Zoom Talk MN 106 with Delson Armstrong -The Imperturbable

Let's do it. Let me spotlight you here. The show is yours, Delson. Thank you. Today we're going to be reading 106. And let me take time reading this particular title here. It's Anenjasappaya Sutta, The Way to the Imperturbable. This is the only sutta where both the Pali and the English are difficult to pronounce. And you can slip up. But anyway, as I heard on one occasion, the Blessed One was living in the Kuru country where there was a town of the Kurus named Kama Sadhama.

There, the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus: "Bhikkhus." "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this: "Bhikkhus, sensual pleasures are impermanent, hollow, false, deceptive. They are illusory, the prattle of fools. Sensual pleasures here and now and sensual pleasures in lives to come, sensual pleasures here and now and sensual perceptions here and now and sensual perceptions in lives to come, both alike are Mara's realm, Mara's domain, Mara's bait, Mara's hunting ground. On account of them these evil unwholesome mental states such as covetousness,

ill will and presumption arise, and they can constitute an obstruction to a noble disciple in training here. So the Buddha is laying out the hindrances. There are different kinds of distractions that can arise in the way of sensory experiences, and what he says is they are, both including the sensual pleasures and sensual perceptions, whether they're here presently or they will be arriving in the next moment or whenever it might be, all of them are considered to be impermanent, are considered to be illusory, considered to be impersonal.

And the moment you take them personally, the moment you see this sensual experience as me, mine, or myself, then you are in, as he puts it, Mara's realm, Mara's domain. You are in Mara's bait or Mara's hunting ground. When we think about Mara, we usually or traditionally see him as, see that being as being some sort of a demon or devil or tempter or whatever it might be. But really, he's just a deva who's just enjoying sensual experiences.

And his whole point, or her whole point, depending upon how you see Mara, is to attract people or all beings towards the sensual realm. The whole point there is not to get beyond that. And to get beyond that is to go through the process of jhana. Now, when you get through the process of jhana, you start to see the emptiness of all sensual experience.

Because what you see is the five physical senses. They create, through the process of dependent origination, experience. And this experience, being dependent upon the five physical sense spaces, is also impermanent because of the fact that it's dependent. But when you get into jhana, you come into an experience of seclusion from sensual pleasures, seclusion from unwholesome states. And when we talk about seclusion from unwholesome pleasures or sensual pleasures in general, what we're saying is you're experiencing another level of happiness. This is a super mundane level of happiness that you experience in the form of piti and sukha, that is to say, joy and comfort of body, tranquility, equanimity, and so on, from the first jhana onwards.

And this experience of the first jhana shows you that there is a joy beyond the five physical pleasures, the five physical senses. And so you start to see the emptiness, the hollowness, the deceptiveness, as the Buddha puts it, the illusoriness of physical, sensual pleasures. And it's because of these unwholesome mental states, or rather because of these sensual pleasures, that unwholesome mental states arise, because you identify with the body and you identify with the physical senses, or you even identify with the mind itself, and you start to covet things or you start to covet experiences. That's another way of saying longing or craving, or you have aversion, or you have a sense of identity of who you are and who you are not, based on your likes and dislikes.

This happens through the process of clinging, dependent origination. So all of these are dependent upon sensual and even mental experiences, because as we will see, even jhana can be a state which you can identify with and cause the mind to start to cling to and become prideful and conceited and all kinds of things. And this taking of the jhana personal, this process of identifying with the jhana, causes the mind to stay in that particular jhana because it either enjoys it too much or thinks that it's the ultimate, when in fact it's still within the realm of conditioned reality.

So in other words, here somebody who is practicing, leading up to the fourth jhana, and we talk about what he's going to be talking about, really is the fourth jhana onwards. So he's talking about the imperturbable. The imperturbable is always referred to in regards to the fourth jhana, and in regards to also what is known as the beautiful. So here somebody abides with the mind that is abundant and exalted, having transcended the world and having transcended the six sense spaces and their experiences, by no longer paying attention to contact, physical contact, and rather staying with the jhana, which is that super mundane state. When I do so, there will be no more evil unwholesome mental states such as covetousness, ill will and presumption in me

and with the abandoning of them my mind will be unlimited, immeasurable and well developed. Now, what he's talking about here, when he says once he abandons these different hindrances, you get into a state of jhana, and as you get towards the imperturbable, your mind becomes rid of barriers. Your mind flows. It stays with its object of meditation for quite a long time, relatively speaking, before it does get distracted, and you use that whole process of the 6R's to come back again. And then it develops the immeasurable, which is to say it gets ready to become more expansive and start to experience infinite space, as we'll see when it radiates

This, bhikkhus, is declared to be the first way directed to the imperturbable. So he says he either attains to the imperturbable, or else he resolves upon it with wisdom. So either what happens is you experience the fourth jhana and then you take that fourth jhana to be me, mine or myself, and you really enjoy it, you have self-confidence in it, you're really enjoying it, and having this flow of mind in the fourth jhana, as it takes its object of meditation, keeps the attention on the object of meditation without any effort. Or you see through it and understand that this fourth jhana is just a step towards nibbana, it's not the ultimate, and you see through it, which is to say you see it as being impersonal.

You don't take it personally. You see it as impermanent because it arose because of causes and conditions. It arose because of an intention. And then there was a state in which the attention was resting on the object of meditation for quite some time. There was a process in which the factors of the previous jhanas started to dissipate. And there comes this experience of jhana. When you see it in this way, the mind doesn't take it to be personal, doesn't take it to be permanent, and moves on either towards the next level of the imperturbable or even experiences nibbana. There have been situations where, even from the first jhana onwards, upon seeing the jhana as being empty of self, upon seeing the jhana as being impermanent, the mind inclines towards cessation, and by doing so experiences nirvana. Again, bhikkhus, a noble disciple considers thus: there are sensual pleasures here and now and sensual pleasures in lives to come, sensual perceptions here and now and sensual perceptions in lives to come.

What's important to understand here is that now we are getting into the territory of what's known as the arupajhanas. The arupajhanas are also known as the ayatanas. Ayatana means base or realm or sphere, and it also can be in the context of the sixth. The salayatana are basically the six sense spaces. So the ayatana of infinite space is what the Buddha is talking about here. And why is that? Because he says, here, somebody experiences and understands sensual pleasures as being impermanent.

Sees sensual perceptions being impermanent, and sees material form as well being impermanent. So this is a natural process. You don't have to intend upon it in the same way that you would investigate and analyze and think about it. It happens gradually. It happens naturally. When the conditions are right, there will be the experience of infinite space. And it's done through the experience of radiating in the six directions, loving kindness or compassion. When you do this, you are no longer with the physical body. Your experience, the contact, the feeling, the perception, the attention, is now rooted in just the mental realm. Now there is only the mentality, which is an experience of the formless realms, the arupajhanas or the formless ayatanas, as they are called.

Now, if you get attached to this, that is to say, you really like it, and you make this a big deal, and you say, this is wonderful, rather than staying with your object, what happens is the mind sees it and says, wow, this is amazing. This infinite space that the mind is experiencing is a wonderful experience, and it truly is. But if you make a big deal out of it, and if you allow the mind to stay attached to it, you're not going to move on further, and it can happen, as the Buddha says, that the attachment to this state can lead to rebirth in the arupa realm of infinite space.

One either sees and attains the imperturbable or experiences it with wisdom, meaning seeing it as being impermanent, and just allows the process to happen. You see, what's happening with the jhana practice is, if you're truly experiencing it in the way that causes you to release and let go, there is this meta-awareness, so to speak, a metacognition, so to speak. And what that means is the mind is watching how the attention is moving in these different jhanic states, whether it's rupa or arupa, rather than watching it being in the state. In other words, rather than experiencing it as a self that is experiencing this jhana or the arupa jhanas, it is just watching itself. It's like mind is watching mind. The attention is just on how attention moves, whether it's from the object of meditation to a hindrance or to seeing a factor of the jhanas. If you see the factor of infinite space and experiencing infinite space.

That's one experience, but you become distracted and you have to six hour that just know that yes, there is an experience of infinite space, but return back to the experience of radiating loving kindness or compassion. Now, later on, when you develop the genre, you can switch back and forth, and you can see when you are radiating loving kindness or compassion, there's a softer, gentler feeling, especially with compassion. And you switch your gaze, so to speak, you switch your attention to just radiating and seeing the infinite space, you might actually experience a sense of that infinite space. You'll experience the sense of floating and an infinitude of space without any borders. It depends on where your attention is.

But in that process of having your attention on infinite space, if you get attached to it, as we said, you will not progress further, and you will just see that as being the ultimate, rather than letting go and experiencing a higher state or experiencing even possibly cessation and then experiencing nibbana again. Bhikkhus, a noble disciple considers thus: sensual pleasures here and now, and sensual pleasures in lives to come; sensual perceptions here and now, and sensual perceptions in lives to come; material forms here and now, and material forms in lives to come; perceptions of forms here and now, and perceptions of forms in lives to come. Both alike are impermanent.

Now, what you are seeing, or what you will see in infinite consciousness, because what he's talking about now is infinite consciousness, is the different arising and passing away of sensory experiences through the eye, through the ear, through the nose, through the tongue, through the skin, or through the mind. And what that means is it's not happening at the level of the physical sense basis. There is an internal contact at the level of mind that is perceiving, that is to say mental awareness or mental consciousnesses, cognizing the arising and passing away of various sensory consciousnesses.

So when you do this, this perception of forms is not just material form, but this perception of forms is seeing the flickering. You might see in your periphery of your mental vision a ring of light, and it starts to scatter. Or you might start to see different flickers or concentric circles. If the formations that are rooted in the ear faculty are stronger, maybe you're a musician or you use your ears more, you might have more refined hearing, and the contact, internal contact in the ear base, experiences some kind of flickering. Or it can happen through the nose: you might smell phantom odors and fragrances. It might happen through the tongue: some people experience like jolts of electricity zipping through the tongue, or even some phantom tastes.

Some people experience something on the skin, but you have to understand all of that is mental. You might experience heat, you might experience tingling, you might experience other things. All of that is happening in the mentality. It's internal contact. It has nothing to do with the body. Seeing this as impermanent, you also see that the arising and passing away of these is not worth holding on to, because they are liable to cause suffering if you hold on to them, and not worth seeing as self. Because in infinite consciousness, when you see the arising and passing away of consciousnesses, even mental consciousness, you start to see the gaps between thoughts, and you start to realize that this process is not in anyone's control. It's arising because of causes and conditions. And it becomes tiresome after a while. But if you hold on to this experience, then you are not going to progress further. If you take this experience where you are actually radiating joy, and not looking at radiating joy but rather your attention is now in all of these different multifaceted experiences...

Then you become attached to it, and you think that that's the ultimate. So let go of that. See it as being a process, a natural gradual process of unfolding. What you are doing invariably when you go through these processes is getting to levels of cessation. So what I mean by that is, when you see jhanas as levels of cessation, what you're seeing now that we're talking about the arupa jhanas... when we talk about the fourth jhana, it is the cessation of the experience of the third jhana, and there is a tranquilizing of bodily formations. The breath becomes imperceptible. Your body becomes lighter. You don't really feel it unless there is some kind of contact from the external world, unless there's like a fly hitting your hand or wind if you're outside rubbing against your face, or whatever it might be. But other than that, there is no experience of the physicality. So it is the cessation of that.

When you get to infinite space, there is a cessation of the experience of the equanimity in the fourth jhana that you experience in the fourth form jhana, the arupa jhana. When you get into infinite consciousness, there is a cessation of the perception of infinite space, and now the compassion that's there in infinite space changes to joy. And this joy, as we talked about before, is just joy. It's a very contented joy. We talked about it as empathetic joy, sympathetic joy, or altruistic joy.

So if you hold on to this, the mind might become attached to it. And as the Buddha says, it is possible that the evolving consciousness may pass on to rebirth in this particular realm. But those beings who have gone through this process and become attached to it, especially through one-pointed concentration, one-pointed focus, they see that as the ultimate. A lot of times when you see infinite space or infinite consciousness, that can be mistaken to be an experience of unification between what is considered to be the self and the universe. There is this experience that is quite exhilarating, quite profound, but ultimately it is in conditioned reality. Then he goes on to say, again, bhikkhus, a noble disciple considers thus: sensual pleasures here and now, and sensual pleasures in lives to come; sensual perceptions here and now, and sensual perceptions in lives to come.

And here what the Buddha is saying is: one sees the perceptions of form, one sees in terms of the perceptions of different kinds of mental activity that might happen, and the perceptions of the imperturbable. And what that means is, when you get to infinite consciousness, when you see the flickering or whatever it might be, eventually that slows down, and now the mind becomes more attentive to the gaps between each flicker. These gaps are basically the cessation of the perceptions of the imperturbable, or the cessation of the perception of infinite consciousness. As the gaps widen, you start to get deeper into, or towards, the level of nothingness, and eventually some people have an experience of just dropping down into that experience of nothingness.

Some people see complete slowing down and stilling of the mind. And there is this pristine, very exquisite silence that is the nothingness. Now, when you're in nothingness, all external realities in terms of the thoughts about what's happening in the outside world cease. Now the mind sees within itself. Now the mind is experiencing very deep equanimity, which is tied to the experience of nothingness. Now, if you take this to be personal, that is to say you make a big deal out of it and say, wow, this is amazing, I'm just going to stay here, you won't move forward. But if you allow the mind to naturally unfold through this process of the jhanas, through the path to nibbana, then you get into higher states, as we'll see, or you might experience with wisdom the experience of cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness right there and then. There are those who have experienced cessation just by having radiated equanimity, and then at a certain point, in suddenly

everything stopped for a bit and then they came back online and experienced nirvana they saw the dependent origination so there are those who have experienced cessation from nothingness as well again bhikkhus a noble disciple gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut considers thus this is void of a self or of what belongs to a self when he practices in this way and frequently abides thus, his mind acquires confidence in this space.

Now, this is an instruction for advanced practitioners in the sense of Buddha is talking about a noble disciple. He talks about a noble disciple. He's talking about basically the Arya Savaka, who can be a sotapanna onwards. So when you get to this practice, you can start experimenting with yourself. And one of the pathways towards the experience of nothingness is to see the emptiness of all conditioned reality.

It's an experience of anatta, which naturally happens when you see the arising and passing away of consciousnesses at infinite consciousness. But it can also be done in a way where you start to just reflect and see. You don't have to investigate, but you're just observing and seeing it as an impermanent process, seeing it as an impersonal process. So some people have a very deep experience of anatta, and when they go sit down for meditation, their mind immediately goes to the base of nothingness, immediately quiets down and experiences this deep equanimity.

So you can try it for yourself and start to see the different processes of the mind and the body, start to see the external world around you and see it as being impersonal. And when you do it quite consistently, when you see this throughout your day, your mind you see is very silent, very tranquil. It doesn't cling on to anything. It doesn't stick to anything. It just stays in this level of nothingness. It just stays in this base of nothingness and in this experience of equanimity.

So when this practice is done of the emptiness of self, it is one way to get to nothingness, but there is another way as well, as we'll see. Again, Bhikkhus, a noble disciple, considers thus, I am not anything belonging to anyone anywhere, nor is there anything belonging to me in anyone anywhere. When he practices in this way and frequently abides thus, his mind acquires confidence in this space.

So when they talk about, I am not anything belonging to anyone anywhere, nor is there anything belonging to me in anyone anywhere, this is a deeper level of anatta, a deeper level of experience of anatta and emptiness. That is to say, you see the not self of relationships, you see the not self of possessions, the aggravation and the irritation, the mental movements that arise because of relationships and things happening in relationships, even whether they're good, bad or indifferent, can cause the mind agitation in one way or another.

but once you start to see that, this is not my father, this is not my mother, this is not my son, this is not my house, this is not my land, this is not my clothes, you see it all as just having arisen. Even your parents, even your children, even your friendships, even your relationships, all arising because of various circumstances, causes, conditions and choices. And so you unravel those and see that if you personalize, take personal relationships, there is an expectation and anticipation of it to be a certain way. This causes mental agitation in the mind, which causes restlessness and anxiety and all kinds of craving. But if you see this as all being impersonal, you have loving kindness in your relationships, you have compassion in your relationships, you have mudita or altruistic joy in your relationships, you have equanimity in your relationships, then those relationships will not only flower, but they will develop for the sake of experiencing deeper happiness, experiencing deeper satisfaction, and ultimately seeing with wisdom the non-attachment to those relationships.

You are content and you have no expectations, and this causes the mind deep equanimity. When you see it in this way, let's just say the not-self, the anatta of all relationships, then your mind experiences this base of nothingness. So this is one way to get there as well. Now we're going to get into the base of neither perception nor non-perception.

And when we talk about perception, what we're talking about is the memory aspect of the mind, the mind that recognizes, the mind that notes, the mind that labels. When I see this computer screen, I recognize it to be a computer screen because I have seen it before. It's rooted in memory. So perception is that aspect of the mind that labels something as this color or this quality. When you have an experience of feeling, it can be pleasant, painful or neutral, and the quality of that feeling, of saying that this feeling is pleasant, that noting of that is perception. In the same way, when you are in jhanas up until the level of nothingness, you have a perception that you are at this space of infinite space, or at this base of infinite consciousness, or at this base of nothingness.

And you experience along with those, the corresponding Brahma Viharas. So you have the perception of compassion in infinite space, you have the perception of joy in infinite consciousness, and you have the perception of equanimity in nothingness. These are all perceptions, these are all recognition of the mind seeing and cognizing what is present when you get to neither perception or non-perception you let go of that what happens is at this level of nothingness there comes a point where when you're radiating equanimity that ceases as well and when you try to radiate again there's a slight tension uh felt in the mind in the form of not wanting to continue doing that Now the mind is very satisfied and ceasing all of these coarser perceptions.

At that point, you take the quiet mind. When you take the quiet mind, this quiet mind is just deep collectedness that you have. This quiet mind doesn't have any quality except of just knowing it being there. There's nothing there. There's nothing to hold on to. And so in that sense, there's nothing to perceive. And so when you are in neither perception nor non-perception, there's no recognition going on. There's no memory going on. When you're at the first level of quiet mind, so to speak, there might be coarser impressions of formations. You might start to see into different past lives. You might start to see different images. You might start to see different patterns. But these are very inconsistent sort of proto-thoughts.

They're not fully formed. They're not fully recognized. And so you just let them go, and you let them go by letting the mind automatically six are, you just release it. You keep releasing and relaxing and the mind gets quieter and quieter and quieter until there's nothing but this absolute silence of the quiet mind. And in that there is no perception, but there's still the perception that there is the quiet mind. There is still the perception that there is this stillness, so it's neither perception nor non-perception.

So if somebody is experiencing neither perception or non-perception, and then let's say they become attached to that experience, and they go on, and at death it's quite possible that the rebirth that occurs will happen in the realm of neither perception or non-perception. And in neither perception or non-perception there's absolutely nothing going on in the way of something that can be recognized. You can't fully recognize contact. You can't fully recognize perception. You can't really recognize intention. You can't fully recognize any kind of cognition, but there's still a sense of awareness of existence. There's still an awareness of some kind of consciousness. There's still an iota of awareness tied to the experience of the base of neither perception nor non-perception.

So what that is, is the subtlest formation of conceit, that formation of I am, I exist, that is dependent upon this idea that there is a self. There still. When that is let go of, then there is the experience of cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness. So when you are in your meditation and you come upon the quiet mind, see the quiet mind as being impersonal as well, and continue to just be there. There comes a point where the mind might fluctuate, the attention might fluctuate. Either it becomes bored because there's nothing going on, and so it starts to spout out different things in the way of restlessness.

Or it gets bored and starts to get dull. And what happens is when it gets dull, certain thoughts come up, certain other objects come up. And then eventually, before you know it, the mind is now in sloth and torpor. When you have too much energy and restlessness, you balance it out with slight intention of the enlightenment factors related to tranquility.

So you have the mindfulness, you have the tranquility, you have the equanimity, and you have the collectedness. If the mind has any kind of sloth and torpor, you focus your attention a little bit by having more interest in the object, having more interest in seeing the quiet mind. And this experience brings about a little bit of joy, a little bit of that interest from the investigative factor, and it brings up a little bit of energy so the mind now becomes sharper and more attentive to the quiet mind.

Eventually, when everything comes into balance, there is just a full flow of quiet mind, and then, because of no more fuel or anything to land upon in terms of the attention, because of no more fuel in terms of the sense of I am, everything is dropped, everything ceases, and there is the experience of cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness.

Oftentimes, there might be different kinds of disconnected thoughts and patterns and ideas and concepts, and then the mind becomes interested in that. As soon as the mind becomes interested in that, it comes out of neither perception or non-perception and starts to follow that line of thinking. When that happens, now you are taking that to be self, you're taking the formation of I am and personalizing it, taking it personal. And now the mind is no longer in equanimity, no longer collected, no longer disenchanted, no longer dispassionate.

But if you see these formations arise, and you just let them go, use the 6R process and just let them go, then the mind develops further, more refined equanimity that comes in the form of disenchantment, that comes in the form of this passion, and what exists, what has come to be, that I'm abandoning, that can also be extended to be saying taking, or rather abandoning and letting go of any kind of idea of a self in any of the aggregates, specifically formations, because at this point in the practice itself you only have the mentality, and any formations that arise are just quickly let go of. It's almost automatic. As soon as something arises, as soon as you see the tiniest vibration, you just let go of it, and then you acquire equanimity. When you talk about equanimity here, I'm going to say that it's not the equanimity you experience in nothingness. It's an equanimity that is in the form of dispassion, disenchantment, and dispassion.

Thus, he obtains equanimity. He delights in that equanimity, welcomes it, and remains holding on to it. As he does so, his consciousness becomes dependent on it and clings to it. A bhikkhu with clinging, Ananda, does not attain Nibbana. But, Venerable Sir, when that bhikkhu clings, what does he cling to? To the base of neither perception nor non-perception, Ananda.

When that bhikkhu clings, Venerable Sir, it seems he clings to the best object of clinging. When that bhikkhu clings, Ananda, he clings to the best object of clinging. For this is the best object of clinging, namely the base of neither perception nor non-perception. This state is so refined that there's still something that can happen in terms of clinging. But once you go beyond the state, there's nothing to cling on to. But in the state of quiet mind, in the state of neither perception or non-perception, the mind can still identify with the quiet mind. And when you do that, then you are no longer in the base and you're starting to cling to that. When the mind becomes disenchanted and dispassionate, there is a tendency, there can be a tendency, for the mind to take that as the ultimate and then see everything as dispassionate.

But that's still not the ultimate, because it's still within conditioned reality. When you cease any kind of identification with this process, whether it's the quiet mind, whether it's the disenchantment or the dispassion, then there is the natural unfolding, the natural progression into the cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness. And there is no clinging there at all. There's no holding on to anything there at all. And when one comes out of it, one sees the links of dependent origination and experiences Nibbana.

When you let go of the subtlest formation of conceit, the subtlest formation of I am, then there is experience of cessation. And from that cessation, you start to see something because your mind becomes so pure. Your mindfulness becomes so sharp that it's starting to see as the links of dependent origination arise and pass away without attachment, without identification. And because of not grasping, there is the experience of Nibbana. Now, one important piece of advice here is when you are in the jhana, when you are in neither perception or non-perception, it's important to reflect back. Spend a couple of minutes after you come out of your practice. With your eyes closed, start to see. Just let the mind intend and retrospectively look at what happened.

When that happens, you might start to see different things. And all you have to do is 6R. This makes the mind more purified and more clarified, and it sharpens the mindfulness so that it's even sharper when it experiences the links of dependent origination. Ananda says it is wonderful, Venerable Sir; it is marvelous. The Blessed One indeed has explained to us the crossing of the flood in dependence upon one support or another. In other words, he's saying you've explained us the way to get to Nibbana through this gradual process of unfolding, through these different levels of cessation, dependent upon the other, dependent upon cofactors. But Venerable Sir, what is noble liberation?

This is an identity as far as identity extends. This is the deathless, namely the liberation of the mind through not clinging. As I said, that I am formation. This is the identity as far as identity extends. When you let go of that, you experience the unconditioned. You experience the cessation of all conditions in the form of perception, feeling and consciousness.

And the mind becomes liberated through not grasping, through not clinging. So that noble liberation really is pointing towards arahatship, towards full awakening, where the mind, when it comes back online, doesn't even hold on to any of that experience of joy and relief and seeing it as mind. It just sees that whole process of impersonality. It sees it as being impersonal. And so when that happens, there's no clinging in the form of conceit. There's no clinging in the form of ignorance. And so when those fetters drop and the other fetters dependent upon that drop, that is the restlessness, the craving for form, the craving for the formless, and the ignorance, obviously, then there is the complete dissolution of the fetters.

There is the complete destruction of craving, the complete destruction of identification, and that is the liberation of the mind through not clinging. Thus, Ananda, I have taught the way directed to the imperturbable. I have taught the way directed to the base of nothingness. I have taught the way directed to the base of neither perception nor non-perception. I have taught the crossing of the flood in dependence upon one support or the other. I have taught noble liberation.

What should be done for his disciples out of compassion by a teacher who seeks their welfare and has compassion for them, that I have done for you, Ananda. There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Ananda. Do not delay, or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you. Any questions, comments, remarks? Hey, Delson, you might want to talk about that little experiment or experiment practice that we did with you a few weeks ago, how we sat in a circle.

It could be done perhaps by other people, or at least for them to watch their mind in that way. What we did was we sat in a little circle and we went through Majjhima Nikaya 111, but we didn't go through it completely. What we did was we stopped at the first jhana or any of the jhanas and picked out the different details.

In there, Sariputta sees the different factors of the jhanas. He sees, for example, in the first jhana, he sees the vitakka and vicara. He sees the joy. He sees the comfort of the body. He sees, well, what he sees really is the five aggregates in the form of mentality and materiality. He sees the contact, feeling, perception, intention, attention. He sees mind. He sees enthusiasm. He sees the decision. He sees chanda, and so on. So all of these different factors, what we did was we started looking at them. We read it, understood it, then went into the practice. We went into the practice and then we saw it bit by bit. So what we were doing was, you weren't becoming the jhana.

You want the mind experiencing the jhana. All it was, is seeing how the mind experiences as it arises and passes away. The contact, seeing the contact of mind with loving kindness, for example. Seeing the feeling of loving kindness. Seeing the perception of loving kindness. Seeing how mind intends towards loving kindness. Seeing how attention stays on loving kindness. Seeing all of these different cofactors when they arise. The point here is not to look for them, not to investigate in the form of analyzing and trying to see and anticipating and expecting them. It's just to see when they arise and pass away. But that seeing the impermanence of that one immediately lets go of any attachment to the jhana and goes on to the next jhana. So we did this for each of the four jhanas, and then later on we did it with another group, and we went through each of the eight jhanas. And they all had a wonderful experience. I think David can talk a little bit about his experience when we did that. Oh, oh, thanks. Just give it over to me. Yeah, of course.

um i thought it was really interesting because what you did was uh well we set a timer and you said okay everybody just go into the first jhana i was like oh sure yeah i'll just go right into the first jhana but in fact you actually did because what you're doing is you said just observe the factors that you had laid out from the sutta in the jhana you know if there's unification if there's joy if there's uh you know any of these other factors see if that's there and it's almost like as you watch things the jhana came up by itself because you were no you weren't trying to get it to happen it was just happening on its own and it's almost like the mind said oh okay um fine i'll i'll do it for you you know as long as you don't you know yell at me or anything and uh it did come up and so then we went around the circle and we talked about what we saw.

And then he says, well, okay, we're going to do the second jhana. And so we did the second jhana, we did our 10-minute thing. And one thing I'll point out to the group, which I pointed out to Delson and the others, was: sometimes when you're first starting with the metta, the metta can kind of come up to the head. But it's really... and you say, oh, well, that must be the fourth jhana, but no, no, it's not. You don't just go, whoom, like that.

There's a process of going through those jhanas, and, you know, first, the metta was in my heart, and then it jumped up into my head and I thought well that's really light and what happened to the other ones in between well then I noticed it kind of went back down or or it was there um and but it was changed you know it changed into a quieter and there was the second jhana and then the then you continued another 10 minutes the timer goes off okay and we talk about it third jhana and then uh just watching the mind going on third john's not going to come up well it did and uh equanimity was there quietness the body was kind of disappeared you know all the factors were there and then all of a sudden it just goes from down here to goes whoop and then it's up here in the head it was just such a clear moving of the jhana that it was really helpful to see that whole process and i missed the second session so i can't tell you about the rest the next day but um just watching

your process watching your mind and not necessarily pushing it along was really helpful anybody else got anything hey delson yes uh this is john mott i'm sorry i'm barking dogs on mute when they uh when they come up excuse me um i'm really interested in and uh one of those powerful things about the practice for me has been the insights um and just sort of the way that the mind works and and the way that that intersects with the world and that's that's been the most powerful part all of the stuff that happens it arises and passes away phenomenon and i don't even pay attention to that anymore it's just this layer upon layer upon thing where i go oh that's how the mind works oh oh wow there's another thing i didn't see i'm just curious um sort of the insights that you've gained because you're obviously very far along and I have a great deal of respect for that.

So I'll mic up. So you want to know the kind of things that I've experienced in the genres you're saying? Insight that you've gained? Well, I think the most important insight here is to see the impersonal nature of the jhanas themselves. So in other words, you don't take it personally. You don't even take the object of meditation personally. The object of meditation, let's say when you first start out with loving kindness, or if you have radiating compassion, or whatever it might be, that arises because of an intention, that arises because of different arising of causes and conditions that include the different factors of mentality and materiality. But that's all impersonal as well. So even though it seems like your self, or the self, is intending the loving kindness,

just because it seems like it is, it's not really you who is doing it. So that comes about later, and you start to see and reflect and understand that even this process of jhana, as long as you're not pushing, as long as you're allowing it to happen and unfold naturally, you start to get this deeper insight into the impersonal nature of jhanas themselves. Thank you. You're welcome, Delson. Frank Denuso, can you hear me? Yes. Hello. Thank you. Thank you for your talk today as well. I have a question regarding, you were talking at one point about having mind as the object of meditation and adjusting for sloth and torpor or restlessness to the opposite.

I seem to have trouble at doing that. I'm kind of behind, like three steps behind. By the time I recognize what's going on, it's kind of too late. Right, already been overtaken by torpor, and I sometimes can get back, sometimes I can't. I have to walk. And I would like for you to detail a little bit more what you mean by taking a greater interest in your object of meditation. It sounds so simple and it seems so easy, yet when I'm there, not so much. Correct.

Yeah, yeah. One example would be, did you have a favourite subject in school? I did arts, the arts of any type, you know. Right. And when you have a favourite subject, when you do any kind of arts, when you're doing any kind of creativity, do you have to make an effort to do something, or does it just flow because you have a natural interest in it? Indeed, I've heard this talked about before. It does seem to just flow. It takes much less effort to do that, because you're enjoying yourself, because you like the subject, because you're into the subject much more. In the same way, when you have sloth and torpor, or even restlessness, it's happening because of boredom. That's really the underlying factor here, the boredom. Eventually what happens is, because you come to this very subtle level of mind, there's no longer any kind of sensory input, or very little if at all, but actually in the quiet mind.

It's just all mentality. So because there's nothing going on, the mind isn't used to it. The mind is used to having all kinds of sensory activity going on. I mean, right now, there's millions and millions and millions of different arising and passing away of sensory consciousnesses, because you're listening to me, you're watching the screen, your mind might be reflecting on what's going on, you're sitting in the chair, and so on and so forth. So when you come to that quiet mind, all of that dissipates, all of that is quieted down, and the mind, being used to that, no longer has any stimuli, no longer has any kind of thing that's going on. So when it sees itself, it starts to become disinterested. When it becomes mind watching mind, eventually it just becomes bored of that. So the way to bring up that joyful interest, the way to bring up that interest into your object of meditation, in this case being the quiet mind, is really being able to, first and foremost,

when you see that the mind has gone into sloth and torpor, that's a good step, because first you recognize that there is sloth and torpor present. That immediately brings back your mindfulness. Recognizing itself is mindfulness in action. When you recognize it and you release it, and now you start to have an intention of just tightening a little bit, tightening a little bit your focus, your attention on the object of meditation, in this case with the mind. So it's like

let's say, maybe for me, for example, when I was in school, mathematics was my least favourite subject and I wouldn't pay attention to it at all. I had no interest in it at all. I didn't know anything about numbers and calculus and this and that, so I never really paid attention to it. But when it came to things like literature and writing, my mind was effortless. When it came to just looking at it, there was a tightening of attention. But when I was in mathematics class, my attention was all over the place, because it had become so loose. So this tightening of that, when you see, when you are doing whatever creative work you're doing, you see there's a collectedness there. There's a collecting of attention in one thing at a time.

You're doing one thing at a time, but it seems like it's flowing. So in that same quality of feeling, is that quality of feeling when I say tightening your focus a little bit, tightening your attention? And if I understood what you just said, recognition is the first step in that process, correct? So that's a good place to start, right? Yes, okay. Yeah, as soon as you recognize, you're already making the effort. That effort then brings up energy, brings up a little bit of interest already. Because of that activity, it dissipates the sloth and torpor. And now all you have to do is intend collecting the mind around mind itself again.

Beautiful. Thank you very much, Delson. You're welcome. Hey, let me jump in here with some plugs for some of the work we've been doing with Delson over the last few weeks. As you can see behind me, he's been being interviewed by Venerable Karuna, who's with us under a different name. Hi, Liam. How are you doing? There he is.

We've got, we did some sessions, we just put out 31 planes of existence, where Delson goes through all of the planes and talks about them. The first one was about his background and talking about TWIM. The next one was about some upcoming brain research that is happening in the Netherlands, and then we talked about mindfulness, and what is really the meaning of mindfulness, and what is TWIM, and what are the jhanas, more detailed, the concentration versus the jhanas that we know of. I think Delson, you're starting to call them sutajanas, actually. It's kind of an interesting, good name. And some other things. So there's going to be about seven different videos that are coming out, and some of them are out, and just check Bhante's channel, and I'm posting everything there, and it's also on our front page, so a lot of interesting stuff. Plus I'll add, we made a video with most frequently answered, asked questions, frequently asked and answered questions.

And we wrote down a whole list, combining a list from our site and the Sutta Foundation site and the Suttavada Foundation site, and anything else we could think of. And Karuna asked Delson his opinion: what were the answers to all those questions, like trying too hard and can't find the feeling, and many of those things. It's about a half hour. I think it's going to be worthwhile watching and sending around to people who are having difficulty with their meditation. So look for all those videos.

Anything else from anybody? I have a question. Yes, can you hear me? Yes, I can. Okay, great. And thanks, David and Delson. I really appreciate this. This is very, very wonderful. And I think in Delson we have a teacher who has combined incredible knowledge of the suttas plus direct experience, and that's a rare and beautiful thing. So thank you for that, and for sharing it, not just like a Pacceka Buddha keeping quiet about having the ability to help other people. I have a question about kind of a follow-up on Frank's question. What happens with me when I go rather deeply into my sitting

is that at some point the 6R's kind of just falls away because not much is coming up that I'm perceiving or feeling. And there's a very deep satisfaction. I wouldn't say that there's anything personal attached to it that I can perceive, but it is a satisfaction in just being, I will use that word. Are there pitfalls to that, or things perhaps that I'm not seeing? - So is your object at that point a quiet mind? - Yes. - Yeah, so that's fine. I would say that's totally fine, as long as you don't have any kind of other personal thoughts related to it. So if your mind just remains watching the quiet mind, there comes a point where even the quiet mind kind of disappears.

It becomes very subtle and the mind is just not landing on any object at all. So that contentment also will go away and it will become, let's say, disenchantment. That disenchantment will also go away and that will become dispassion, and eventually you just completely let go of it all. So there's not much you need to do here. All you have to do is continue to watch how things unfold. So just keep sharpening the mindfulness to be able to see how contentment transitions

into a quieter and deeper level of quiet mind, to the point that it becomes so subtle that it's almost not even there. It's almost like, and I caution myself to use this word, it's almost like there's just pure awareness. There's nothing else. Like, there's nothing the mind is landing on, right? But that awareness itself should not be considered to be taken as some kind of a self or something like that. It's just, it's so pristine. There's like almost nothing there. You're like looking through this very, very polished glass, and you don't even notice that there's any glass that you're looking through. When you get to that, all that requires is just soft, gentle mindfulness. Keep doing what you're doing.

And I would say you need a little more time to keep that unfolding process from contentment to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation. As Bhante likes to say, I'm here now in Dhammasuka, and he, as he liked to say in the retreat, three hours is good, four hours is better, five hours is even better. So if you have the time, try to meditate for as long as you can in one sit. Wonderful. Thank you. Delson, may I ask something?

Yes, please. I'm new here, and I'm from the Netherlands. I'm new here. I was looking for the 6R's. I had one time, one evening, been with Bhante Vimalaramsi, but I think it was 12 or 13 years ago, and I did not follow up with this. But in the metta meditation I did it in another way, with all the different persons, one after the other. But now I have a difficulty, because I was looking for the combination from the no-self and the sentences with may I be this, may I be that, may you be that, may do. So how to combine? I thought it's not possible to do it in this way, or you have to know that it is not what you are saying, that you do not mean what you are saying.

Can you help me with it? Yeah. One thing you have to understand is when you do this process of may I be happy, may I be well, or tell somebody else, may you be happy, and so on, these are all verbalizations that happen in specifically the first jhana. When you let that go, so there comes a point where you drop all of that, all you do is just experience the feeling itself.

This meditation is not just verbalizing, which can help initially in order to bring up the feeling. As far as I understand it, in other kinds of loving kindness practices, they use the phrases in some ways almost like a mantra, but there's not a lot of feeling going on. There might be, but there's not a lot of attention there. So my recommendation is, when you start to feel loving kindness, the warmth of loving kindness, when you verbalize, let go of the verbalization and put your attention and rest your awareness on the experience of the feeling itself. And then just watch how that feeling develops, watch how that feeling grows or changes, or whatever it might be.

This process of watching how that feeling changes is actually a process of seeing and perceiving impermanence. When you see that, then that naturally leads to the perception of anatta, as you said. Yes. And when it becomes so very quiet, as the speaker before was telling. And you cannot do anything, or it doesn't have to be done, something that's just quiet. It's just staying, and it is quiet.

Can you see that as a radiation? No, let me tell it differently. You were speaking about relationship metta in the relationships this evening, and I felt very touched by it. I thought, this is the thing that I am, how to radiate, but there is no one to radiate. Yeah. So, one of the experiences, I just want to know. I know you said you're new to TWIM, so I think I'll give you a little bit of understanding of how the steps are. First, you, yeah, first you radiate to a spiritual friend, and then afterwards you radiate to different people or categories of people, and then when it comes to actually radiating

to in all directions. You're taking all beings in that sense, not just your family members, not just your friends, not just the difficult people, not just the casual acquaintances, but all beings, all animals, and so on and so forth. There was an experience of somebody who was experiencing infinite space and they're experiencing compassion. It was in one of the sessions that we were doing where we were going through each of the jhanas, and as he was doing it, one of the things I indicated is, when you radiate compassion, there can be a time where you actually start to connect with a specific individual or groups of individuals in the meditation, and sometimes you see that that person is suffering, and sometimes you have an intention to call them up or send them an email or message them, and invariably you'll see that, yes, indeed, they were suffering and they were looking up for somebody to help them, and things like that. So somebody went through this process doing that.

And they actually saw that somebody in their life was suffering, and they understood that that person needed support, needed words of guidance and help, and so on. And that was their decision whether they wanted to act upon it or not. But that can happen when you radiate loving kindness and when you radiate compassion. You can actually start to connect with certain people, and it just gives you a reminder to stay in touch with them and see how they're doing, and so on. So in reality, then, you take, make contact with the person. Yes, let's just step further. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Delson, since we're talking about the arupa jhanas, I wondered if you could just give us a few thumbnail sketches of what it's like to be there. What are the beings' experience in the upper realms?

Yeah, beyond the form realms and the formless realms, number one, all that is there is mentality. When we talk about mentality and materiality, that really is talking about mind and factors of the mind. That's mentality, or nama, and rupa, which is the body itself, made up of the four great elements or the four states of matter, as we understand in modern understanding.

But the arupa jhanas, there's only mentality. So there's still some kind of contact, there's still some kind of feeling, there's still some kind of perception, there's still some kind of intention, there's still some kind of attention. The experience of infinite space, somebody who has an experience of being in infinite space, being a being in infinite space, they have no body. There's no experience of any kind of body. There's just contact in the form of the understanding of an infinitude of space. There's just a feeling and perception of the infinitude of space. There's no borders anywhere. It's like, qualitatively speaking, it's that kind of experience where you become one with the universe, but that being there is still that sense of 'I am.' There's still that sense of 'I exist.' It's not verbalized, but it's just understood as, here I am, and I am infinite space, infinite consciousness. That is interesting, because then the awareness becomes so refined that you start to see mental contact, and that mental contact is in the form of different kinds of perceptions, different kinds of feeling and perception.

And that is just basically not flickering, obviously, because there's no eye there. It's not listening to anything. It's just frames of thoughts. They're like different frames of thoughts that arise and pass away. And you're just watching this flow of the frames of thoughts arise and pass away. And that's all that's going on. And it's happening. But along with that there is an experience of some kind of relief, some kind of, and by the way, there is a lot of relief because there's no body there. The body has so much pressure, so much suffering, so much

other kinds of pain and pleasure and things like that, but none of that is experienced here. In nothingness there is this idea that there is not even the seeing of the frames of individual thoughts. There's just this experience of nothing. And the way that sense of understanding is, 'I am nothing.' You know, there comes a point in somebody's experience of meditation where they realize there's nothing to hold on to. 'I am nothing.' That's the same kind of perception that happens with these beings there. They experience the sense of 'I am nothing.'

And they think that to be the the superior they think that to be the supreme that this sense of i am nothing now neither perception or non-perception is very interesting because there's no recognition of what's going on in the way of the factors of mentality there's no contact there's no feeling there's very little perception there's no intention at all and so all there is is this sense of i am this is also known as in some traditions as uh asmita samadhi like in the yoga sutras they talk about asmita samadhi which is the sense of just existing and not having anything else it's a sense of i am existing

but not dependent on anything else but that sense of i am existing itself is uh also within conditioned reality and so when a being comes out of this realm of neither perception or non-perception, whatever intention arises just before the dissolution of that experience is liable to create the next set of experiences in the next rebirth. So there's no intention going on there at all. It only happens at the very end. It's very similar to the asanyata beings, but there is still a consciousness of I am. There's still a consciousness of I am existing. And then when the intention rises again, it is liable to create the next rebirth and you're just swimming in space not doing anything at least in infinite space you're swimming in space there's just nothing going on and then even the nothingness is just there's no sense of space either no sense of dimension no sense of up down here there yeah

Strange, is it really worth it to hang out there for 84,000 maha kappas? In the... I would get bored. I would get... yeah, I would easily... yeah, it's like, that was nice for five minutes. Oh no, another 83,400, whatever maha kappas to go. Okay, um, uh, why not? Shameless plugs for your book. You've got the book, you just put it on Amazon, pre-publication. Yeah, so right now I am working with the formatter to get it almost done. So we're about a few weeks before we actually get it in print, but it is available on Amazon, on Kindle, for pre-order, and I've put the tentative release date as December 3rd. It might come about earlier, but I don't know. If you want to put it in the chat, David, you can go to that link and you can pre-order. Okie dokie. And then you're working on a much longer book, right? Yes, that's going to take about a year and a half to actually finish, and that's a book on dependent origination.

Right now I'm still stuck in craving. I mean, the chapter of creative, you're stuck in craving, did you? It's going to be a big one. It's going to be almost like an encyclopedia of dependent origination, as much information as there is about each of the links of dependent origination, it's going to be there. So we don't know how it's going to be released. It might be released in different booklets, or maybe as one massive volume, but I'm going through all 23 links. So that's going to be the 12 links as we understand them when it comes to suffering.

And then the 11 links that lead to nibbana, so that's suffering onwards, like faith and pamojja and sukha and tranquility and collectedness, seeing reality as it is, this passion, all of the different links that we talk about that lead to nibbana. And you're basing that book on the Upanisa Sutta, I guess? Upanisa Sutta, that's right, where everybody thought there was just 12 links, but there's 23 links, the unknown links. And that's what we're all on right now. We're on the 13 links right now on the path to nibbana. That's right. Any further questions today?

Hey, hi David, this is Pat. Hey, Patrick. Delson, thank you. Delson, I just wanted to, David, to maybe our dear friend Jotika, does she know that there are online courses available at damasuka.org that she could take to maybe help her get a better understanding, since she seemed to be asking that question? In case she doesn't know, I just thought I wanted to throw that out there. I endorse it as well. People have done them. So anyway, Jotika, if you want, you should look at the website if you don't know already. Yes, I will. Yeah, I heard it and I will. Thank you. Thank you very much. Sure. I don't tell one question about two questions on my side. One is, did I understand right, in this jhana, in this sutta you read: if you experience each arupa jhanas, when you be born, you're going to go to the next jhana, or you're going to basically be born

as in a stream winner, or you're going to, at the time of death, you're going to basically experience the stream winner or cessation. So my second question is that, if your object is quiet mind, and if you have got a very engineering mind and problem solver mind, and the task of the day just descend on your mind and distract you a lot, what is your recommendation to practice and calm it down and getting back to that state of the quiet mind of the object of meditation?

Okay, I just wanted to clarify your first question. I was, I was not completely able to understand exactly what you're asking. Is it that if somebody gets to a jhana, are they liable to be reborn into a new, into that realm associated with that jhana? Right? For instance, if you are experiencing, I don't know, the infinite consciousness, if you are reborn, are you going to be reborn in a state of the infinite, I don't know, nothingness? Or if you experience nothingness in this life, you're going to experience the, you know, perception non-perception next lifetime? Or if you experience the last jhana or the eighth jhana, are you going to experience cessation at the time of the death? And what is the, who does work on that? Yeah, so I'm going to go back to the sutta itself. When he practices in this way and frequently abides thus, meaning a person who becomes attached to the experience of that jhana continues to progress their mastery of that jhana, that can lead to an attachment to the jhana rather than seeing it as impersonal.

and that can cause that being uh to take rebirth because what will happen is at the point of dissolution of the body the mentality the mind the formations that arise happen to arise because the mind naturally inclines words that specific jana and if that's the last set of formations that arise there's a there can be a tendency to cling to them which can activate a new consciousness that takes rebirth so to speak in that particular brahma realm associated with that jhana so if somebody is doing this and has attachment to that jhana it can cause them to take rebirth there if somebody attains you know attach or has attachment to neither perception non-perception

they won't go into cessation. They will only go into cessation when they let go of it in meditation. So whatever jhana the mind is most interested in and develops, what happens is, because of that continuous development of interest in that jhana, there is a continual strengthening of formations rooted in that jhana practice. Those formations then give rise to an experience that the mind will cling to, and then cause rebirth in that particular jhana realm. But that doesn't mean that the person will move forward into that next realm or something like that. It's just whatever realm associated with that particular jhana is where they will go. Okay. And then I guess they're going to be born as a human being, or it's going to be a different realm?

Well, for example, if you're in the first jhana and somebody is interested in the first jhana and really likes it, then they'll be born in the first brahma realm associated with the first jhana, or with the second jhana, the Abhassara realms; with the third jhana, the Subhakinha realms, and things like that. So these are the different form realms of the brahma realms. They won't be born as a human again. They'll be reborn as a brahma in that particular realm. Thanks. So I guess for the second question

Yeah, the second question is, can you say it again, please? Yeah, sure. So if the object of meditation is quiet mind, and you have a very engineering mind and problem-solving mind, and I don't know, the task of the day and deadlines and all of those descend on your mind, right? You want to basically go through meditation and sit down, and but all of those suddenly come and take you to hindrances or restlessness and all those. How to basically try to, I mean, even if the 6R's doesn't work, and even if the very basic meta

um doesn't work just assuming that the friend and all those um what is your recommendation for basically getting to that stage of uh quiet mind uh to practice i mean some some days of course is better than some other days work might be busy um compared to other days that work is not as busy less deadlines less stress um so yeah just wanted to know what is your recommendation to practice especially on difficult days i would say it depends upon uh the intention and what that means is there's a there's a couple of suttas or i think three suttas in one after the other which which are all known as the chetana sutta or the sutta on intention and what it talks about is when there is an intention and there's a planning and there's a tendency towards something the mind is liable to bring up a consciousness that establishes into that object of intention

so if you intend to through the day which is to say you have something going on in terms of a deadline it is going to be difficult because your mind is inclined towards that it also says that if you if you don't have the intention but you have the plans towards it or your underlying tendency inclines towards it that's also liable to cause the consciousness to establish into it but if you don't have an intention that means and that's very difficult to do because the mind is liable to create some kind of intention or some kind of an activity even in meditation itself when you come to the meditation and you put in some kind of intention that causes the consciousness to establish into that particular intention the attitude for meditation should be you sit down and have no expectations

this goes one well it goes to the level of beginner mind or one level below that which is to say i don't know what's going to happen with the meditation i don't have any intention let's see where mind wants to go as soon as you put an intention there there is going to be resistance to that intention in the form of hindrances, in the form of restlessness, in the form of disquietude. So instead of doing that, what you should do is just sit down and allow your mind to become mindful by just watching what's going on in the way of the feeling in the body, what's going on in the way of where the mind is inclining towards, basically using the four foundations of mindfulness to let the mind kind of disassociate from the sensual experiences and with whatever's happening in the day or whatever's going to happen in the day.

What you'll see when you do that is there is a further quietening of the mind and then it will collect itself around something. Instead of intending that I'm going to radiate loving kindness, instead of intending I'm going to radiate compassion or even instead of intending I'm going to be in the quiet mind allow the mind to go where it wants to go and it will naturally incline towards wherever it feels like it wants to go and your job there is to just observe its attention let it rest there and then six are whenever that attention swerves if you do it in this way you'll find that the mind quietens down much quicker so I've done that a couple of times especially letting the mind go and of course it just continue problem solving and get into the next and next and next and then try to 6R and take it back.

But it just keep going and go into the planning mode and the rest. And I've done some, so you talk about the four foundations, is it that you recommend like go back to reading or the formation of the body or formation of the mind or mind to look into that as well you know the thing about the foundations of mindfulness i see the foundations of mindfulness going on even when you're doing loving kindness even when you're doing breathing even when you're doing whatever it might be because when you have loving kindness you have the foundation of mindfulness of the body when you see or perceive warmth in the body you have the feeling of loving kindness you have you see the intention that arises through the mind you have the the actual loving kindness which is a brahma vihara you might notice a hindrance you might notice this enlightenment factor or whatever it might be and this is looking at phenomena that i have that is happening within the mind so i i would say that you know while it seems

like the four foundations are a separate practice they're actually there present in any kind of meditation you do where there's twim whether it's breathing or loving kindness as to the recommendation of whether you should do breathing or loving kindness that's really up to you you should you should try and experiment if you're going to do breathing i understand that don't allow the mind to focus on the breath so much that it becomes concentrated allow the breath to become a reminder of being attentive and relaxing and letting go okay what was the sutras you said there are three sutras the chisa sutras do you have the name for those or numbers I think somebody actually typed them in already.

It is Chetna Sutta Samyutanikaya 12.38. Okay, brilliant. So going back to what you mentioned about just sitting down and let the mind go wherever it wants to go, what if you just continue planning and problem solving? how do you how should i tackle that it's all right six are it and see but more importantly when you six are it you're recognizing now the mind is restless you recognize it you release your attention away from it you relax it if you're doing it correctly if you relax and you re-smile the return process just see where the mind collects around that return process when you see what's happening there the mind will naturally collect around something whether it's loving kindness or whether it's compassion or whether it's the breath or whether it's the quiet mind so if you're you're correctly doing the six r's then the mind will naturally collect around something and that's what you have to see and recognize and perceive

so can we by intention put that object that mind going to collect around that or just observe where the mind or what is the object that mind going to get collect around it there's two ways of doing it you can have a slight intention meaning before you sit down if you want you can do that and say okay let's try loving kindness or and i would say for you it might be the preferable way is to just allow it to see where the mind lands upon because sometimes if you just allow the mind to go into loving kindness it might not want to be there maybe it wants to be in compassion maybe it wants to be in equanimity just see where it wants to go to in the way of an object of meditation not in the way of going through the thought stream of planning see where it's collecting around in terms of an object

so much so basically in terms of object you're talking about the brahmovira any of the four objects basically yes yes okay thank you you're welcome hi nelson i i have one question about um the capabilities of beings uh in these realms uh are they able to um develop towards nibbana or even learn or would that not be possible just like uh in the hell realms and just like in the brahma realms where the beings are burning out their karmic fuel dependent upon what they did in the previous life it's the same thing in in the arupa jhanas there's no capacity to experience the dhamma so to speak the first brahma realm is quite possible because there's still some verbalizing there there's still some activity going on there but then as you get to deeper and deeper or subtler and subtler levels

really what's going on is those beings are just kind of blissed out you know they're just walking jhana addicts and they're just i mean at least in the form realms and they're not doing anything else uh in the arupajanas or the arupa realms uh they're just burning out the karmic fuel of that experience so if it's for whatever maha kaphas that's what's going on there's no capacity for them to uh get deeper and experience nibbana right thanks you're welcome so maybe one or two more questions and we'll call an end to this going once

Hi Delson. Hello. I just wanted to say you did a really beautiful job with this talk. It really, really is nice, the way you put it together, and you're so succinct with your timing and everything. It's really beautiful. And when you were talking about mind is watching mind, it brought up something for me that before the Buddha, meditation seems to have always had a subject and an object involved, like a person and an object always involved. And then along comes the Buddha. He comes along and he says, okay, here's what's going to happen: the object is going to be the subject. And turned it around. And that keeps going through my mind, and this was what was happening with this. I kept coming back to that, you know, in this particular thing. Yeah, that brings about the experience of anatta, being able to see this as being impersonal. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

But it's a flip turn what he does, you know, and probably upset a lot of people because they were working from the other angle. You know, they must have been one of the reasons why the six groups got so mad and everything. Yeah, but anyway, they were just terrible. Anyway, oh, I had a question. Wait a second, when do we do this? I was writing notes, and wait a minute. Yeah, so what was being said in the Alagaddupama Sutta, in... it's Majjhima Nikaya number 22. The situation with Arittha was that he wanted to engage things all the time and

And then the monks got angry and they sent for the Buddha, and they said you've got to straighten him out, because there were young monks that were coming there and he was informing them the wrong way. And it turns out, if you just abandon, abandon, abandon, abandon, and let go, let go, let go, that's where this whole thing ends up. One of the most beautiful things about that was one Anathapindika Sutta, because when you look at enough advice to Anathapindika in 143

Then that's where you really feel, well, he took the people through life. He taught them all these things, and then in the end, when he's dying, and then net the pinnacle was like a roadie, you know, for a road. I call him the roadie when I talk to people about him. He was really for the concerts in nature. Everybody had seats, and they had water, and they had everything they needed, and lamps and space and everything. So he didn't always listen to the Buddha, and this is why he wanted help in the end. He wanted the Buddha to guide him out of life. But the whole lesson is to let it go, let it go, let it go, let it go. And yeah, so, yeah, I'm glad you brought up

I'm sorry, no, I... that's just this letting go, this abandoning and abandoning and abandoning, and it seems to work really well. When you get people in front of you who haven't done anything, have you done that yet? Have you had a retreat where, you were, everybody in the room, they haven't read anything about meditation, and then you start teaching them? It's crazy. It's so incredible how accurate this stuff is if you get people who will listen to you, and they'll write down everything you say and do what you ask and report back in the interviews, and everybody in the retreat is doing that. It was a shock that when this happened, it was a few weeks back with 16, the 16 nuns that did it with me. It was quite something.

And only one of them had had an experience, um, with meditation, slightly, with vipassana, but all the rest of them hadn't cracked a book, had never read anything, and were only doing centering prayer, sort of thing, from the Christian side of view, of sitting in prayer, you know, and they took to it like ducks take to water. It was something else that happened, amazing stuff. So I just wondered if you had ever had this experience with people before, like that? Yeah, I have. Whether I was doing online retreat, I mean mostly online retreat guidance, there have been other people who had no experience with the meditation, and if they just follow the instructions

To the letter, you start to see, basically, it's like a formulaic thing. You start to see the same thing in terms of them experiencing joy, and then they let go, and then they experience the second jhana, and then they experience the third, and finally they experience stream entry at some point. So yes, if you follow the instructions and don't even have to have any kind of understanding of the sutras, the understanding of the sutras will come later when you actually practice, and the practice actually informs you, and the experience teaches you, and you kind of unlock the code of the suttas, and a lot of the things that you see you kind of recognize from your own experience. I just want to touch a little bit on what you were talking about with Anathapindika 143.

If you look at that particular sutta, the way Sariputta is talking about, he says, 'My consciousness will not land on any of the five aggregates, any of the six sense bases, in this world or the next,' and so on and so forth. There's an encapsulation of all that process where there's a sutta in which Ananda asks Sariputta, is there a perception or is there an experience that is beyond the six sense bases, that goes beyond the five aggregates, that goes beyond the realms in terms of the arupa jhanas, that goes beyond this world and that world? And Sariputta says, yes, there is. And it is namely this: the stilling of all formations,

the relinquishment of all clinging, of all assets, the dispassion, the disenchantment, the dispassion, the cessation, the experience of Nibbana itself. So if you look at 143 from that context, what Sariputta is doing is leading Anathapindika to the unconditioned by allowing his mind to let go, let go, let go, until there's nothing that the mind lands on to, and it experiences the unconditioned.

It's a fun suited to memorize, because to teach someone to memorize this is: I will not cling to the eye, and my consciousness will not be dependent on the eye. And you do this through all the six sense doors. It's the same sentence over and over and over again. You're drilling and drilling your head. And some of them just, we played with that because they wanted to learn something, to remember, and we chose to use that one and put it in the first tense and let them use it, and it really worked wonderfully, because most of them could remember it within a few days. They memorize prayers, you know, and stuff. So they're good memorizers. That's wonderful. Oh, but it was such a good feeling to see this leaving, you know, this, what a way to be ushered out, you know, what a way, just amazing. Yeah, thank you for the sutta, I really enjoyed it. Okay, I think, could I say? Oh yeah, yeah, sure, go ahead. I just wanted to verify what, well, I mean, if you get my seal of approval

But what Delson had said to Sister Keema was true, true for me in any case. When I did, I just did the online retreats, as you know, and David, and I knew very little about Buddhism. I mean, just hardly anything. I hadn't really, I listened to maybe a video or so, but I knew very little. I went into it with no expectations. I just followed along. I didn't kill myself with trying to meditate all day and do anything extreme. I just, you know, what about my life? And then I made sure I did what I needed to do, what was required, and I had great success. And then after that I started delving into reading and studying more, and that type of thing. So anyway, that was my two cents worth. I just wanted to... yeah, I think, I think our best students that come here don't know anything at all. They haven't practiced, uh, tantra, uh, breath or Tibetaness or

mtv of anything, Mahayana, Theravada, raja, nothing. They just go, well, we just want to meditate, and they don't really even know what the goal is, right? They just figure, well, they'll get calm and relaxed, right? And some of them even come and say, oh, I thought this was a yoga retreat, but then they leave. That's true. Uh, um, I think, uh, who's that Russ said that when he was here, but then they leave, flying up into the jhanas. They had no idea, and they left with an amazing experience, but they had no idea what the background was. And you did, Tommy, you had to go and read what the heck all this stuff was all about

And yeah, so, right, right, so yeah, so it's just no expectations is the way to start, I guess. Just in the stay with that, I just, you know, and your sitting should be 100 no expectations too, right? I always tell people, Tommy, I always tell people to go into the sitting as if you were two years old and you were peeking around the corner, just to see who's in the next room, and you go in just to see what happens next. See, like Nelson said, expecting nothing. But if you have kids, you remember when they were little and they'd walk around all over the house trying to see what this is and what that is? You go in just to see what happens next, with that frame of mind, and just sit. That's what you do. Perfect. Or if you're the kids, just sit down and shut up. All right.

Is that it, or let's share some merit? Okay. All right. May suffering ones be suffering free, and the fear-struck fearless be. May the grieving shed all grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired, for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power, share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu. All right, thank you very much. We will see everybody next week if you so desire, and we'll just keep going, Sundays at one o'clock our time, into November, with Bhante restarting again. And everybody have a good week and a good sitting.