In the SEEN there is Only the SEEN - Sunday Sutta Session Udana 1.10 Bāhiya Sutta

Great. Here we are. Can I read this? Is this big enough to read? Yeah. Good. David and I were talking a couple of days ago about what sutta we want to do, and he said, "Well, you keep talking about the Bahiya Sutta. You mention it a lot." And indeed I do, but really I haven't done a talk on it.

I was out scouring the internet for a good translation, and I wasn't happy with any of the translations. So this is my own translation of the Bahiya Sutta. In my Dhamma talks I talk about this, which is: in the seen there's only the seen, in the heard there's only the heard, in the sensed there's only the sensed, and in the cognized there's only the cognized. Then it says, when there is no you by that, then there is no you in that. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you really look into what the Buddha is referring to. So I actually went ahead and tried to figure out what would be a good way of describing this.

This is really the essence of what I say in the Dharma talks: experience everything fully without the sense of the I. That could be misinterpreted as carpe diem, seize the moment, seize the day, and just experience everything fully. But it's about allowing experience to just flow, without having to engage with it from a sense of I, from a sense of this is me, this is mine, this is myself.

It's more about, can you give me one second? There are these sounds that are coming and going. It's really about, in the experience, only the experience. And that includes just the meditation as well. We often times, when we're meditating, have a goal in mind. We have a trajectory that's there, and we say, this is how the meditation should be going. And who's doing that? It's the sense of self that says, I'm going to have a good meditation, or I'm going to radiate loving kindness, so I'm going to be in quiet mind.

But I think a better approach would be to just sit down, relax, and ask the mind when you do this. Ask the mind. You're engaging with intuition, because you're not thinking about how things need to be. You're not thinking every time there's a sense of "I will do this." That's volitional formations. That's thoughts. That's conceptual proliferation.

But if you allow yourself to get out of the way by saying, okay, mind, what do you want to do in this session? And just wait and see what comes up. I feel like loving kindness is a good approach now. Or I feel like sending compassion to all beings. Or I feel like going into the signless. So doing it in that way allows you to have a more free-flowing meditation, a more clear meditation, a meditation that is not rooted in any kind of I, me, or mine, right? Mine or myself.

So we'll explore this more. I wanted to give this a little prologue before we start, so I'll start reading now. This is from the Udana. This is Udana 1.10. Udana means inspired sayings. It's like shouting, well, it's like you've had a moment of eureka, and there's an inspired saying that comes out of it. At the end of each of the suttas in the Udana section, someone, especially the Buddha, will give some kind of saying in verse which encapsulates the entire sutta. So this is called Bahiya of the Bark Cloth. Why is it called Bahiya of the Bark Cloth? As far as I remember and understand the story, or the backstory of this, Bahiya was on a ship.

And it seemed that the ship had crash-landed, and he found himself on this beach, and there was bark cloth, or bark material, that he used as a way of just covering himself up. And eventually he became an ascetic. And the backstory, I believe, goes, and don't quote me on this because I haven't really fully read into it, but as far as I understand, he had been a disciple of the Dhamma. He was a monastic.

He was one of the last monastics who was stuck on this mountaintop or something, and the other monastics had become arahants in that life or future lives, and he had yet to experience that. And so here we are now, in this life, with him. And he became an ascetic. There are some scholars who believe that possibly he had become a scholar or ascetic practitioner of the Upanishads.

The Upanishads are Vedantic literature. So Vedanta means the end of the Vedas, the Veda-anta, Vedanta. And the Vedas, during the time of the Buddha, there were only three Vedas. So you will see in some of the sutta references it says, he is a Brahmin with the knowledge of all three Vedas. The fourth Veda came out later. And so the four Vedas are essentially different kinds of hymns and prayers and different kinds of vigils to deities and heroes of the past.

And in the last part of the Vedas, of each of the Vedas, there's all the philosophy behind it. get the word Vedanta from. And the Upanishads are part of that literature. There's also the Brahmanas and the Aranyakas and all of these other texts, but the Upanishads are the main focus for the Vedantic tradition. And what does it mean, Upanishad? Upanishad really just means to sit down and to listen. So it's a sort of very personal Upanishads Experiencer of everything. And they call this consciousness, or the pragya, or as it's known in Sanskrit, the essence, the atman, the soul, as the one who is behind the hearing, the one who is behind the seeing, the one who is behind the sensing, the one who is behind the cognizing.

So Bahiya has this understanding, right? It's important to understand this context, and then you'll see why the Buddha gives these instructions. So I'll start now. is a place that I actually grew up in. It's now modern-day Nalasopara, which is on the coast near Mumbai. When I was very young, an infant, my family stayed there. And there are a lot of interesting things there related to Buddhist history and so on. So here he is in Suparaka, but he's going to be going to Savatthi, and that's not a short journey.

It takes about two weeks by foot to go from Suparaka to Savatthi, as you'll see. So what does it say? He was residing there, honored, respected, esteemed, revered, and venerated, receiving robes, alms food, lodging, and medicinal support for the sick. So he was an ascetic who was in a tradition where you receive these things, things that any monk will receive. That is clothing, right? Robes, food, lodging, and any medicines for when you are sick.

And it occurred to him, whatever persons in the world are arahants, or those who have attained the path to arahatship, that means the arahattaphala or the arahattamagga, the path of the fruition, I am among them. This is the thinking that Bahiya has. Then, out of compassion for Bahiya of the bark cloth, a deva, who was a blood relative of his in a previous life, wishing for his welfare, approached Bahiya and said, "Not at all are you Bahiya, an arahant, nor have you attained the path to arahatship." So he's letting him know, no, you're mistaken with that idea. You would be an arahant or have attained the path. So in other words, you're not even following the noble eightfold path. You don't know the actual way towards arahatship. So Bahiya says, "Then who indeed in the world are arahants or have entered upon the path?" So the deva says, "There, in the northern regions, is a city called Savatthi. There the Blessed One now dwells, the arahant, the perfectly awakened one." So it took him quite a while before he got there.

"I wish to see that Blessed One, the arahant, perfectly awakened Buddha. The Blessed One has gone out for alms round, quickly, by the left, Anathapindika's park, and entered the city of Savatthi." There he saw the Blessed One walking for alms, graceful, inspiring confidence, peaceful in faculties, calm in mind, having attained supreme taming and stilling, guarded, disciplined in faculties. So obviously he's not a literal naga. When we look at the sharing of merit, we say devas and nagas, right? So here we're not talking about just nagas who are protectors of the Dhamma, but also nagas in the sense that it means one who is not tainted, one who is not bad, somebody who has attained to goodness, to wholesomeness, and perfected that wholesomeness.

So what does the Buddha say? "Therefore, hereby, you must train thus." Now listen very carefully to what he's saying here. "In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, only the sensed. In the cognized, only the cognized. Not shaped by that, you are not absorbed in that. Not absorbed in that, you are neither here nor beyond nor in between the two." Let's unpack this. You truly understand what this is and you make this a practice. You don't need to do anything else. These are the most direct, succinct, pointing-out instructions the Buddha has given to get to that space, which is Nibbana. He says, in the seen, there's only the seen.

In the seen, only the seen. In the heard, only the heard. In the sense, that is, the rest of the sense is in the smelling and the tasting and the touching. There's only that. In the cognized, there's only the cognized. Why did the Buddha say this to Baya? arise? Well, if I'm going to be in that way, that there's only the seeing, there's only the hearing, there's only this process going on, then what about thinking? How do I think about something? How do I reflect about something? How do I, if somebody's talking with me, how do I respond to them? How do I give them an answer if I'm just going with the flow of experience? But the reality is the mind will come up with a response.

out of the way. We think that I have gotten the insight. We think I am the one who's thinking up of an answer or thinking up of a response to this person's question or to this dialogue. But if you actually give a pause and you let that go, you can see, you can observe how the mind percolates and brings up a perfect answer or nearly perfect answer dependent upon the situation. The moment you do this, you are in your. And you're no longer in trying to figure out something, which is much more difficult than just going with the flow of intuition.

Now, here's another part of this. He says, not shaped by that, you are not absorbed in that. Not absorbed in that, you are neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. What do we mean by not shaped by that? In the original Pali, it's a very plain translation. It says, not by that. In other words, when you are not by the process of seeing, when there is no you by that. In other words, when there's no you that is defined by the experience, when there's no you that arises dependent upon that experience, then you are not absorbed in that. Then you do not get caught up in the process.

So in the experience, when we talk about the links of dependent origination, there is the sense basis, and then there's contact. You are experiencing something, that's feeling, that's vedana. In that moment, when the I is superimposed, the I, me, myself, is superimposed onto the experience, then craving comes. But when you get out of the way and allow the experience to flow just as that, when you don't allow an I to arise that is determined or dependent, or conditioned by the feeling itself, then there won't be craving. When that happens, then there's nothing else to do. This is total, pure, natural mindfulness that we're talking about. It's not a mindfulness that we are producing artificially. It's a mindfulness that comes quite naturally because when there's no you there and there's just a process, there's no possibility of craving for it to arise the gatekeeper.

And as soon as there's no you there being shaped by the experience, how can there be a you that goes into the experience and identifies with it? How can there be a you that is absorbed in it? How can there be a you that says that I am the owner of this feeling, of this experience? This is very subtle, very nuanced to understand. But if you just right now, in this moment, listening to me.

There is a process of listening to my voice going on. Just pay attention to that. In this moment, there is only listening. And there is reflecting. Notice the moment or that immediate second where there is an I who is listening. Where there is an I who is reflecting. Oh, this makes sense to me. Right? We're not talking about usage of language, although that will help to a certain degree. We're talking about really pinpointing the moment the sense of personal self comes into this process.

If you just listen to the words that are coming in from my voice, then just pay attention to the process of listening. There's only listening going on. But the moment you try to engage with that listening from a sense of self, what happens. Other thoughts come up, other reflections come up, and there's a possibility of mental proliferation to arise. But if you're fully engaged with the listening, engaged with the reflecting, without the standpoint of the conceptual I, then you are free in that moment. This is what we mean by mundane Nibbana or Nibbana here and now.

When you can truly engage in this way, there's nothing you need to do. You automatically follow the Eightfold Path because your mind will not allow itself to go into the process of telling a lie, to go into the process of cheating someone, to go into the process of stealing, to go into the process of harming someone. Because all duality collapses in that moment. When there is no you in that, when there's no you shaped by that, there's no you absorbed in it, then there's no dichotomy of me versus the outside world. There is just an impersonal process.

And this is the true meaning behind so-called non-dualism or non-duality. It has nothing to do with becoming one with the universe or becoming one with existence because that means there was two to start off with. And there is still a knowledge of me being one with the universe. There's still two there. that, then you just see the process.

You just understand the process. So what happens? You are traversing the edge between duality and non-duality. Why? Because there is the understanding, as Sariputta would say in Nangodhara Ndinghai, I think it's 10.6 or 10.7, where Ananda asks him, is there a space, a state, which is beyond all the jhanas, beyond all experience, where you are still percipient? And Sariputta says yes. And it is the perception or being percipient of Nibbana.

And how does that happen? Just as you stoke a fire, there is the fire and then there is an ember that spurts out from the fire. Just as there is that, there is the experience of being in Nibbana, which is in the experience, there's only the experience, no you there. Awareness that one is experiencing this, the knowledge of that.

This is where we are on the edge between duality and non-duality. I don't want to complicate things here, but I'm just giving you an understanding of this. The simple understanding is to experience, allow experience to flow fully. And the moment you recognize you take something personal by having the sense of I am the experiencer. Just relax that tension.

When you relax that tension, there's no more definition of this is me. There's no more standpoint of this is mine, this is myself. There's no more shaping of a person who's experiencing something. And therefore, no craving can arise from it. And this is why the Buddha says, this is the very end of suffering. Through this brief Dhamma teaching, his mind was liberated from the taints without grasping.

Then the Blessed One, after giving this short instruction, departed. And shortly after the Blessed One had left, a cow protecting a young calf attacked Baya and took his life. After giving this condensed instruction, the Blessed One went on his way. Oh, this is a misprint from me. So the word brahmachari has many connotations. And nowadays in the fake spirituality that we see in India, brahmachari is seen as celibacy. But that's a very poor translation of the word. Brahmachari, Brahma, right? Brahma is the divine. Brahma is the ideal that people go for. Achari or Acharya, the one who follows the path of the divine. So Brahmacharya actually means the spiritual life. So when you are following the Eightfold Path, you are following the Brahmacharya.

You're following the spiritual life. Yes, Venerable Sir, the monks answered. They carried the body out, burned it, built a monument, a stupa, and then went to the Blessed One, bowed and sat to one side. Sitting there, they said, Venerable Sir, the body of Baya the bark-cloth wearer has been burned and a monument built for him. Where was his destination? What was his state after death?

Monks, Baya was wise. In other words, he attained that wisdom, that transcendental wisdom. He practiced the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma. He troubled me with no questions that contradicted the Dhamma. In other words, he didn't say, but what about this? But what about that? He just listened very carefully. His mind didn't go in different directions. He was very steadfast because what did he say in the beginning? He said, I could die in this moment or you and the Buddha could happen. Something could happen to you. So let me hear it completely, fully in total engagement.

So there is no light, there's no polarity between light and darkness. All conceptual ideas have broken down. When the sage, the silent Brahmana, knows that for himself, right? So you enter that space of non-proliferation, the non-conceptual mind that is free of any artificial notions, free from all trying, free from any kind of control, and is just resting.

No conceptual proliferation coming out from that mind. All thoughts that arise just completely are liberated. In that space, when he knows that for himself, that is the signless. That is the emptiness. That is the undirected mind that we talked about. That is the anidassana vinnana, the non-reflective awareness, that doesn't reflect a sense of I compared to whatever it is experiencing. It is just allowing experience to flow.

Then forms and the formless, that is, anything we see in this world and any of the jhanas, any of the ayatanas, the higher jhanas, pleasure and pain, all experience are all released. In every moment, there is just cessation. This is the cessation that we want to be after, so to speak. Yes, there is a cessation of total perception, feeling, and that process allows us to touch the Nibbana dhatu, the Nibbana element.

But beyond that, the ability to bring that experience out as a conscious process of cessation is the mind of someone fully awakened. And that is the practice that we should all work for. Some, using something like the 6R's, allow us to do that. Using something like right effort, before right effort, allows us to do that. And it's as simple as coming back to the present moment and being aware of the experience that's happening, and just releasing the tension of the me, releasing the tension of the self, and being totally immersed in nibbana.

So, I will stop there and open it up for questions. I think in the chat there's something. Is the Bahiya Sutta in conflict with the Vedanta? Is the Buddha saying there is no Atma or no soul? The Buddha says, I don't care if there is a soul or not. It's not important. Inez. Hi, Nelson. Thank you very much for this excellent explanation. My question is related to the previous one, in the sense that coming back to in the seen, there is only the seen, and in the heard, there is only the heard. What I understood is that seeing and hearing and sensing and thinking are all processes, and they do not arise on behalf of an entity called me.

They do arise within awareness, within this non-reflective awareness or the ground. So can we say, in some sense, that awareness, or this non-reflective awareness, is the ultimate seer, sensor, feeler, hearer, seer? But it just allows these processes to arise without attributing them to it. So there is no sense of me, but it is still the ultimate seer and sensor and feeler. My question to you about that is, how would you know that? How would you know that the awareness is the ultimate seer here, and so on? It's just like the usage of language. I'm trying to find kind of a bridge between Vedanta and

The mind is always after looking for something that is permanent. And an awareness that is beyond everything that we can just rest in is the ultimate security that we're all seeking. But in reality, when we say there is just the experience of feeling, sensing, and so on, in the context of the Dhamma, consciousness is dependent upon the experience. rises in tandem with feeling and perception.

So when there is contact, there is an experience, or there's a process, I should say, of attention being directed to that particular experience. And therefore, there is a cognition of that. And that's what we refer to as awareness. So in that moment, there is just awareness of the experience, awareness of it. And there's another awareness of it. That's true. You can use language and say it's just a usage of language. But once we start to say something like, we conclude that there is the ultimate ground of being, as the awareness that is the one that is aware of all of these things, then it becomes artificial. Then it becomes something that we are grasping onto. Then it becomes something that we now have to keep producing. What we're talking about is letting go of all of that.

It doesn't matter. That's why I said it doesn't matter if there's a soul or not. The Buddha doesn't care about that. He cares about the cessation of suffering. He cares about ending suffering. And the way to end suffering is to end all notions of trying to find security, which is basically only found in Nibbana. But Nibbana is not awareness.

Nibbana is not awareness. Nibbana is beyond that. Like I said, there's a understanding of mind entering into nibbana after having entered into nibbana. It's a reflexive awareness. And so when we talk about non-reflective awareness, we're saying the awareness that is signless. There is still cognition going on, but there's nothing that is being held onto as an object from the perception or perspective of me, mine, or myself. There is no directed intention, because there's no I present there. And it is empty of any personal self. So when we seek to find a ground of all being, that is yet another layer of trying to find some kind of security. Because once we find it, what happens?

What happens once we find it? There is this sense of safety. Yeah. And Delson, I did not mean like the sense-based consciousnesses. I really meant the consciousness that you were speaking about right now. This is also what I'm saying. Non-reflective consciousness is also dependent. That is dependent upon Nibbana. So Nibbana itself is the only thing that's independent and permanent.

But it cannot be known as an awareness. The awareness arises dependent on it. So we only can know that we come in touch with the Nibbana Dhatu when this non-reflective consciousness arises. But the Nibbana element, we cannot know it using our mind. With our, okay, thank you, merci. Uh, David. Hey, thank you, Delson. Just for context, my question is in terms of the path of practice of reducing the habit of the I am. So, upon entering the path, the sense of self goes away, but there's still, like in the Kemaka Sutta, I believe, where he talks about the scent of the flower. So to reduce this propensity of the mind to create that sense of I am, if I understand correctly, and I guess I'm kind of leaning on teachings from Sridhan Niskardata Maharajan, is pointing out, would be to just be mindful of when that sense of I rises, such that you see it, it drops, and staying in that space of it not being there.

Right. Yeah. So the Sutta that you're talking about, the Kemaka Sutta, it's a really good one. Maybe, I don't know if I've done that yet. Maybe I'll do that in time, but it's a good one because he talks about that. And he says, just as there is still the scent of the flower, and just as there's this, there's still a lingering sense of conceit. You know, we say it as the I am, as it's translated in English. But he's talking about conceit, which is the measuring of me and the other. There's still an otherness there. And this is where we want to be very careful in making sure that we're not saying that once the otherness disappears, then we become one with everything.

That's still a fallacy, because then that means there was still some kind of oneness to achieve. There was still a me there to achieve something. The realization is that the world is as it is. Right? So that's the knowledge and vision of things as they actually are. The world is as it is. The only thing that changes is that the internal framework of always relating everything from the standpoint of me, that we take personally. Because there's a transactional self. There's a transactional of, okay, I need to do this and I need to do that. So we use the language I, me, myself. But in reality, there's no, it's empty. It's empty of all of that.

There's nothing there. It's all, it's a fugazi, you know, it's not there. It's just not completely gone, right? So in that sense, what you're referring to as the practice, yes, I would say that the practice is therefore to recognize and realize, ah, here's the mind taking this personally with the I am, and then releasing it. I find in this practice a great sense of fear arises within my heart center with that letting go of that. And in my mind, the way to practice with that is just to be aware that it's there, and again let go of that. Yeah, just kind of reflect on that and look at the fear and say, where is the fear coming from? But we say, who is fearing, right? And then once you do that, then you go all the way to the essence of where is that fear coming from, who is the feared one, who is the one who is afraid. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate that, Josh.

Hey, thanks for this. This is one of my favorites too. The way I connect with this too is the separating out of the senses, all right, because it's so easy to conflate the different senses together. But if you really look and investigate, they're all separate. And a lot of times we'll see, well, this has an effect on my body, or is the mind abroad with the sight? But to really look and to experience them all separated out, it's a whole different way to view our experience, or to experience experience. I don't know. And then it's, in a way, it's bizarre, because it's linked to these organs, the sense organs that we mistake for itself, like the eyes.

But imagine, well, another way I've used this too is someone that feels they're being psychically attacked. Let's just say that they usually conflate their inner experience with it having a direct impact on the body. But once they can actually see that there's this sphere or this realm of vision, a way that's completely its own, and that there has to be other things involved in order for that to, I don't know, breach or to go into the different other sense. I don't know how to put words to this, but really seeing that we often, or at least I know in my experience, I will confuse because things happen so rapidly. We don't normally see that these things are separate, in a sense, at least in the conventional sense.

So I've found that, in, you know, it can kind of go both ways. When we start, we're not ready and we start breaking down reality like this, in a way it can terrify people. But then in the other sense, it can be protective. So, you know, it depends, I think, where we're at in our practice. Like when we start breaking down the five skandhas into, you know, am I this? Do I own this? Is it in me? Is it outside of me? That can really break down our sense of reality. So sometimes that is frightening. So in that sense, if we're not ready for it, then I find these heart practices so nurturing and grounding and stabilizing before we start going and deconstructing reality first.

So I just wanted to point that out and see how helpful it is to really see the separation of the senses. And also all these physical organs too. You know, if that wasn't there, then what kind of experience are we going to have in that sense sphere or whatever? And then the mind is just so vast and mysterious. Like, what does it say? Is the range of the mind and jhana. It's just, you shouldn't ponder how vast and profound that is to its full extent, right? So, yeah. All right. What you said reminded me of the six sets of six in Majjhima Nikaya 148, because there the Buddha is referring exactly to this.

There's the eye, there's the ear, there's the nose, there's the tongue, there's the body, there's the mind. And then there are these sense-based consciousnesses. There are these sense-based contexts. Sense-based experiences, and there are these sense-based cravings. And he dissects each one, and he says, where is the self in any of this? And he looks at it. That's the essence of Buddhism in general, that conditionality and causality, which is dependent origination, right? That is the Dhamma. So starting from that standpoint, and seeing that this is actually conditioned, being conditioned, it is liable to pass away, which means it's unstable. Already holding on to it is going to cause you suffering.

And therefore, we just disengage from it. And that's what the Buddha says. He says he becomes disinterested. He becomes disenchanted by it, by seeing these things. And through that disenchantment and dispassion, his mind is liberated. So what do we mean by that? His mind is liberated from all notions of protecting everything from a sense of self. That fear mechanism arises, and this happens to a lot of people. And they're about to get into cessation, because the sense of self is hanging on for dear life, because that illusory nature is like, I'm going to disappear now. Somehow it has this understanding that this is what's going to happen. But then you go on to the other side, and you come back, and you're like, oh, what was the big deal there?

In fact, it was a wonderful experience, because now you've attained the Nibbana element in that moment, and then come out of it, experience immense joy and relief and so on. That's what we're doing with meditation. We're all learning how to die with grace, right? We're all learning how to just let go. Because in our final moments, it's not going to be about, you know, I wish I had done this, or I wish I had done that, or I wish I hadn't done this. We have to let go of all of that. And conflating any of that with this is me, mine, or myself, as you say.

Yeah, it's huge. Faith is so huge in all of this, right? And here, Westerners, our faith, it's a challenging thing too, for so many reasons we don't go into. But yeah, it's absolutely vital, even for absorption practices too. And yeah, these impersonal processes, just changing, just being open to consideration. Well, what would the experience be like if I just saw it as an unfolding process of processes that are due to causes and conditions, but also very lawful? They're not just happening randomly, even though I don't understand all the lawful processes or the laws coming into play here that govern, or, you know, they're subject to. But yeah, being open to exploring that too.

Yeah. There is an order to it, everything, right? And this is important to see in right view. It is not just random. There is a causation. There is a logic behind everything that's going on. And the last thing I was saying about that is, so in our last moments, what are we going to focus on? What are we going to think about? Are we going to try to find security in something, or just fully let go? Very hard, very hard in those moments. But the training of practice that we do with the Eightfold Path, the training of practice we do with wisdom and insight and meditation, will make it easier, make it more of a process of relief rather than a process of confusion.

Okay, anyone else? Yes, David. Delfa? Brian? Okay, go ahead, Brian. Yeah. Just a quick one. When you said let experience flow, it seems like it's just flowing by itself. I mean, is there some way that we're preventing experience from flowing? When I say that, I'm saying that there is an I that we attach to it, which makes it not just an experience, but makes an experience rooted in the self, in the personal self, attaching a personal self to it. Yeah, I'm trying to identify when I'm actually doing that or not.

Yeah. So I gave a little exercise in the talk today. I don't know if you were there, but it's just when you're listening to my voice right now, there is just the process of listening going on. But then there is also I, Brian, who's listening, right? So that I, Brian, which comes with all of its concepts, all of its identities, all of its preconceived ideas, that are sort of conflated with the experience.

That's what we're letting go of and just letting experience be experience. Oh, so while you're talking, I would be noticing when there's an objection or when I have my own idea about it. Is that what you're saying? Not exactly. I mean, that's more surface level. We're talking about a very intrinsic understanding that if there's just an experience of listening going on, there's nothing that needs to be done in that moment. But as soon as there's a sense of I am listening, that there's a me that's listening there, that's the beginning of the process of proliferating these other thoughts, from which you've lost mindfulness, and therefore there is the risk of craving and clinging coming to be.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to identify, when there is a me. It seems like I'm just listening. Good. Perfect. I don't see me happening. I think to myself, well, maybe I'm delusional, but it doesn't seem like I'm... it just seems like I'm focused on what you're saying. Good. Good then. Okay. If there's just the experience of listening, then there's nothing you need to do.

That's it. Yeah. Do that for the rest of your life. Yeah, because it seems like when I'm listening to music, I'm just listening to music. I don't own it or anything. It's just happening. Yeah. That's just total bliss. I mean, it's just so total enjoyment. You're right with us, especially the Beatles. I can't get over those guys. Oh, man.

Okay, Delson, thanks. All right. David. Yeah, for me, it's Metallica, so I can relate to the Beatles analogy. I'm thinking in terms of Majjhima Nikaya 121, 122, the Sunnata Suttas, and being in worldly life where, and that dance between duality and non-duality, abiding in emptiness and having to engage with the world. And if I understand correctly, it would be to not have a preference between one or the other, you know, kind of that subtle grasping to the signless, as opposed to, you know, having to be a dad and your kids hassling you to get money to go out with his friends that night. It's just, it is what it is.

Okay. Yeah. That's a very relevant question for all of us, because how do we traverse that process? And the short answer of that is just live your life. Just live your life. The thing is, our world is basically determined by our thoughts. How we perceive things is what our world is. So if we have the basis of this is an impersonal process and continue living our lives in that way, then there's nothing else we need to do there.

Yeah. The challenge, I mean, I can... I've been over the last day or two reflecting on the Buddha naming Rahula. Right? Because as a parent, that's a true parent there, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you love me, Dad? Yeah. The challenge is, and this comes up for me because I am a parent, that kind of thing of having that non-attachment to another being that you feel an obligation to help walk a good path. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that is the nature of the identity as a parent. It doesn't mean that we stop being parents. It's all about skillful means as well, using the Dhamma in such a way that we have the wisdom that is our foundation, and then using skillful means to see how we navigate through lay life as a parent, as a spouse, as a partner, as a friend, as whatever it is.

And so, in being a parent, we're just being a parent, right? We can use this in such a way that we are now in this process, completely going through the process of being a parent or being a friend, being a completely, totally unbiased as possible friend who's just listening, and there's no identity there which is doing what needs to be done in that particular role or in that particular context. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your Dhamma, Lucas, and it's always appreciated. Thank you. Anyone else? Hey, I just wanted to add here. You were talking about, I think you were talking about your meditation that you did preparing to die when you're on your deathbed.

You know, why keep going to the next life? Let's just be done with it right now. And that is a great meditation. And I am going to put it in the chat. Everybody, please do it. It's now, it's your first Vimeo guided meditation. And it's just fantastic. It's seeing that letting go of every little thing that arises that makes your mind move. You can hear, you can see, but the moment there's reaction there, you are. Yeah, it's just let go of that, and then let go of the awareness that's there, because you can be attached to just being in that awareness. Yeah, let go of that. Yeah, it's great. It's really good, really good.

Awesome. Okay, I think we can end it here. We can share some merit. Yeah. Of happiness, may beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power, share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. All right, thank you everyone. Thank you, thank you. See everybody next week.