How To Know If You Are Awakened (with Delson Armstrong)

You as well. I'm glad to be here today. I'm speaking with Delson Armstrong, and Delson is a meditation teacher. I don't know much about you. I just looked at you. You wrote a few books. One of them is called A Mind Without Craving, so it's really something that speaks to me. I haven't read it yet, but I would love to read it. And the other one is called Dependent Origination. So yes, I'm glad I'm here. When I got the email about you wanting to interview me for this podcast, I recognized your name right away, because I think you were part of, or you still are, I'm not sure, but you were part of the Liberation Unleashed forum. That's really one of the beginnings of my journey, where I had brought through the format forum and also gotten some guidance from there. So it's almost like I've come back full circle by meeting you now, all these years later. Amazing. When was that? A long time ago.

Oh, I think this is in 2012 or '13, something around there, right at the beginning. Yes. Interesting. Well, so welcome to the podcast. Thank you. And it's called Awakening Now. That's right, and it's all about awakening, right now, right here. Yeah, yeah. So to start with, I would like to ask you your definition of awakening. Yeah. I see awakening, as you know, I have to say first, I like one of the definitions that I came across by a Sarvan Buddhist monk named Monte Punaji, and he called awakening, or know, because their tradition talks about their man's awakening. When somebody asked him what that means, he said it means awakening from the dream of existence, and I thought that was a very poetic way of looking at it, and a very actually active way of looking at it, because in my mind, and from my understanding, awakening is, it happens right now, right here.

It's something that is beyond just words, beyond just concepts, beyond just ideas. And that's the only drawback, because there's so many ways we can point to awakening and what that means. What I would say is that awakening definitely creates a shift in one's view of all experience in this world. And some people call it non-duality. Some people call it the emptiness experience. Some people call it the experience of seeing things as they are, and so on. But I think, from an experiential standpoint, in my experience, awakening is nothing more than seeing things in a very impersonal way. There's a tendency for the majority of minds to see things as: this belongs to me, that I am a person, that I am a human being.

I am American. I am an Indian. I am a male. I'm a man. I'm a woman. Whatever it is, all of these different identities. Then there's the tendency for the mind to say, I own this, this is mine, this is my person, this is my mother, this is my father, this is my house, this is my computer, and so on. And then there's a tendency to identify with those relationships, and every experience that we have, there's this sense of I, the sense of me somewhere, that is always calibrating all experience from that viewpoint. And so awakening is turning the lens back and seeing that what we're experiencing as the me, as the myself, as mine, is actually just an expression, an impersonal expression of all experience. Trying to understand it, that's the way I think. And then when you have that understanding of awakening, when you have that experience of awakening

then it's not like you don't see things as mine, it's not like you don't see things as me, it's not like you don't see things as this is me, this is mine, but because you still use those terms, you still use those terminologies, you still use those words, um, but what changes is that harassment quality, that sticky quality of that identification process. So pure and simple, I would see awakening as the dissolution of the idea that there is a me there, that I am there. Wonderful, thank you. I don't know, something happened to your sound again, it's a bit choppy. Yeah, maybe I'll take the earpods off. Let's try. Because, how is this, is this better? Oh my god, that's like you came out of a bucket. Okay, good. Now we have awakened. This is the true awake. Oh, here we go.

For somebody who is seeking this awakening, I can't stop watching all these videos, reading books, going to retreats for many, many years. Like, how is that even possible, that there is no me here? I am. Yeah. So let's talk a bit about identification: what is that identification, how does that work, and what is there that identifies? Yes, this is a good exploration, because the process of identification, when we talk about it as some kind of process, there is a subjectivity that's there. So I am seeing you, and so now there is a subject-object. So I, as a subject, am seeing you as the object, and that's just the way things work in terms of the six senses, right? We have the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body, and then even the mind. And it's for the most part inescapable for all experience to be felt through one or more of these six senses, and so what we see it as is

experience, and then what happens is we then create an image around that experience. Mentally we create concepts around that image based on what we've learned in the past. When I see the color red, I'm perceiving it as red because in school I learned it as the color red, and my way of looking at red might be different from your way of looking at red, and so on and so forth. But very simply put, that's the perception, and the concepts that follow, based on my memory and learning of these experiences, what these experiences are. So I qualify these experiences through my mind. Then there is a process that takes all of that and says that I am the one who's experiencing this, that this experience feels pleasant to me, it feels good to me, and that too is a learned experience. It's a learned process through my many days, weeks, months, years of being in this life.

And I take it to be, oh, there is somebody here, this is me, that is looking at it now. What happens is, even when somebody is reading books for many years, watching different talks, listening to different podcasts and different teachers, there's a whole other world of concepts that are created from that. And so it's like, oh okay, so you're saying there is no self. Okay, so now the mind is implanted with the idea that there is no self, but that too is a viewpoint, that too is a perspective that

becomes part of the identity so it's a natural process for all beings i would say uh to to to create this division of subject object and then to want to own it to want to make it mine to make it mean it's it's a process and there's nothing wrong with that process that's the other thing to understand pretty useful you know in everyday life i mean otherwise how are you going to navigate through life how are you going to converse with people how are you going to do a podcast you know so so it's there's not there's no judgment against there's no value judgment against the idea of you know that there's a self there or that there is some identity there the the problem let's say or the challenge that arises is when that becomes um reified and what i mean by that is that becomes like the me that now it's something that i need to defend to such an extent that if anybody says anything to me or if i'm challenged or if something feels

harmful, then I cringe, I wince, and so now I create other concepts around it, and so on. So awakening is just seeing all of that and being okay with it. So learning, well, you could say learning, but also understanding through a process of experiencing through this new lens, through this new perspective, of how to navigate that and not get caught up in it, not get caught up in that whole process. So it's like, it can be a flash of insight where

oh, oh, now I see. Okay, this is what's going on, and then the mind relaxes into it, and because of it, and this is how I posited, is that there is a spontaneity to everything after that. Before, everything was coming from the sense of self, and so now it was like I had to think about how to produce my actions based on what I want. But now, because you're able to have this clearer picture, you are navigating through this experience that we call life in a very intuitive way, in a way that is spontaneous, in a way that is, um, beneficial, let's say, to you. Nothing wrong with that, but beneficial for others, not because you want it to be that beneficial, but because everything starts to smoothly flow in that process, in that

Way, yes, could you share a little bit how that realization showed up in your life? What happened? It's interesting for me, it showed up in so many different ways. I've had so many different experiences, non-dual experiences, starting from, let's say, 2011 or 12, when I joined Liberation Unleashed. I was going through this process of being, let's say, guided through what this means, and I was not able to see what was being pointed out. Then finally the pointing out came about, and it was like, oh okay, I see now. It was such an interesting shift in my perspective that for a few days I was just observing things as they are, or as they were at the time, and it was like a very sort of, like I was reborn. Everything was new, everything was fresh again because of this new perspective.

I have been doing other kinds of practices in tandem to that, which is known as Kriya Yoga, and in Kriya Yoga, because of the intensity of energy that you work with, it takes you to an experience of non-duality where all of a sudden the sense of I shuts off. The mind feels like it's shut off, and it's like you have... and so depending upon the perspective of the tradition that you're from, it could be understood that you've become one with the universe or the consciousness or whatever it is. I also did, let's say, more traditional Dzogchen and Mahamudra practices of pointing out the emptiness of the mind. This is somewhere around the time of

2013, and that kind of was a similar experience to when I saw the concept of self, or this process that we call self, that arises. It was a very deep experience in the sense that it was like I was looking at it, and throughout the day just being able to observe this full process of how self comes and goes and how it starts to grasp and

unclutch. And then a few other experiences that happened were with my practice with what's known as Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation, which is based on the Theravadan Buddhist ideas of what nirvana is. This process is rooted in what's known as the suttas, which are said to be the sayings of the Buddha or instructions by the Buddha. In that practice, over a course of about a week, I had multiple very interesting experiences, which are known as cessation, total consciousness where the mind just shuts down. Again, when it comes back up, in my experience there was a seeing of what they call dependent origination, of how this process of self arises dependent upon previous causes and conditions. That gives a very deep sort of experience of seeing through the concept and process of self. And also what's known as nibbana or nirvana, which is, let's say, an unconditioned experience. The unconditioned experience is kind of seen as outside of this whole process of self. It's like the self, or the idea of self, is being reverse

engineered and looking at what happens in the reverse order of how this process begins, and then also how this process unfolds. So those are, like, sort of the highlights of my many different experiences of, let's say, awakening or insight or understanding how self arises. How interesting. That sounds like a lot of dedication, curiosity, and going for it for a long time. Yeah, I was definitely, I mean, for a long time. I think everybody comes to it because they're looking for something, they're seeking something, and the one advice that I would give to seekers is that it's wonderful that you're seeking, but then when you are seeking, what is it that you're seeking? What is it that you're searching for, and who is searching? What, right? Because the idea of a seeker, it's like you're on a hamster wheel. Yeah, we're constantly looking for something, you're constantly searching for that particular thing that's ungraspable. And being ungraspable, the mind, let's say, becomes comfortable in that seeking, and it's just another layer of

personality. It's just another layer that becomes a part of self, and it actually takes you away from what it is that you're seeking. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Every time I meet somebody new, like for a session or group setting, I always ask this question: what are you looking for, precisely? Because I find that all this seeking mind is looking, just looking, it doesn't know what for. But when you really zoom in, what are you looking for, precisely? Then you start unfolding and start recognizing what is going on. Yeah, but it takes somebody to say, focus, what is it? Yes, otherwise the hamster wheel: oh, I'm so good, I'm so above everyone else because I'm seeking, I'm better than that drunk guy on the street because I'm seeking. Look at that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the layers of what I would call

spiritual ego, and this whole process of bypassing, because then what happens is the mind says, okay, I think I've gotten what I wanted, which is this very high attained experience, and now I've seen into the nature of things, and I have a non-dual experience, or I have nirvana, or I've seen the atman, or whatever tradition you come from. Then there's two or a couple of things. There's this idea of trying to hold on to that experience, because now the self has become very invested in that experience. And then the other thing is there is a sense of spiritual bypassing, right? So now I am above, as you just said, I'm above everything else, so I don't have to go do that. I don't have to deal with that trauma. I don't have to be in this relationship, because it's challenging, because I'm beyond all of that. I don't have to pay my bills, I'm beyond all of that. I don't have to do this, I don't have

to do that. And actually, that's the true awakening. It's a rude awakening, which is: just because you've had these experiences doesn't mean that you won't be less of a jerk. Doesn't mean that you won't be able to... you will still have to pay your bills, you will still have to deal with emotional trauma, you will still have to deal with relationship concerns and the problems of your life. They don't just go away like that just because you're awakened. What does change is you have a perspective now, and it allows you to really process, let's say, do the work instead of bypassing, right?

Yeah, I think it's difficult for the seekers that there is no magic pill, just to swallow that pill. That there is no magic pill. Yeah, that's the blue pill. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's a little disconcerting for people, because I've interviewed many people through my process of teaching and meditating, teaching meditation.

What happens is, depending upon the tradition you follow, or depending on the tradition that you want to experience, there are these hierarchies, and there are these sort of idealizations that happen. So for example, in Vedanta there's the concept of the jivan mukta, and in the Buddhist tradition there's a concept of the arahant, and so on. They're said to be that's your goal, right? You want to become a jivan mukta, you want to become an arahant, and then there's all this list of the perfections of such a being, or of the bodhisattva, or whatever it is. It's like the bodhisattva or the arahant is all compassionate, all loving, is kind all the time. They no longer fear things, they no longer have hatred, they no longer have greed. When you see them they're radiant, everything they do is perfect, and they're always aware and awake at all

times. Again, all concepts, all idealizations. This was a question that was asked. I was doing a Q&A session yesterday and somebody asked me this, like, what are the differences in personality changes you will see between these levels of awakening, because in the Theravada tradition, for example, you have levels. And I said, if I would tell you that it's like me telling you that an arahant wears a red cap, what's going to happen? Everybody's going to want to wear a red cap. So if I try to give you an idea of what this perfection represents, then all you're going to do is want to emulate that. You're going to try to become that, right? So it's always that seeking of an idealization that we have to look at and understand and observe, and then that dissolves, and the seeking becomes less of wanting to be someone or wanting to have something, and more of just being here, being present, and understanding things as they are.

yeah i see where it's okay what came to mind is that you know some people have this um pattern or conditioning of being perfect out of out of need for security out of conditioning by parents but then perfect me you know the picture of preferred me and if a speaker knows what is our heart or the end of rebirth or whatever you know that's just even more perfect me and that image is never attainable but it's so welcoming for the you know the perfectionist which is yes which is actually quite painful because that doesn't help at all yeah yeah so no nobody's perfect in that way i mean we are humans here living a messy human life among other messy humans in that way everything everything that people do in terms of techniques and uh processes and uh you know being in the moment and and observing and mindfulness and so on is uh just another just another pattern right of that need to do something i have to do something in order to achieve something which is that perfected idea of the me

And so if we can see those patterns, there is a lot of relief in that, like just realizing, oh, these are just patterns, and then being okay with it. In other words, it's like, okay, yeah, I have issues that I have to deal with, but I'm no longer going to get bogged down by them by trying to escape from them. You know, these are all kind of just escape modalities from the reality and the situation. People go to therapy, for example, because they want to deal with their problems. Some might do it because they want to escape from them, or they want to rationalize it, or whatever it is. Some people join satsangs because they want to be part of a community, they want to be part of some kind of an experience together. But all of these are, in some sense, coping mechanisms to escape from the me, escape from the reality of the, yeah. So, what would life without craving look like?

Yes, so, you know, what is craving? When we try to look at what craving is, mind without craving means that it's okay if craving is there. Uh-huh. So it's not getting rid of the craving, it's getting rid of craving for the craving to go away. That's right, that's right. A different level. Yeah, because there's resistance to that idea, right? I mean, creating the idea that I have to let go of craving. Now there is somebody who's craving the letting go of craving. You know, and so craving is another concept insofar as what we look at craving as. You know, the old traditions talk about craving as the mind that inclines and becomes obsessed by an experience.

Well, I would say that the mind that keeps looking for that perfection has craving, right? That's one kind of craving. So craving is seeking, craving is searching for something, craving is the desire to fulfill something, but it never is fulfilled, it never is satisfied, it never is content. So in a very practical way, a mind without craving, for the most part, has the quality of contentment, number one, a quality of acceptance, second, and a quality of being okay with things as they are. Yeah. It's rather than playing 2D chess, you suddenly realize there is 3D chess.

yes exactly so all that 2d can just go as it goes there's this stepping back being seeing the whole picture not what's going on as you are drawn into the pattern but the whole pattern is being observed yes and without without uh without a without judgment without um value judgment without uh trying to make sense of it just seeing it just to see as the scene sometimes it's only only a stopping is needed like stop right here what's here one of my uh very good friends and

Um, and, you know, a student of mine. I mean, he has been a student of mine. We were in India together a couple of months ago, and, you know, once in a while I'll just shout out to him heart (h-e-a-r-t), because as soon as the mind starts to get frazzled by this and that, like going to concepts and very highfalutin discussions about this and that, I'll just say heart, and then it's like, okay, all that drops and just come back here, just come back here, you know. And so you could use, I mean, it's another kind of mechanism, it's another kind of technique, let's say, but to just stop in that moment and then really feel the relief, and then see how none of that was you, none of that was, like, it was just an idea of what you think is you, and then all of these other things that come up as a result of it. Just heart. And then when I say, smiles, or he laughs, you know, and there's because there's joy.

In that it's stopping just right here. That's interesting. It's when you are looking at everything from that place, from the heart space, from present space, there's some kind of joyful giggle, which is peace. It's just that lightness is here. Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. You know, I mean, it is really about making it fun as well. And, you know, you see some of the old teachers of meditation, and they say, oh, the process of meditation is to end suffering, is to come to that experience of bliss and joy and equanimity and all of these things, but then you look at them and they just have these, like, very morose, you know, grimace on their faces. It's just very serious and tensed up, and like, okay, so that's what you found in meditation, is being very tense and grasping at things and holding on to concepts, you know? And god forbid you become fun, god forbid you have a little laughter and a

sense of humor, and be able to just enjoy life as it comes. And what does that mean? You know, I mean, that's another thing a lot of people say: okay, how else would you know if somebody's awakened? How else would you know if, uh, you know, this level of weight, and I say this sometimes in a very cheeky way or facetious way, but I also think there's some truth to it, which is, you know, you get more and more awakened to the degree that your sense of humor gets better and more open, right? Because that really is the case. Like, if you're able to have fun with the things that you're doing right now, then you actually stop seeking in that moment when you're having fun and enjoying whatever is happening, and experiencing that, you know, that giggly joy, or just even experiencing a level of, like,

relief with being with whatever is going on in that moment. You have presence. You have the presence of awakening. You have the presence of, like, ah, this is what it is, this is what you've been looking for, is the happiness, is the joy, is the fun, you know? And so I would like to remind people, like, please have fun with it, just enjoy yourself first and foremost. That's very sound advice. Yeah, because when there is seriousness there is no fun. Yeah, yeah, life is serious enough as it is, you know? I mean, we already see so many things going on in life. I mean, if you can find some humor in it, if you can find a way to just see it as it is and be okay with

it, then that's the other part of the spontaneity I was talking about in let's say the mind without craving, or the awakened mind. Spontaneity is also about finding the fun aspect of what is going on, and that spontaneous aspect of the mind, the intuitive aspect of the mind, does it in a way, or it looks at things in a way, or acts in a way, that causes natural joy to arise for oneself and for others around them. It's not because I want to be joyful, it's not because I want others to be joyful, or because the old spiritual texts tell me about this idea of joy. It is true wellspring that's bubbling up naturally and spontaneously from a mind without craving, where it's not seeking. And that's the spontaneous joy that a lot of people talk about. Yeah, that's a good measure. Okay, you can see other people are talking about all these stages and where you are, where you need to go, and it gets pretty

serious, and then people don't know, am I awakened or not, because I'm not there yet, or maybe I have this intellectual realization but I haven't got an experience. That's a very common thing. So how do you know that you're awake? You're having fun. Do you think all these levels and descriptions of stages are helpful? I think to an extent, uh, it helps to navigate the mind, because it creates, yes, like I said earlier, it does create, like, an idealization, and it's difficult for the mind to escape from it. But there are certain pointers, things to look out for, as qualities that arise naturally, not something that you need to emulate, not something that you have to try for, but more as, like, this is what can happen, or this is what is possible for somebody who's awakened. I mean, even now as we're discussing this, um, you know, I was talking about the wellspring of joy and spontaneity. What can happen for somebody who's listening to this and is in that seeking mindset

they're going to be looking for, and be like, okay, so I need to be more spontaneous, I have to find a way to be more spontaneous. If you have those thoughts of, I have to be spontaneous, now you're missing the point. And so what I look at is that these guides, these sorts of levels or stages, or, you know, concepts of what it means to be awakened, and all of that, I believe are realizations of those masters or those people who've experienced it, and are just giving their version of it as they see it, rather than like, this is what I had to go through to experience it.

And so what's happened is now that's become solidified as a practice, as a tradition, as a religion sometimes, you know. And so I think we have to see that these things are the realizations of past awakened beings, uh, for lack of a better term, and that those can be pointing instructions, like this is what to look out for, but not to become it, not to try to become it. So to that extent I think useful for communicating, you know, how it feels like and what it is, but not useful in making it something that I have to attain. Right? It's like an after effect. The after effect, exactly, exactly. Don't seek after. I just, like, to sit and be quiet, and then something for me lands in here, perceive it here, that okay, this needs to be said, and it's just being said. That's spontaneity. Yeah. That's funny. I mean, silence, being in silence and being okay with it, is also spontaneity, but it's being present to what is arising or what is falling, what is just showing up or what's appearing. In different words, it's just we are here as this.

Openness, this is kind, loving space. Yeah. And then something shows up, and then how we relate to that. And we're going to hold on, grasp, don't want to let go. Or we're just like, okay, this is here right now, this is how it is. It doesn't matter what comes in, what stays, it goes eventually. Right, right. In a way, like if you watch a movie and you are so drawn into the movie that you start thinking that you are directing it, acting it, and writing the script, and the script is not going on as it should, you get really nervous and really serious about it. But if you are just sitting on the sofa enjoying the movie, you don't want to know what happens next. That's right. You are amused by what's happening next. Yeah. You want to be entertained. It's an experience of letting things unfold.

Not needing to control how the outcome is going to be, or what's going to happen in the end. Is he going to get the girl, or are they going to fail, or this or that? And that's the process of the mind, always looking, okay, I have to control the outcome here. I have to control it to a certain kind of... again, but back to the idealizations, back to the idea that, okay, that's my end goal right there. Awakening is my end goal. And now I have to write the script, as you said, and I have to direct this actor to go towards and experience all of that. And then you lose sight of it, which is, it's all fun and games. It's all just a movie that you're watching. I love that analogy because I use it many times for the process of meditation as well, which is, when people meditate, or in my student base when

They meditate. There's a tendency for them to take it very seriously. You tell them, okay, be joyful and smile and take it easy and relax, and all they're doing is trying to relax. They're wondering, am I relaxed enough? Am I in this stage? Is this the proper posture? Am I meditating in this way? And so on. And they're losing sight of the beauty of the unfolding of what's going on.

Even if something like a hindrance, like a disturbing mindset, comes up. Even if something like craving comes up. Even if something like, oh, I don't like this person, comes up, or the mind just goes into a loop of different thoughts and ideas, thinking about the future and thinking about this, they feel like, oh, I failed. No, it's fine. It's the process of the mind. You saw it. The fact that you saw it and you experienced it shows that you were present, right? So you got caught up in it. That's okay. Like you would get caught up in a movie, but then at some point, when maybe the credits show up, or maybe you're hungry, or you have to go to the restroom, or whatever, you realize, oh, it's just a movie, right? And so that awakeness, that presence of mind, comes up again. So I think people get caught up, as you said, with the movie. They get caught up in how it has to end, or how this whole process is, and they

miss the biggest point of it, which is it's already there. It's already there. So who writes the script? Just tell the secret. I hope it's not Tarantino. It looks like, who writes the script? Yeah. Who's making it move? Yeah, who's making it move? What? Okay, tell me. If there is this consciousness that's doing it, then who's the consciousness that knows this consciousness? Then who's the person who knows this, and this, and this? And it's just like a big, like, Tower of Babel kind of thing: oh, it's this, then it's this, then it's this, and it's this, and then you have to just let it all humble, right? I mean, yeah, heart. That's it. Heart. It's a magic word. We're learning a new magic word today. I always said magic word is a thank you. Yes. Now the magic word is heart. How do you do that? How do you do that? I don't know. I don't know, somehow like that. Oh look, the heart's coming out of your screen. All seekers are looking for fireworks, like if there is no fireworks, if there is no confirmation

of that here i am now awake or enlightened that means it didn't happen but i think that the fireworks is when you are sitting quietly and mine start suddenly creating all these interesting stories images movies that's the fireworks so what we really are looking for is no fireworks like when it's quiet it's kind of opposite yeah yeah and i'm i'm glad you brought that up because again in my experience of let's say teaching um you see it and and that's one of the things you know in in my talks in these uh in these events i'll tell people like you know i'll be interviewing you like for 10 minutes and i'll be trying to understand where you are in your practice and so on but at the end of the practice i'm not going to give you a certificate that tells you congratulations you're awakened or you had this experience and all of that so don't come to me like a like you know or an overachiever like i'm going to be grading your results i'm

going to be like taking note of where you've been good and where you've been bad i'm not doing that at all so come to me as a friend and tell me what things are going what's going on and then we can explore it together and then i can give you some guidance um but there is that need for validation right there's that need for being certified or verified and and so on again where does that stem from where does that come from how is it arising if you let go of the need for validation if you let go of the need for you know this this this approval that's what it is it's a need for approval and and i believe it comes from a sense of self-worth that's that's present in the mind and it's been built up because of our experiences with our parents because they're our first interactions of the world and for majority of people they might not get that acceptance they might not get the approval that they're looking for and then they look for it from their teachers

in school they look for it from their co-workers they look at it from their employees or their employers they look at it from their partners um and and the world around like i have to be i have to be validated you know and and it's it's so innate that you know as soon as you let go of it there is so much relief there right there's no need to i mean are you supposed to validate you existing as you are right now show me proof that you're existing you know i you have to verify to me that you exist i have to validate that you exist i mean oh you just exist as you are that's the person you are that's it so the need to say like i have to be certified as i have to be verified or i have to be validated as somebody being awakened

they try to relax because they're doing it intellectually they're doing it like from the line where it's like everything is engineered okay so if i just relax this much then i'll have experience and peace and things like that again but it's spontaneous it's just like totally just stopping in the moment right here that's it nothing else to be done That's it. Nothing else to be said.

so if people who are listening if you're not awake just yet wake up yeah well but it's just that's just a joke i mean we all we all at the same level I would say yeah that's true that's very true and I would say the other thing is you know my my final like advice to people when they start to like go through this process of meditation I tell them like you know what meditation is you know what it is is basically um anything meditation prayer affirmations uh you know going to satsangs uh reading books self-inquiry you know all the different things that people have done and i've done myself what it is is it's a process to engage that part of the mind that it feels like it needs to do something and now that it feels like it's content with doing something that's when the real work begins which is to do nothing that's the most difficult thing for more people most people is to do

nothing and so you're just engaging you know that part of the mind it's like you're you're distracting the puppy like okay go go do this go do that and then it's like finally it gets worn out and finally you can just rest and it doesn't have to do anything and in that not doing anything there you have it there you are there you are right that noisy monkey needs some toys. Yeah. It's busy playing or reading. The rest of you can rest. I find that when I wake up at night and I cannot sleep or there is noise or dogs are parking or whatever is going on. I put on some quiet music on my iPad.

So that mind that is listening to the dogs rather is listening to the quiet music, and then they can sleep. Yeah, it's got its toys. And how can people find you if they want to engage with you and work with you? So I have a website. It's delsonarmstrong.com, and all my is there, who I am, how they can reach out to me if they want to speak with me, get my books, whatever it is. Just go on the website, it's all there. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. It has been fun. It has been fun. Exactly. This is like completely spontaneous, which I always love. I love it. It's amazing. And everyone, thank you for listening, thank you for watching. Tune in next week for more, and if you like, share or comment, you know that only helps the channel, so thank you for that. Bye for now. Till next time.