MN 43 Mahavedalla Sutta AN3.102 Deep Dhamma

I'm going to be reading Maha Vedalla Sutta, the greater series of questions and answers. Thus have I heard, on one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's park. Then when it was evening, the Venerable Maha Kotthita rose from meditation, went to the Venerable Sariputta and exchanged greetings with him. When this courteous and amiable talk was finished, he sat down at one side and said to the Venerable Sariputta. So this is, as it says, the greater series of questions and answers. This is a dialogue between Mahakotita and Sariputta, two arahats. So you can imagine what the dialogue is going to look like. And the idea is Mahakotita is coming to Sariputta to discuss this, not because he's trying to get any clarification about any of the questions that he's asking.

He's asking the questions the same way you would have now, in today's world, like a fireside chat, where you have two people, two experts talking to one another. And so there's an audience there, and the audience there is Mahakotita's students. One who is unwise, one who is unwise is said, friend, with reference to what is this said, one who is unwise?

And before even that, one who hasn't walked the path by letting go. So one who does not 6R is one who is unwise, right? Because when you 6R, you're walking the path, you're experiencing the cessation of suffering by recognizing the origin of that suffering and letting it go. Every time you use the 6R's, you are cultivating the understanding of the Four Noble Truths.

When a hindrance arises in your mind, in whatever form it might arise, it is suffering. It is dukkha in the mind, experienced as a painful mental feeling. When you recognize that dukkha, you are seeing the first noble truth of suffering in the form of that hindrance. When you release and relax, you let go of the second noble truth, which is the origin of that hindrance. What is the origin of that hindrance in that moment?

Lack of proper attention, lack of mindfulness, inattention or improper attention. Your attention has been diverted from your object of meditation and has gone to the hindrance. And so the attention continues to fuel that hindrance. Your attention continues to fuel the formations that continue to bring up all of these different proto-thoughts or the different forms of hindrances in the mind.

So when you release your attention from that hindrance, you abandon the origin, which is you abandon the attention that was unduly given to the hindrance. And then when you relax, you experience mundane nirvana, you experience the cessation of that hindrance and the cessation of craving, thereby experiencing the third noble truth. When you re-smile and return back to your object in meditation, you are essentially bringing up a wholesome state of mind and sustaining that wholesome state of mind whenever you return back to the object, which means you have dropped the intention of craving, replaced it with the wholesome intention,

right, which includes letting go, which includes non-ill will, which includes non-cruelty. And then with the smile, coming back to the object of meditation. So what are you doing? You've already recognized, which means you have utilized right mindfulness, and you have already used right effort using the rest of the six R's to come back to your object of meditation and therefore have right collectedness.

So using the six R's in that way, you're also cultivating the fourth noble truth of the path. So every time you six R, you are cultivating wisdom bit by bit. How this process works: you are teaching yourself how this process works. Your mind is observing how its attention moves. Saying, "Good friend," the Venerable Maha Kotthita delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then he asked him a further question. One who is wise, one who is wise is said friend, with reference to what is this said, one who is wise. One wisely understands, one wisely understands friend, that is why it is said, one who is wise. What does one wisely understand? One wisely understands this is suffering,

This is the origin of suffering. This is the cessation of suffering. This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. One wisely understands, one wisely understands, friend, that is why it is said, one who is wise. So when we say that one who is wise is somebody who is utilizing the six R's, they're also cultivating wisdom in how their mind works. But more importantly, you can utilize the six R's anytime craving comes up, anytime an underlying tendency comes up, anytime clinging comes up, anytime habitual tendencies come up. So what are you doing? You're doing exactly what the Buddha discussed

In Majjhima Nikaya 9, Sammaditthi Sutta, which is right view. Using the template or framework of the Four Noble Truths and understanding what is present in mind, whether it's in the form of craving, clinging, or becoming, and then letting go of the origin of that, by letting go of any kind of underlying tendency that leads to the craving, or letting go of the craving which leads to the clinging. or letting go of the clinging which leads to the becoming, or habitual tendencies. Or letting go of the habitual tendencies which could lead to the birth of action.

And experiencing the cessation of that link in that moment. Utilizing the path that has been encapsulated in the six R's. And this is how you teach yourself how dependent origination works. by recognizing those links that lead to suffering and letting them go whenever they do arise. So wisdom is seeing the links of dependent origination, understanding the links of dependent origination, not only when it happens, when you have a cessation experience and after that, but also in every moment, every time you recognize any kind of craving, clinging, or becoming.

Consciousness. Consciousness is said, friend, with reference to what is consciousness says. It cognizes. It cognizes, friend. That is why consciousness is said. What does it cognize? It cognizes, this is pleasant. It cognizes, this is painful. It cognizes, this is neither painful nor pleasant. It cognizes, it cognizes, friend. That is why consciousness is said. So here, Mahakotita is asking Sariputta, what is the function of consciousness?

What is consciousness? Nowadays, there is a prevalent view, like it was during the time of the Buddha, that consciousness or awareness is a substratum of creation or a substratum of existence. That everything originates from consciousness. Having this sort of a view, it is difficult to see consciousness as anything other than what it actually is, which is the bare understanding or the awareness of whatever is arising in the case of a feeling or a perception.

As we will see as he talks later, the perception and feeling are tied together, but along with it is conjoined the consciousness, the awareness of what it is that is being experienced. That's all consciousness is, and the function of consciousness is to shed light on what is being experienced. So, you can think about consciousness as the spotlight.

And you can think about the directionality of where that spotlight is going as attention, manasikara, and what it is putting light on is the experience in the form of either painful, pleasant, or neither painful nor pleasant. That's the way to look at it. Wisdom and consciousness, friend, are these states conjoined or disjoint, and is it possible to separate each of these states from the other in order to describe the difference between them?

Wisdom, that is the understanding of how this process works. And consciousness, the awareness of something, go hand in hand. In order for you to understand something, you need to have consciousness. And when you have consciousness, you understand something. It's as simple as that. So when we say wisely understand what's going on, consciousness is intertwined within the understanding of what is arising. When you see the links of dependent origination, there is a reflective consciousness that understands what is arising in the form of the contact feeling and any other states that arise

in terms of when you see it post-cessation. In other words, when there is contact, that is the empty, signless, and undirected contact with the nirvana element, that gives rise to a feeling. Dependent upon that feeling, there is a consciousness that arises with it, that knows that this is what is being experienced. So, any time you have an insight, tied to that insight is an awareness.

That's the only way insights can be comprehended, is through the utility and function of cognition and consciousness. And the other way to look at consciousness is that it is a function of mindfulness and attention. When we look at the spotlight, the spotlight itself is consciousness, and the direction in which it goes, the other directionality, is the attention. If you are not paying attention, then that spotlight is not on something, and therefore you have no wisdom about what is arising. But as soon as you pay attention with yoniso manasikara, with proper attention, as soon as you have mindfulness that remains unmuddled and is aware of what is happening in that moment, then wisdom can arise because the consciousness flows

Through that attention and mindfulness. And so when we talk about mindfulness as being remembering to observe how mind's attention moves from one object to the other, what are we saying? There is an awareness of how that attention moves. In essence, what this is, is metacognition. Not the cognition of meta, that is loving-kindness. Metacognition in terms of the cognition of cognizing, the awareness of awareness itself.

So when you meditate, there is a tendency for the meditator to become the meditation. When you meditate, there's the idea that I am experiencing loving-kindness, or I am generating this loving-kindness. There is the idea in your mind that I am the one going through this jhana, or I am the one experiencing sloth and torpor. If you just change it a little bit in terms of how you see it, you can say there is loving-kindness present in the mind.

There is equanimity present in the mind. Mind is watching mind. There is sloth and torpor present in the mind. In that shift in perception, now instead of becoming the movie, you are watching the movie. You are observing how mind remains meditating. You are observing how mind is going in the first jhana, or in the second jhana. You are not going in the first jhana; you are observing how mind is going in the first jhana. And then the question arises: who is it that is watching the mind go in the first jhana? I already know you guys are going to ask that question. It is the function of mindfulness itself. There is no I watching it. The issue that happens is that there's a projection of an observer as an I, as a me, as a myself, that is dependent upon the formations of conceit that take the observer as the one watching the mind meditating.

But in reality, it's like the mirror is consciousness, and there is a reflection of what is going on. And the problem is the mirror takes itself to be the reflection. And as soon as the mirror takes itself to be the reflection, it loses its functionality in terms of what's going on. Now it's confused. What is real and what is unreal? What is the reflection and what is it that is being reflected? But the mirror's function is just to reflect.

There comes a point when you let go of that also, and there is non-reflective awareness. This is called anidassanam vinnanam. This is where the mind or consciousness is non-manifestive. It doesn't cling to anything. It doesn't project anything of a sense of self, of this is me, this is mine, this is myself. It just remains there as consciousness, as an awareness.

Not dependent upon any sense of self as me, mine, or myself. Just pure reflection. And this is experienced, very closely experienced, when you are in the signless collectedness of mind. Because there is no object for the mind to reflect on. There's no object for there to be any kind of reflection. It's just the mirror functioning as it is without any kind of sense of self.

So the signless awareness of mind is as close as you can get to the anidassanam vinnanam. So now, Mahakotthita asks the question, "Wisdom and consciousness, are these states conjoined or disjoined?" Are these states, can you describe or can you separate each of these states from the other in order to describe the difference between the two? And Sariputta gives this answer that wisdom and consciousness are conjoined. But listen to the next question. Then he asks, then what is the difference between wisdom and consciousness, these states that are conjoined, not disjoined? The difference, friend, between wisdom and consciousness, these states that are conjoined, not disjoined, is this.

Wisdom is to be developed. Consciousness is to be fully understood. So what is the function of wisdom? He just said it. The function of wisdom is to understand, right? And the function of consciousness is to cognize. So what is wisdom? Wisdom is understanding what is cognizing. So what is cognizing is consciousness as a link of dependent origination, as a function of the links of dependent origination, and as an aggregate.

Wisdom is that which understands what that link is in reality, which is that it is impermanent because it is conditionally arisen, therefore impermanent, liable to cause dukkha, and therefore not me, not mine, not myself. So wisdom is to be developed, and consciousness is to be understood. How do you understand consciousness? Through wisdom. How do you develop wisdom? By being aware.

Feeling. Feeling is said, friend, with reference to what is feeling said. It feels. It feels, friend. That is why feeling is said. What does it feel? It feels pleasure. It feels pain. It feels neither pain nor pleasure. It feels. It feels, friend. That is why feeling is said. Now when we talk about feeling as that which feels, what is he talking about here?

He's talking about the faculty of feeling that is present in mentality, materiality. Remember a few days ago we talked about the components of mentality. One of them is the faculty of feeling, which is the instrument through which feeling can be understood. This is a painful feeling, a pleasant feeling, or a neutral feeling. In the same way that a brain has different functionalities, right, different lobes that have different functions, feeling as a faculty in nama-rupa, in mentality, materiality, is that which experiences the process of feeling. So there is the faculty of feeling, which is an object or which is a thing in the mind, or as possessed in the mind, and there is feeling, which is the function of that faculty, which is the one that is experiencing the feeling. So the faculty of feeling is in nama-rupa, and the process, the function, the verb of actually feeling, is the link of feeling down after contact arises. Yeah, it's interesting, because they use vedana for both sides.

Vedana in terms of the process of feeling, and vedana in terms of the faculty for feeling. So, you could call it an ayatana, just for the ability to understand what we're saying here in terms of the faculty, that it's a base. Yeah. Perception. Perception is said, friend. With reference to what is perception said? It perceives. It perceives, friend. That is why perception is said. What does it perceive? It perceives blue. It perceives yellow. It perceives red, and it perceives white. It perceives. It perceives, friend. That is why perception is said. So again, we have the base of perception, which is in nama, and then we have the function or process of perception that is conjoined to the process of vedana, of feeling, after contact.

And what is perception? Sanna. What is sanna? What is perception? Perception is rooted in memory. It recognizes what is being experienced. The example would be, a child goes to the stove that has a fire, and they put their hand on top of the fire. Immediately they feel a warm sensation. So that is the feeling of it being warm.

And there's a cognition that it is warm. There's the awareness that it is warm. If they stay there longer or the fire gets hotter, it feels unbearably hot, and that is a painful feeling. Now, that feeling and that cognition are present, but there's a perception that it feels unbearably hot. The next time that child goes to that same stove fire, they will be cautious. Because their perception of fire is too much fire, and it can become too hot.

That is their perception, rooted in the memory, the painful memory of the painful feeling of it being unbearably hot. When you were a child in school, in kindergarten or first grade, you learned about colors. This is the color red, this is the color blue. You were told about it, and then you recognized later on, oh yes, that's the color red, that's the color blue. That is to say, if you're not colorblind, of course.

But even when it comes to musical notes, if you're a musician, you can perceive the note by just listening to it. Like if you're playing the piano, and I play the C note, you can recognize that that's the C note because you've heard it before, and now it's stored in your memory. And whenever you hear it from that memory, the perception that this is the sound of C arises in conjunction with the feeling itself. When you start to study about different kinds of animals, let's say you study about different kinds of ants. There's red ants, and there's black ants, and there's these kinds of ants, and you study about them. So that is the feeling of it, the learning of it.

So perception is rooted in learning and memory. Then, when you see a certain ant, your mind immediately projects that this is the kind of ant I'm seeing. This is a red ant. Because your mind has already felt it before, experienced it before. And in that memory, it immediately brings it up and says, I perceive this as a red ant.

So the feeling is the experience. The cognition is the awareness of the experience. And the perception is noting or naming what that experience is. Even saying that this experience or this feeling is pleasant, painful, or neutral is the perception of it. So sometimes when you're meditating, you might sense or you might notice the mind is giving a commentary, a non-verbal commentary, of "I'm experiencing this now." "Oh, now I am in this jhana." "Oh, now there's a rising loving-kindness." What is that that's going on? That is perception, the recognizing of what is being experienced.

If you're cognizing something, there is a feeling and perception tied to it. If you're perceiving something, it's because you have felt and become aware of something. If you are experiencing something, it's because you are aware and perceiving the quality of that feeling or experience. Friend, what can be known by purified mind consciousness released from the five faculties? Friend, by purified mind consciousness released from the five faculties, the base of infinite space can be known thus: space is infinite. The base of infinite consciousness can be known thus: consciousness is infinite. And the base of nothingness can be known thus: there is nothing. In other words, purified mind consciousness. What does that mean, purified mind consciousness?

Mind consciousness, that is, purified of the five hindrances. None of the five hindrances are present, so that mind consciousness is now experiencing or is being aware of a jhanic state of mind, free of the hindrances. And released from the five faculties, what are the five faculties? The five physical faculties, that is the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, and the body. In other words, now you have gone from a rupa jhana to a rupa jhana. That is why that mind consciousness can be aware of infinite space, infinite consciousness and nothingness.

However, neither perception nor non-perception, being the way it is, because it's neither perception nor non-perception, there is no full consciousness there. Because remember, what is tied to perception is both feeling and consciousness. So the mental feeling or the mental perception is very hazy. And so there's no full comprehension, full cognition of what is arising in neither perception nor non-perception.

But it is still purified mind consciousness that is present in that state of neither perception nor non-perception. and it is not the same mind consciousness it keeps arising and passing away dependent upon the object of meditation within that process which in this case is both the dimensions of infinite space infinite consciousness nothingness and neither perception non-perception and the mind itself or let's say the object in this case it could be compassion Tied to infinite space, it can be empathetic joy, tied to infinite consciousness, it could be equanimity, tied to nothingness, or it could be quiet mind, being aware of mind itself, the pabhasarachitta, the luminous, radiant mind that is present in the state of neither perception or non-perception.

Friend, with what does one understand a state that can be known? Friend, one understands a state that can be known with the eye of wisdom. What is the eye of wisdom? The panna chakkhu, the eye of wisdom. It's a very interesting term or phrase, the eye of wisdom. It's really talking about mindfulness. The eye of wisdom is cultivated through mindfulness, and when you have the eye of wisdom, you have perfect mindfulness. So mindfulness is tied to wisdom, or helps bring up wisdom, and is tied to consciousness or cognition and awareness.

So the eye of wisdom here is really synonymous with mindfulness, and the function of mindfulness, right, is to pay attention. To pay attention to what, how attention moves itself, and what is that equipped with awareness? So you're seeing these interconnections going on, these intertwining things going on. Mindfulness, attention and consciousness, they interplay between them in order for wisdom to arise. And when the eye of wisdom is developed, mindfulness is perfected, which means you are always attentive of what is going on. What is it that person said five seconds ago? What is it that that person said 10 seconds ago? What was the question that was being asked, or what was the statement that was being given?

Being completely present in every moment, without the sense of "I", is the purpose of wisdom. In other words, proper attention. Yoniso manasikara. Friend, what is the purpose of wisdom? The purpose of wisdom, friend, is direct knowledge. Its purpose is full understanding. Its purpose is abandoning. So what is the purpose of mindfulness? What is the purpose of proper attention? What is the purpose of yoniso manasikara? It is direct knowledge. What does direct knowledge mean here? Direct knowledge of cessation of suffering. Full understanding. What is full understanding here? Full understanding of dukkha, of suffering.

Abandoning. What is abandoning? Abandoning the factors that lead to suffering: craving, conceit, ignorance, wrong views. Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view? This is very interesting. Kotthita is just asking in a very systematic way, because as soon as you do the prior things that he just mentioned, direct knowledge, the full understanding and abandoning, you come to right view. So it's implied that right view has come about. So then he's asking, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?

Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another, and wise attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view. What does that mean? The voice of another. The voice of another can be the Buddha or any of the teachers who teach Dhamma. In other words, listening to the Dhamma, being introduced to the Dhamma, being told that there is right view. That's one level of ignorance gone, which is now you've been introduced to the fact that there is something known as the Four Noble Truths. And then wise attention, yoniso manasikara, which helps you cultivate the Four Noble Truths.

when it arises as a result and benefit of ceto vimutti, deliverance of mind, and panna vimutti, deliverance by wisdom? What does this mean, deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom? Ceto vimutti means the mind goes through the first four jhanas and then the ayatanas and then cessation, and experiences some kind of wisdom arising from that. Panna vimutti means the mind goes through just the four jhanas and, from one of those four jhanas, experiences wisdom.

Yes, that's right. Look on YouTube. Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation. Serenity and insight. Samatha and vipassana. The yoking of these leads to the cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness. But you also need to learn first and foremost what is right view, what is wrong view, and what is right view. What are the wrong factors and the right factors? You have to be able to discuss that. Upon all of that is a mind that is clear, and the only way the mind is clear is when it's free of hindrances, and the only way it's free of hindrances is when the mind keeps its precepts. So in these five factors, sila, samadhi and panna are all wrapped together in a nice little bow.

And from there, because you have right view as the input, right, in going into cessation, when you come out and experience nibbana, what comes out? The established right view and full experiential understanding of the Four Noble Truths. Friend, how many kinds of being are there? There are these three kinds of being, friend: sense-sphere being, fine-material being, and immaterial being. What is sense-sphere being? Any of the hell realms, all the way up to the sixth sensual heavens. Remember, these can also be psychological states. What is material being or fine-material being? These are the rupa lokas, the brahma lokas, the first, second, third and fourth brahma lokas, or the first, second, third and fourth jhanas. What are the immaterial beings?

These are the arupa states, the arupa lokas: the base of infinite space, the base of infinite consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither perception nor non-perception. Friend, how is renewal of being in the future generated? How does one come to be? How is there becoming? How is there future existence that arises? Friend, renewal of being in the future is generated through delighting in this and that, on the part of beings who are hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.

When an intention, that is to say formations, or any intention, has craving in it and is hindered by ignorance due to lack of mindfulness, then that mind will automatically crave, cling and become. Once you let go of ignorance and craving altogether, then there won't be the possibility of future arising, future renewal of being. Because there won't be any delighting in this and that. There won't be taking personal this or that, that I like this or I don't like this or I am this.

Then when the identification process goes, once craving is gone, once ignorance is gone, then that's it. That is the end of suffering, right? Birth is destroyed. Birth of new action is destroyed. There is no coming to new being, no more renewal of being. But that means you have to purify your formations. And the only way you purify your formations is by cultivating right intention.

What does it mean to cultivate right intention? Nekkhamma, letting go of what the mind perceives as me, mine, or myself. Or in other words, letting go of the attitude that this belongs to me, that this is mine, this is myself, or that this is me. Cultivating non-ill will, or loving-kindness. Cultivating non-cruelty, or compassion. When you have right intention, then the mind lets go of craving bit by bit, lets go of ignorance bit by bit, and then eventually lets go of it completely. And any new formations that arise, or any further formations that arise, are pure, because they are purified of any kind of ignorance and craving.

When those formations are pure, any intention or inclination that arises always automates towards the Dhamma. There, in that mind, its intentions are automatically right intention. In that mind, its speech, action and effort are spontaneously right speech, right action and right effort, and it always has right mindfulness and is able to get into right concentration immediately, because there's nothing hindering the mind to go there. Pure intention, and for that reason it creates no new karma. And when there's no new karma, there is no renewal of being, no more renewed existence.

Friend, what is the first jhana? Here, a bhikkhu, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. This is called the first jhana. By now, all of you know this, right? Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, right? Closing your eyes, centering the mind, making it steady, relaxing.

Secluded from unwholesome states, six-arring any kind of hindrance that arises. One enters upon and abides the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought bringing up an object and staying with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. When the mind is free of hindrances, it feels relief, and from that relief there is joy and happiness. Friend, how many factors does the first jhana have? Friend, the first jhana has five factors. Here, when a bhikkhu has entered upon the first jhana, there occur applied thought, sustained thought, rapture, pleasure, and unification of mind.

That is how the first jhana has five factors. What is unification of mind? Cittekaggata. Ekaggata is usually translated as one-pointed, and citta here is mind, but ekaggata is really about the mind being collected, the attention being non-dispersed. In other words, when we use that analogy of the satellite orbiting around the planet, the gravitational field is collected around the earth, and the satellite just follows that pattern, the gravitational field.

The attention remains undispersed, the attention remains unified, the attention remains steady. It doesn't become one point. The satellite doesn't become the earth, right? One-pointed would mean the mind makes a lot of effort and just goes into that one object. As soon as you do that, what happens? You lose the picture of what is around you, right? You take your finger and you look all the way at the finger, and you're not seeing anything but the finger, but there's all this stuff around. As soon as your mind is resting in a unified awareness that is collected and the attention is undispersed or non-dispersed, then it's able to see, at any point, a hindrance arises.

The seeing of a hindrance as it arises is also insight. Arising is also part of vipassana. So unification of mind is actually related to samatha, to serenity, to tranquility, to being collected. But in order for the vipassana to arise, in order for the insight to arise of what is arising, there needs to be proper attention. That is through the unification of mind. If the mind became one-pointed, then there is no space for the mind to be aware of what's around. But if the mind is open, there's enough space for the mind to have insight or clarity or vipassana into what is arising, even if that's a hindrance, and being able to then let that go, and if that's an enlightenment factor, or anything that might arise in the mind.

Friend, how many factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and how many factors are possessed? Friend, in the first jhana, five factors are abandoned, and five factors are possessed. Here, when a bhikkhu has entered upon the first jhana, sensual desire is abandoned, ill will is abandoned, sloth and torpor are abandoned, restlessness and remorse are abandoned, and doubt is abandoned, and there occur applied thought, sustained thought, rapture, pleasure, and unification of mind.

Now, of these five faculties, each having a separate field, a separate domain, not experiencing each other's field and domain, what is their resort, what experiences their fields and domains? Now, this is very interesting. What he's saying is, he's coming out of the assumption that the eye can only see, the ear can only hear, the nose can only smell, the tongue can only taste, the body can only feel or touch. But the eye cannot listen to a sound, the ear cannot see a color, the nose can't smell a sight, and so on and so forth. However, we do have something called synesthesia. But even if you have something called synesthesia, you're still experiencing it through one of those five faculties.

Even if you say this paper looks spicy, or this sound sounds red? Even if you say that, you're still experiencing it through any of these faculties. The interpretation is different because of synesthesia, and that is dependent upon the mind and how it's taking it in, and that's where the answer is. He's asking, what does it resort to? What is their resort? What experiences these sense bases?

Mind is chief, mind is the forerunner of all states. Friend, as to these five faculties, that is the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, and the body faculty, what do these five faculties stand in dependence upon, what are they dependent upon? Friend, as to these five faculties, that is the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, and the body faculty, these five faculties stand in dependence upon, or dependent upon, vitality. What is vitality? We'll come to that soon. Friend, what does vitality stand in dependence on?

What is vitality dependent on? Vitality stands in dependence on heat. So what is vitality? Vitality comes from the word jivitindriya, the life faculty. And what is the heat, that is tejo, or also ushna? So I would say you could think about the life faculty as basically the electrical activity that runs throughout the nervous system that allows the functionality of these five faculties to run, but for the nervous system to work properly you need proper cellular metabolism, and so you could say that heat is metabolism. So you have the electrical activity of the nervous system as vitality, and you have metabolism as the function of heat in the body.

Then he asks, "What does vitality stand in dependence upon?" He says, "Vitality stands in dependence on heat." And what does heat stand in dependence on? Vitality. Friend, just now we understood the Venerable Sariputta to have said, "Vitality stands in dependence on heat," and now we understand him to say, "Heat stands in dependence on vitality."

How should the meaning of these statements be regarded? In that case, friend, I shall give you a simile. For some wise men here understand the meaning of a statement by means of a simile. Just as when an oil lamp is burning, if you've ever seen an oil lamp burning, you see the flame, its radiance. You can see some radiance shining if you look carefully, and you can actually see different colors around in that radiance.

Is seen in dependence on the flame itself? In order for you to see that radiance, you need a flame. And its radiance, or I should say its flame, is seen in dependence on its radiance. You can't see the flame without the radiance around it. That's allowing you to see the flame. So too, vitality stands in dependence on heat, and heat stands in dependence on vitality.

The life faculty is dependent upon heat, and heat, in order for it to actually be present, requires the life faculty. Friend, are vital formations things that can be felt, or are vital formations one thing and things that can be felt another? Vital formations, friends, that is ayu sankharas, are not things that can be felt. If ayu sankharas or vital formations were things that can be felt, then a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling would not be seen to emerge from it. Very interesting.

Because vital formations are one thing and things that can be felt another, a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling and consciousness can be seen to emerge from it. So what are vital formations? Ayu sankharas, that determine the longevity of the body, that have to do with whatever is happening in the body in terms of its functionality, related to heat and vitality.

Related to metabolism in the body. Related to digestion. Related to telomere activity. Related to all kinds of things that the mind itself cannot directly perceive. Sometimes you can perceive the process of digestion through hunger, that the body is hungry, because you feel it, and all of these other things. However, the mind isn't able to perceive what's going on at the cellular level unless it looks really closely.

And so those functions happen at one level, and the functions of seeing things or experiencing things through the sense faculties happen through another. The vital formations give rise to the functioning of organs and all kinds of cells and the nervous system in one way or the other. And the mental formations give the functioning of what the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, and the body, and the mind itself can feel and perceive. So these are two different things.

In cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness, what ceases are the three formations, the three types of formations. The bodily formations that have to do with inhalation and exhalation and other functions of the body, like movement and things like that. The verbal formations that have to do with thinking and expressing in speech. And the mental formations that allow you to feel and perceive through the sixth sense base.

These cease, but while they're ceased in cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness, the vital formations continue, right? That's why you put somebody under an MRI or all of these different sensors while they're in cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness; they will still trace some kind of bodily functions going on, in terms of skin conductivity and some kind of heart rate and some kind of blood pressure and so on and so forth.

But in terms of what's happening in the mind, in terms of feeling and perception, in terms of expression of speech, in terms of moving around, that all ceases in cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness. To the extent that even when you're asleep, even when you are sitting in meditation, even when you think you're still, the eyes move around just a little bit. But in cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness, the eyes are absolutely still.

Everything is absolutely still in that sense. You had a question? Could the breath be considered in some ways a vital formation? Is it happening on its own? That's where it gets a little hazy, because when we talk about breathing as a function, that's being done through, basically, the nervous system, related to vital formations. But here, we say bodily formations have to do with the inhalation and exhalation, possibly due to intentionally inhaling and intentionally exhaling. In other words, controlling the breath.

That could be seen in one way. Yes, that's right. So that's what I'm saying. It's reflection first, that's the vicara, reflection. In other words, vitakka and vicara are bringing up the object of meditation and then reflecting upon it. In this case, vitakka and vicara is thinking about something, reflecting about it, and making the intention to speak, or making the intention to express it in some way. Or you could say the speech is a result of the vitakka and vicara. It's saying applied and sustained thought in here. Yes, but you can also have thinking and examining thought. I don't know which version I have, it looks a little old, but anyway. Friend, what, when this body is bereft of how many states is it then discarded and forsaken, left lying senseless like a log?

Friend, when this body is bereft of three states, vitality, heat, and consciousness, it is then discarded and forsaken, left lying senseless like a log. In other words, a corpse. Friend, what is the difference between one who is dead and who has completed his time, and a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness? This question was asked earlier.

Friend, in the case of one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat has been dissipated. That's why when you look at a corpse, it's very interesting. Sometimes when you see a corpse, there's still a little bit of electrical activity, so sometimes it looks like the corpse is moving, but it's still not alive. But when you feel the corpse, even after a few minutes, you start to feel the heat leaving, right? The warmth of the corpse is gone, or the body is gone, we should say.

And his faculties are fully broken up. In other words, now there is no connection made in terms of the mind, because the mind has gone from there, and in these five physical sense bases there's a disconnection now. So they're broken up, there's no functionality going on at all. Yes, yes, they are the life faculty. Yes, but here when you talk about ayu, you're talking about longevity or life itself. There's no more life expression going on here, no more life energy going on. Yes, yes, and of course, usna being heat.

In the case of a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness, his bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided. But his vitality is not exhausted, meaning he's still alive. His heat has not been dissipated, which means that there is still some kind of metabolic activity going on. And his faculties become exceptionally clear. This is what I was talking about earlier, right? When you are in cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness, there is no sensory impingement on the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body. All of the signals are completely clear, because they're cleared of any kind of, or I should say, the reception is completely clear.

There's no traffic jam going on. The road is completely clear. Not even one iota of sensory impact going on in any of these five physical sense bases. So they're exceptionally clear, but they're still connected to mind. It's just that there's nothing going on through that connection. So why did quotations go from the first jhana to the mirror in the summer, but the jhana is going to the second, third, or anything? Let me make sure that's how we have it. Yes, because if you see the first jhana, really he's talking about how do you start to get into jhana. And then everything else after that is a natural progression. The second, the third, the fourth, it's like using that same simile of the water going down from the mountain, streaming down to the gullies and so on.

Once you're in the first jhana, your mind will naturally progress through the second jhana once it lets go of any thinking and examining thought, because now it has self-confidence in it. Once it's in the second jhana, after a while, just because of the fact that the contents or conditions of that second jhana are impermanent, the joy fades away, and then you're naturally in the third jhana, and then naturally in the fourth jhana, once the sukha fades away. And of course, he did talk about the ayatanas earlier in terms of the mind consciousness.

But again, cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness can be experienced from the first jhana onwards. It doesn't have to happen all the way through the first eight and then cessation, but it can happen from the first jhana onwards. So that cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness is never in Nibbana? Right. But it is what allows for the experience in Nibbana to occur, let's say. Is that the Nibbana of the sotapannas or the Nibbana of the arahants? Both. It can be both in one way, and it could be one in the other way. So there can be only one cessation of proficiency in the unconscious? Right. Are cessation and nirvana injoined? Your line of question has gone too far, that's good, sir.

That's from another sutta, but I'll get to that later. Actually, I want to try one thing here. Yes. So there's no sensory input in the cessation, it's like the road, there's no car, it's totally empty, but the road is still in there. That's right, exactly. The road is gone. That's right. Good way, good way of putting it.

So that shows you that the cessation is not enough, it's just that there's nothing out there. No conditions present, that's all, because there's no contact happening. When you have contact, that is a sensory impingement from the light hitting the eyes. That's not happening in cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness. No sound waves are making contact with the ear, and there's no registration of that happening, so there's no sensory impingement. They're not being felt and perceived by the mind. That's right, so yes, and the connection between the five faculties and the mind is exceptionally clear. There's no data going in, there's no sensory data there, so it's completely wiped out. Yeah, yeah. Is it what you're saying, completely what's removed, or the mind disconnects from them? You know, yes, it's disconnected completely, but what is still there is the vitality and heat, which allows them to be functional, or potentially functional.

If the vitality and heat were not present, and the mind is disconnected, which in the case of death, then there is no possibility of them re-arising again. Can this heat be felt by someone else, so that they don't call 911? Yes, yes, it can. Yes, well, it's very diminished, let's say. Yes, but it should be, generally. So, is it both in Nibbana and in cessation, that when you come back online, there's the experience of very clear vision, very clear hearing, very quick smell? Right.

Is it fair to say, because of that disconnection, that you actually rest the mind? That's right. It has complete rest, absolutely no traffic at all, no traffic at all. So that's why when you come out, your faculties being exceptionally clear, you have this, the greens are much greener, the blues are much bluer, and the sounds are much more potent, and so on. In what cessation, yes? You're not aware, but you're aware after cessation? Yes, it could be for a moment, but it has been timed. I'll explain that. There have been people who have experienced cessation by listening to some meditation, which at some point David will probably play, and in listening to that they said, my mind went away. I was listening to this word and my mind went away, and then it came back on and it was saying something else. So they went back to remember what was that in the meditation, and they said it was at this point, like something happened. I don't know, like I just heard that last word,

and it was at this point I heard this word, and that measurement was a minute and 20 seconds. So it can vary from a few seconds to even up to a minute, up to a minute or two minutes. So what's the difference between cessation and sloth and torpor? In one case you're very radiant and bright, and in another case you're very dense and heavy.

Why is it then called samapatti if it's just one second? So that's different. There is nirodha and there's nirodha samapatti. So nirodha is the experience that somebody has when they go through this process and then they come out and experience Nibbana. Nirodha samapatti is somebody who can intentionally go into nirodha. Samapatti means the attainment, or the accomplishment, the achievement. You've unlocked the achievement in the game of life to be able to go into nirodha. Up to seven days.

Anywhere from a couple of seconds up to seven days. So six senses are dependent on nama-rupa. Do you get scared to interpret that in this discussion also, as our six senses face in cessation, with the cessation of nama-rupa? Well, with the cessation of consciousness, there is the cessation of nama-rupa. So the functionalities of any kind of contact, feeling, perception, intention, and attention also cease. And the sixth sense base also ceases. Absolutely.

With that whole one cessation, there's a whole cessation of the rest of the links. All right, I'm almost done, guys. Once I finish, we can ask the questions here. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness. Just to recap, what is the difference?

In death, there is no vitality. There is no heat. And the sense faculties, or the five faculties, are broken up. There's no more connection. Oh, there's a turtle there. He's come to listen. By the time this talk is over, he'll be late. It's like, what happened? So coming back again. So there the sense faculties are broken up, and in cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness, there is still heat, there is still vitality, and the sense faculties are exceptionally clear. The connection between the mind and the sense faculties have been disconnected in the sense that the mind ceases, but the heat and vitality continue to let them be potentially functional.

No impingement going on. Friend, how many conditions are there for the attainment of the neither painful nor pleasant deliverance of mind? Friend, there are four conditions for the attainment of the neither painful nor pleasant deliverance of mind. What does that mean? Fourth jhana. Here, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither pain nor pleasure, and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. These are the four conditions for the attainment of the neither painful nor pleasant deliverance of mind.

Friend, how many conditions are there for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind? Friend, there are two conditions for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs, and attention to the signless element. These are the two conditions for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs, no object being taken anywhere.

And attention to the signless element. What does that mean? The signless element. Mind itself. Friend, how many conditions are there for the persistence of the signless deliverance of mind? Friend, there are three conditions for the persistence of the signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs, attention to the signless element, and the prior determination of its duration. In other words, this is also an attainment. The same way Nirodha Samapatti allows you to be in cessation for up to seven days. You can be in the signless collectedness of mind for up to seven days. You can be in neither perception nor non-perception for up to seven days, and so on, so forth, for each of the jhanas and ayatanas.

You can be in any of the jhanas for up to seven days according to the suttas. Friend, how many conditions are there for emergence from the signless deliverance of mind? Friend, there are two conditions for emergence from the signless deliverance of mind. What do you think it is? Attention to all signs and non-attention to the signless element. In other words, mind no longer looks at itself and takes something else as an object.

These are the two conditions for emergence from the signless deliverance of mind. Friend, the immeasurable deliverance of mind, the deliverance of mind through nothingness, the deliverance of mind through voidness, and the signless deliverance of mind. Are these states different in meaning and different in name, or are they one in meaning and different only in name? Friend, the immeasurable deliverance of mind, the deliverance of mind through nothingness, the deliverance of mind through voidness, and the signless deliverance of mind. There is a way in which these states are different in meaning and different in name, and there is a way in which they are one in meaning and different in name. So in other words, these different deliverances that we talk about, there is a way in which they point to the same experience, and there is a way in which they point out to different experiences.

And what, friend, is the deliverance of mind through nothingness? Here, with the complete surmounting of the base of infinite consciousness, aware that there is nothing, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness. This is called the deliverance of mind through nothingness. So being in the base of nothingness is also the deliverance of mind through nothingness. And what, friend, is the deliverance of mind through voidness or emptiness, sunyata? Here a bhikkhu gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, reflects thus: this is empty or void of a self or of what belongs to a self. So in other words, you reflect on different conditions: the six sense bases, the six sense base objects, the five aggregates, and so on.

This is not me, this is not mine, this is not myself. You contemplate in this way. And this is called the deliverance of mind through voidness. When you do this, when you see that this is void of any kind of self in any of these conditioned experiences, actually that state of mind is basically going into nothingness, because you're basically going into total equanimity when you do that, and tied to that is the experience of the base of nothingness. And what, friend, is the signless deliverance of mind? Here, with non-attention to all signs, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the signless concentration of mind. That's what we were talking about earlier. This is called the signless deliverance of mind.

So anytime you go into the signless collectedness of mind, you have signless deliverance of mind. This is the way in which these states are different in meaning and different in name. And what, friend, is the way in which these states are one in meaning and different only in name? Listen carefully. Lust is a maker of measurement. Hate is a maker of measurement.

Because lust is a maker of measurement, hate is a maker of measurement, delusion is a maker of measurement. Why? Because it results in mana, in conceit. Mana also means to compare and to measure something. When that is gone, then that mind is fully liberated, fully delivered, and is experiencing the immeasurable deliverance of mind, because there is no more measuring going on.

Now, that unshakable deliverance of mind is void or empty of lust, void or empty of hate, void or empty of delusion. Hate is a something. It's a quality of the mind. Delusion. Greed, hatred, and delusion. Lust is a quality of the mind. Hate is a quality of the mind. Delusion is a quality of the mind. It's present as something to be experienced in the mind.

But when these three are destroyed, uprooted, and the taints are destroyed, then that mind experiences nothing in the form of greed, hatred, and delusion. And therefore, it's experiencing the ultimate deliverance of mind through nothingness. Lust is a maker of signs. Hate is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs. In a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so that they are no longer subject to future arising.

Of all the kinds of signless deliverance of mind, the unshakable deliverance of mind is pronounced the best. Now that unshakable deliverance of mind is void of lust, void of hate, void of delusion. This is the way in which these states are one in meaning and different only in name. So lust is a maker of signs, hate is a maker of signs, and delusion is a maker of signs. In what way? When there is greed, there is also an object of greed. When there is hatred, there is also an object of hatred. When there is delusion, there is also an object of delusion. As soon as greed, hatred, and delusion are gone, all objects are seen for what they actually are.

Not me, not mine, not myself. And so the ultimate signless deliverance of mind is basically the mind of one who is fully liberated. And they are also void in the sense that it is empty of any greed, hatred, and delusion. So these deliverances of mind are really pointing out to that mind of an arahant, one who has done what had to be done. Yes, akuppa cetovimutti, unshakable deliverance of mind. That is what the Venerable Sariputta said. The Venerable Maha Kothita was satisfied and delighted in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Now, does anybody have any questions? Can someone listen to a talk and be in the second jhana? Yes. Yes, but they can still be in the second jhana and still experience listening.

They might not be able to fully understand or comprehend what's going on. But actually, if you think about it, in the Abhassara Loka, so the first jhana is the Brahma Loka, and the second jhana is the Abhassara Loka. There, there are some beings, a category of beings, who have some level of vitakka and vichara. They're very minute, very faint. If you go into the Book of Cosmology, or go into seeing the different beings, one of them you'll see is they actually have some level of it. It's very faint, however.

Yeah? On the topic of beings, like in the Brahma Loka, it says that they are in the category of material beings, but from our perspective, wouldn't they seem immaterial and non-physical? No, they are still physical. They still have some kind of luminous form. That's how it's understood, like a forced ghost. I know you would understand what that is. My other question is about synesthesia, and because you mentioned it, I was curious whether some kind of synesthesia is like a naturally developed superhuman thing, like it just happens. I haven't come across anyone doing that, or the idea that it might be the arising of a superhuman state, but that doesn't mean that it's not possible.

There you go. Okay, right. No, well, anesthesia would mean no sensing at all. Now that's another question. What is the difference between one who is in cessation and one who is under the influence of anesthesia? That's right, there you go, that's basically it. He said the question is, what is the difference between one under the influence of anesthesia and one who is in cessation? In the case of one who is in cessation, it was prior, it's developed, meaning somebody makes the intention and goes under a cessation through the process of development.

And the other, which is anesthesia, is basically it's injected into you. So some people do surgery, some people who are in meditation, and maybe they're in one of the cessations. Yeah, you can. You can go into the fourth jhana and somebody can do surgery on you. On the drink now. That's right. Each jhana is a cessation, so but the fourth jhana is pretty good because you have less bodily contact. Now the best would be just to go under cessation and you can just do a full surgery or whatever you need to do. I'd kind of like to re-ask the question I asked earlier about the cessation and nirvana being conjoined. Specifically, I was referring to the intentional attainment of cessation and then the nirvana.

What would those two be considered? So the question is, is cessation and Nibbana conjoined, or are they conjoined, and? Conjoined to Nibbana. So is Nirodha and Nibbana conjoined, and is Nirodha Samapatti and Nibbana conjoined? When you use the word conjoined, what do you mean? I mean, well, that's another way. Is it inevitable? Is it inevitable that one who experiences the intentional attainment of cessation is inevitably going to experience Nibbana on the other side?

No. Not necessarily. Because there are those who can go through the attainment of Nirodha Samapatti, which is intentionally going into cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness, and still not experience Nibbana. I just want to ask with one other way. Prior to Arahana or Hanukami, I guess, prior to that state that you just described, would they then be practically enough? First of all, the understanding is anyone who can attain the cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness by will or intentionally going into it, is probably more than a Sakadagami. In fact, the Suttas say it's basically available to the last two paths.

Yeah, your question was? Because they're lacking wisdom, you said. Oh, yeah. Is that why the cessation alone is not Nibbana? Because coming out of the cessation and then reflecting on it, and then letting go, greed, hatred, and delusion must happen. Yes. And then no longer should arrive. Yes. That is Nibbana. That's right. In that moment of touching Nibbana, there is no greed, hatred, and delusion there present at all.

But in the case of someone who is an anagami who comes out of cessation, let's say intentional cessation, there's still a conceit that arises that I am coming out. Yeah. I'm not aware of anyone like that. Are you? No. Okay. Good, just checking. The question is, are you aware of anyone who does not follow, right? Who does not follow sila, samadhi, and panna, who can intentionally get into cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness?

And as far as I'm aware, I don't know anyone. So the question is, does he, but... No. Okay. But they have developed their sila, samadhi, and panna. Right, right. But sila is not Buddhist. That's the thing. If you think about it, when we talk about sila, right, the five precepts, the universal, right? No, no, then you have Grey Jedi. I think it's an important point that there is only one morality, and this is a moral or not moral world. There are different kinds of morality. Do people think that? They'll say, well, you guys have your morality and we have ours. What's the definition of morality? Yeah, I'm going to take a few more questions because then I'm going to read through this, but go ahead. Yeah, what about them? I mean, well, that's what I was going to say. We should figure it out.

See if it can go beyond seven. Yeah, they're working on that. They're working on that. The Ethics Committee has to approve it first. There's no volunteers for eight days yet. Yeah, not yet. Let's see if things can stop. You kind of go way up at day seven, put it that way. Right, exactly. Exactly. There's total cessation after that, like complete cessation, like irreversible cessation. Yes, yes, because for example, we've talked about dependent origination, and you've understood some levels of the penetration that craving is manifested as tightness and tension when you say, I like this, I don't like this, I am this, or clinging is manifested as the rationale of why you don't.

So you watch what's going on in your mind. You're saying, I don't like this because of so-and-so, and you're trying to make reasons for why it is. That's the clinging. And then there's the idea of, therefore, I am going to do this, which is the bhava. So you look at which level of that statement the mind is steeped in, or variations of that statement the mind is steeped in, and you can let go. Let's share some merit. May suffering ones be suffering free, and the fear-struck be fearless. May the grieving shed all grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Thank you.