controller here. There is no underlying permanent sense of identity that runs from moment to moment.

Because you have seen it in your own experience, you let go of that. So from an intellectual understanding, formed by experience in the meditation, now you've let go of that. You will still identify as a stream enter. You will still identify and take things personally, and that's where the conceit drops away. That will drop away later. But say somebody has an experience that becomes a sakadagami. That is somebody who is a once-returner. A once-returner is somebody who has diminished sensual craving and aversion. So for a stream enter, they will still have some kind of craving, but they will have more mindfulness. So they'll be able to recover from that. If they get angry at someone, instead of being angry at that person for a whole day or for a whole week, they'll say, you know what, does it make sense for me to hold on to this?

I'm just going to let that go. So they recover from that. They might take half a day, but they might take a couple of hours to let go of that. For a once-returner, their mindfulness is even sharper. So before the aversion can even arise, meaning there's still some seed there, before the craving can arise, meaning that there's still some seed there, they can recognize it and let it go before it becomes emanated as some kind of action. But even if they act out of sensual craving or they act out of aversion, they recover from it quickly. As soon as they do it, they're like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. And so they let go.

With the anagami, a non-returner, all seeds of sensual craving and aversion are gone. Not even a flicker of craving or aversion can arise. No frustration, no irritation, nothing. There's a lot of freedom in being in that kind of state of mind. Such an individual just travels through life without any worry at all. And their mind starts to gravitate more and more towards the Dhamma. And then you have the arahant, who's let go of all ten fetters, including the five higher fetters. What are the five higher fetters? Restlessness, craving for form jhanas, craving for formless jhanas, conceit, and ignorance. Restlessness here is when you sit down for meditation and it takes you a little while before your mind can become collected.

That's because of the general restlessness of the mind. For the arahant, when they sit down to meditate, as soon as they sit down, they're in that particular jhana. There's no lag time, as it were. There's no need to take out the garbage of the Mayan to come into jhana. It's just immediately there. So there's a lack of any kind of restlessness. They let go of craving for form jhana and craving for formless jhana. what the experience is. Their mind is actually always in nibbana for the arahant. And I'll explain what that means. And then finally, they've let go of all conceit, which means they no longer compare themselves with another person. There's no I am better than, or I am lower than, or even I am equal to.

All notions of identity as me, mine, or myself, in the form of identifying any of the five aggregates, or identifying with any of the six sense bases, goes away completely. And finally, ignorance goes, which means there is a full understanding of the four noble truths. That means that they have fully understood what suffering is, completely abandoned all the causes and conditions for suffering, experienced fully and realized for themselves the total cessation of suffering, and perfected the cultivation of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. That's why, for the arahant, they don't have an eightfold path. They have a tenfold path. They unlock two more factors, which are right knowledge and right liberation. The right knowledge here is the understanding of the Four Noble Truths.

And the right liberation here is their ability to go into Nibbana whenever they want. To be able to touch Nibbana whenever they want. So I mentioned that the arahant's mind is always in Nibbana. What does that mean? There is another Sutta where the Buddha talks about these two kinds of Nibbana. Nibbana with remainder and Nibbana without remainder. Nibbana with remainder is Nibbana with the five aggregates. Nibbana without remainder is generally understood as Parinibbana. The disconnection from all five aggregates. But the arahant is able to do that even while they're alive. Because their mind is free of any greed, hatred, and delusion, by default their mind is experiencing Nibbana with remainder through the experience of the five aggregates.

But when they sit down for meditation, they disconnect from all five aggregates and touch the Nibbana element. And this is understood as Phala Samadhi. The fruition meditation, where they touch the Nibbana element and stay in that. So this is how an arahant meditates. They can meditate the same way anyone else will, but they don't have any kinds of barriers. A mind rid of any kind of barriers. A mind that is completely free of any craving, any kind of identification, and any kind of ignorance. So meaning their mindfulness is sharp literally 24-7, even while they're asleep. So that's just a little bonus to understanding the jhanas, the states of awakening that are there. Any questions?

Yeah. Absolutely. From the first jhana onwards. That's what I'm saying. Disenchantment cannot be practiced. It arises naturally. It arises as a result of letting go. He's telling the monks that eye consciousness, he's telling the different forms, they are constantly changing. And then he says, since it is constantly changing, and he's still using that to cultivate it. That is the anicca-sanna, right? And then he says, this is the anicca-sanna, the perception of impermanence, which leads to disenchantment, leads to dispassion and cessation. So I will say that you can experience cessation from the first jhana onwards, but you need the first jhana. You need a jhana. This is very important to understand. It's not the sevenfold path.

It's the eightfold path, which means the samadhi, that is the samma samadhi, includes the four jhanas. One or more of the four jhanas. So when the Buddha, oftentimes when the Buddha is giving a discourse, sometimes it's in the form of a guided meditation. And when the monks are following his words, they are invariably going into jhana. This happens even in Dhamma talks where someone is listening and their mind becomes very deep and collected that they go into jhana, experience cessation just by listening. So there's no difference, really. It's just that one is by listening and the other is by meditation. But in both cases, the mind is experiencing a deep level of Samadhi. In this case, while listening.

In this case, by meditation. That's it. That's the only difference. By the way, did you play the five aggregate meditation today? Oh, good. What did you guys think? Cool? Does the breath stop? No. This is another misunderstanding that people might have. And it can happen that the breath can stop. But only for a certain amount of time. What's actually happening is the mind becomes so tranquil that even the breathing becomes very tranquil, to the point that it is almost imperceptible and even imperceptible at times. So because the mind is letting go, so this is the other thing to understand. When we talk about cessation, we're also talking about the letting go of formations. Letting go of three types of formations.

Again, going back to Majjhima Nikaya 43, the dialogue between Sariputta and Mahakotita, Sariputta says there are three formations, three sets of formations that cease in a certain order for cessation to happen. The first is verbal formations. What are verbal formations? Verbal formations are those formations that cause you to intentionalize. So vitakka and vicara. When you go into the second jhana, those sankharas cease. Doesn't mean thoughts cease. Thoughts are just feeling. But the intentions of thinking, about a certain thought. Those are related to verbal formations. That ceases. In the fourth jhana, the bodily formations cease. So generally, the body is connected to the breath, the inhalation and the exhalation of the breath. But it's also related to other bodily processes, including activities like walking, sitting, standing, and so on.

So anytime you intentionalize to do anything in the body, or related to the body, that's a bodily formation that's causing it. Separate to that, there's also something known as ayu-sankharas. So this is related to longevity of the body. So this is related to parts or processes in the body like metabolism, circulation, autonomic kind of functions, certain things and so on. So that only ceases when the body is dead. Even in cessation, those ayu-sankharas continue. And then later on in the 8th jhana, when all perception ceases, that is the cessation of all mental formations, which is the cessation of feeling and perception as well. So the breath becomes imperceptible, becomes soft, becomes even more prolonged between one inhalation and one exhalation and so on. That's the only thing that's happening. That just means that your mind is becoming more and more collected, so it's becoming less enchanted with the body, less connected with bodily processes, and just more in mind.

That could also suggest you're too concentrated. So back away a little bit. Relax a little bit. There you go. Yeah. to what I just asked, whether in any of the jhanas our heart will stop beating. A few years ago, there was a video going on social media where one of the monks decides to lay down and all his body functions cease, including his pulse gets disappeared. And then somebody responded to that saying, that cease was some Gandara art or something. This is a process of, it can be either cessation or it can be a process of suspended animation. Where even the bodily functions, like the heart, circulation, all of that starts to cease. Up to seven days.

That's what the Suttas say. Lucky him, that's good for him. Fortunate for him. Good timing. Exactly. It can happen. It can happen. Yeah. There's a tendency usually for the meditator to push the feeling. It's like, I'm going to send out loving kindness in this direction, send out loving kindness in this direction, and so on. What I'm saying is if you do that, there's a tendency for the mind to become too focused and thus cause tightness and tension in the head. To a specific direction, let's say in the forward direction. And you just let the mind observe that. And through the observing of that, you see how the loving kindness grows in that direction.

So your intention to be attentive to that direction is what allows the pervading of the loving kindness. Rather than you pushing it out, space, holding a space for the loving kindness to be there, and then on its own start to expand. It happens automatically. Right. Automatically. Naturally. Organically. Yeah. Can you read out in so much detail all the different steps and stages and phenomena which happen? I might have experienced different things out of what you've said. Yeah. But I have never had, I mean, it's like, that much awareness and clarity, now exactly this is happening, now exactly this is happening, now this. The way you laid it out may not, but there would be some experience down the line which would have happened similar to what you said.

Right. So does one need to know this or does one basically just have to six hour? Six hour to your way to cessation. Whatever I've laid out to you or shown to you in this discourse is basically all of the things that can happen. But not all of the things that need to happen. It can be a tendency for a lot of people, for example, will go into infinite space and then skip infinite consciousness, and then go into nothingness. That's okay. That happens. But at some point later on, when you're more advanced, you can always revisit the terrain, as it were, and start to notice the different detailing that's there. But when you're on retreat and when you're starting out, if the mind skips, that's okay.

No problem. Talked about the possibility that sometimes the mind just wants to become just here in this much space. And you had, I think, mentioned that be a little wary, be a little aware that that might be causing some suppression. But that's what I understood. I'm not sure if that's what you meant. And then you had talked about broadening.

Yeah. I have found that to go into some of the more balanced, quiet states, when I stay just with this, it seems to happen, but when I'm broadening, it doesn't seem to tranquilize that easily. So I'm wondering, that has there been just being with this much space? Do you think there could have possibly been suppression, or is it hard to... I don't think there could have been suppression. I think it's more about understanding that if the mind becomes... The only way you'll know that it was suppression is if the mind becomes like steel, brittle and hard.

But if the mind is malleable, then there's no suppression going on. And the other thing is the state of fragmenting thoughts. Yeah. How do you know whether it is sloth and torpor or it is in neither perception or non-perception? Yeah. Because sometimes after that suddenly there's some balance. Yeah. This brings up an interesting point as well, your question, because sloth and torpor means that the mind is dull. There's not a lot of attention going on there. Grogginess, a certain kind of sleepiness. But with neither perception or non-perception, you can wink out, as it were, into micro-cessations where all of a sudden your mind went somewhere for a split second and you come back up and you're like, what happened?

But it's not a full-blown cessation. And you'll notice after that, your mind is actually more alert, brighter. Was that's there that wasn't there before, that's happening, then you're on the right path. And I would say if you keep ceasing out as a war, keep going in that direction. Nothing to change. But if there's a dullness after that, then you know it's in the direction of sloth and torpor. Yeah, and that's the thing. It's actually very much the same principle that's going on. The only difference is there is a heaviness in sloth and torpor. That's what I'm saying. But there's a lightness in this other kind of post-microcessation. Goes into sloth and torpor. You catch a thought.

And then there may suddenly be an experience of balance. So that is just sloth and torquot and coming out of it into balance. Is that what that is? Right. So that has nothing to do with neither perception or non-perception. Right. Yeah. What he was saying, before, sometimes, yeah yeah so again like I said the reason why it's so similar when you fall asleep and going to neither perception or non-perception is because the same principles of mind are at play where the mind is shutting down as it were certain elements of the mind are shutting down the only difference is that in one case it leads you to cessation where you come out and the other is it leads you into sleep where you're actually still conscious you might not be aware of it but you're still conscious and another thing is that that activity especially when you're meditating for a long period of time and you go to sleep you find it more difficult to go to sleep faster

coming up. And so in order to prevent that from happening, one of the things I will suggest for everybody is, when every session that you come out of, every sitting that you come out of, spend a couple of minutes to look back on how the meditation went. Go back and see what happened, and if there's things that you might have missed out on, just six are those and let those go. Maybe you don't need that much sleep. What can also happen is, I mean, this has happened in some retreats, is where somebody's falling asleep and suddenly at like 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. they'll wake up, and if you're up for it, try to sit for an hour or 45 minutes and see how that works.

That's a really good time to meditate. Yeah. Yeah. And I realize that this could be misconstrued as saying that you need to be sleep-deprived for success in meditation, because it has happened before where somebody has asked me that. And I'm telling you here right now, right here, right now: you do not need to be sleep deprived. Please get enough sleep. Someone can do that and go back to sleep. Exactly. Go back to sleep. I do that. Or take naps in the day. And when I say take naps, it doesn't mean a siesta of three hours. It means 20 minutes. 20 minutes at the most. I had a college student who came to Dhammasuka in the U.S.

and I had told everybody, like, I encourage good amounts of sleep and naps on these retreats. So at the interview, this college kid comes and he says, you know, everything's going great and all is fine. But, you know, I noticed that when I go for a nap, I feel groggy after that night, and I'm taking advantage of all the naps. I said, how long are you sleeping for? Three hours, three and a half hours. When are you going to meditate?

So the naps that you should take is 15 to 20 minutes. Anything beyond that, you start to go into a different stage of sleep, and that's where the grogginess starts to arise. This is known as NDSR, non-deep sleep rest. 15 to 20 minutes. Keep making adjustments accordingly. If you start to notice that the mind starts to tighten up, then you know you need to bring more space. You need to widen. If you notice that the mind is too loose, then let go of that and let the mind become a little bit more collected. Everybody will do it differently, because it's according to their faculties and according to what their mind is used to. So you have to make adjustments accordingly.

This whole process of meditation is continual observing and using the six R's in accordance to what is arising in the form of the hindrance. So if there's a mind that has a tendency to become more concentrated, then I will suggest to them that you need more space in the mind. If there's a tendency for the mind to be too flittering here and there, then I'll say, bring more energy and effort into being more concentrated. When you get into a point where the metta starts to feel like it's in the head, then I will give you certain instructions, and those instructions are called breaking down the barriers, where you send it to other spiritual friends, you send it to family members, you send it to other people in your life, enemies, and so on and so forth.

That's the practice. It's nice to just go through those step-by-step. I find that very useful and also very overwhelming. Yeah. It's just because the mind isn't used to it yet. Until the mind starts to adapt to it, then everything seems a little bit too much or too overwhelming. Just because you mentioned that, because if there are people who are doing the forgiveness practice, it's important to understand that when you do the forgiveness practice, practice, not to relive the experiences and the emotionality of those experiences. It's more about when they come up, you're aware of them, you have some level of equanimity towards them in the sense of accepting that they happened or that they're there, and having the intention of genuinely letting go of them.

Forgiving myself for not understanding. There was a recognition. Receiving. I mean, I would say that I received my own loving kindness or joy. And that itself was very new and overwhelming. And I could see how much was, I mean, what I was really seeking, I suppose. Yeah. It did calm things down. Right. So I'm used to breaking down barriers in that sense. Good, good.

Yeah. Yeah, so this might be beyond the scope of what we're talking about. And also, I'm far from our hardship, so I'm not sure if I'm very qualified to ask this question. But I'm curious as to, once you become an arahant, then what? Like, what happens when you die as an arahat? You come back and go, wait, why is this all still here? Why is the world still as I experienced it before? I thought you were going to ask the usual question that people ask, which is, when an arahat dies, what happens? No, I don't care so much about that. Okay, good. What did you mean when you said Anthe will come poking around his students?

I'll talk about that in a little bit. So, yeah, why is this all still here in terms of objects and people and things like that? Because that's just the way the sixth sense basis functions. So that's why I talk about this world that we experience is really the matrix. But how we experience this world is through the five physical senses that are accustomed to seeing a certain bandwidth of information and data. But does that mean that it's not possible for not even an arahant, I mean, not just an arahant, but even somebody who is not full, even a stream enterer, they can expand that bandwidth? And so that's what's known as psychic faculties: being able to see other beings, being able to listen far off, being able to read the minds of other beings, things like that. So in the same way, what is it that defines an arahant? That's first and foremost. An arahant is also known as a khinasava.

Khinasava means one who has destroyed the taints, the taints of sensual craving, the taint of existential craving, and the taint of ignorance. So you can have an arahant who has absolutely no psychic faculties, and they'll still just experience this world the same way. If there's an arahant who's awakened some psychic faculties, they might see other things, other beings. They might see other dimensions and things like that. But it's all related to these faculties that are inherent in the body. So the only difference is, and this is what I've talked about in the book, A Mind Without Craving. One of the last things I talk about is, when somebody becomes an arahant, it's like they have become Neo in the matrix.

They've seen the ones and zeros that are functioning. But they still go into the matrix knowing that it's the matrix. So when they come back into this world out of that cessation, they're functioning in this world, but no longer connected with this world through craving and so on and so forth. And then whatever fuel runs out is whatever fuel runs out. That's really what it is. Yeah. Right, exactly. So the intention for an Arahant, for example, will not be an intention rooted in craving or conceit. In other words, whatever action and speech that they have is spontaneous in terms of adapting to whatever is required for the situation. So automatically, they will take into account everything that's involved and not from just me, mine, or myself.

More related to what seems most beneficial for everyone concerned. cessation of this particular karma yeah okay so so that's what I was talking about when we talk about anagamis right when somebody becomes an anagami there are five different types of anagami the first kind of anagami is one who is who dies as an anagami they might go from becoming a sakuragami to an anagami and before they pass on they become an anagami and before they go into the next life or into if there's not enough fuel to take them to the next life right there and then they will be extinguished and become an arahat but there are anagamis who from there they will it's called upon landing meaning as soon as they land into the next abode into the next realm there they become extinguished and attain nibbana

then there is the anagamis who they enter the pure abode or whatever abode it is and over there they have to there's some level of fuel in terms of the aggregates and until that is burnt out they will continue to exist and then from there they become extinguished and the fourth is one with effort meaning they have to make some effort to keep letting go of restlessness and conceit and so on and after After that, they become an arhat, and after that they attain parinibbana. And then there's the final one, which is going up the stream, which is they go through each of the five pure abodes until they attain arhat-ship and are extinguished. Which means just because we say somebody is an anagami, that they are a non-returner and they only have one lifetime, that's not right.

It means that they will not come back to this world of the sense-bases, of sensual desire. So an anagami is anyone who goes into the brahma loka, the first brahma loka onwards, but does not come back. So this goes into the understanding of the anagami. So what is an anagami? If somebody is a stream enterer and they continue to cultivate a practice of jhana, the understanding is their mind will gravitate towards those factors of the at the time of death. And corresponding to those factors, they will take rebirth in that particular brahmaloka. But from there, they are not liable to come back into the world of the senses. So they will move upward until they attain arahatship.

That's basically what it is. So the poking around means that somebody has become an anagami before they died, and then they go to the next realm and become an arahat. And they can still travel around. No, that's what I'm saying. Only if there's fuel left and they're in that abode, they can travel around. But if there's complete extinguishment, then there's nothing in terms of any fuel remaining for them to function, for them to do anything. This leads to what happens after one difference other. Yeah. Yeah. Even if somebody becomes... Will they what? Oh, absolutely. Karma is inescapable. Yeah, karma is the ultimate. Yeah, it's the universal law. It will affect you whether you're awakened or not.

That's why you have the prime example of Moglana. Moglana. He was beaten to death. Because of what? Because of some karma he did many lifetimes ago, which was an unforgivable, not an unforgivable, I mean, it's an immediately effective karma. Killing his own parents in that particular life immediately took him to Avicii hell. But still, a little fragment of that karma was still there, which manifested as him being beaten up to death. As in Arahad. What about Angulimala? Angulimala was also beaten. And he said, what is going on here? And the Buddha said, take it. Just take it. That's a possibility that they're just experiencing that. Only if the causes and conditions are there for that karma to come up.

That's the other thing. They have pretty bad karma. Yeah, that's right. That's pretty bad karma. No, not necessarily. They still have a choice. They still have a choice to say, I shouldn't be doing this. So for them, they will experience at some other time the fruition of that karma. But not necessarily that has to be in that way. That's what I'm saying. They just seem to be there and they were there for the causes and conditions to be there. for that to happen. Perhaps it might have been a different way. Maybe it could have been some birds that would have been plucking out his skin or something. Yeah, of course. This is samsara. It's all so terribly interconnected.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to think about karma in this way. Karma is like different kinds of seeds. Imagine you have an apple seed, an orange seed, and a watermelon seed. By the nature of that seed, it will germinate a certain way and at a certain rate of time. But if one seed had the proper amount of nutrition in the form of proper sunlight, enough water, good enough soil, then it will grow and prosper and come to fruition. It's supposed to germinate a certain way, but not enough sunlight was given to it. The seed that went into the ground, the ground itself was not nutritious enough. There was not enough water being given. That seed will not grow.

It will not come to fruition. The same way, karma will only come to fruition when the proper causes and conditions that are the nutrients are present for it to grow. Absolutely. Even the Buddha has said, when you become a stream-enterer, you have closed off any karma that can take you to the hell realms, that can take you to the lower realms. That's a dilution or a complete elimination of that karma. Loving-kindness. This is also talked about. It's the sutta that's called the conch-blower. When you have loving-kindness and you develop your faculties with this loving-kindness, of that, any karma in terms of negative karma that was produced is diluted. Another example that the Buddha gives is, you put salt water into a cup and you drink it.

It's obviously very salty. But you put that same salt water into gallons of fresh water, the salt is very minimal. The same way. When you develop the paramis, you develop wholesome actions, any negative things that are supposed to come up, if the causes and conditions are there for them to come up, will be less potent when they come to fruition. That's what you have to do. When you say I forgive myself or I forgive you, you say that a few times in your mind and you just wait and let something come up. And then you take the action. And now when you're sending the action of saying I'm letting go, forgiving you and whatever it is.

The second question is, you were talking about not reliving an experience. But sometimes, for example, sometimes when you are forgiving somebody, you need to know what it is you are forgiving exactly. So a face may have come up, but there is some particular experience that Yeah, of course. Of course. What I'm talking about is not to get emotionally involved in that. Not to relive and judge it and say, why did that happen to me? Why did this person do that? And so on. But to identify that you are afraid or this person made you feel this way. It's important, of course. You need to know the content, but not to be involved in the content.

Yes. I find the word I forgive myself very hard to digest it. Even conceptually, I find this very hard for myself. If I shift the word forgive to accept, I accept myself. That's fine. It's the same thing. Because that I find more within my range of... That's fine. Yeah. Forgive seems a very huge big thing as if I'm some criminal who's come out of place. I absolve myself. That's even more deeper. With all my limitations, I accept myself. It seems more to resonate with me. Go for it. Shall we share some merit? Last one. Thank you very much. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu.