Talk 5 -Q&A Dependent Origination Conf with Delson Armstrong

Okay, who has questions? No, I just speak up, that's fine. The importance of the topics that were discussed today: a lot of them sound very conceptual. Yeah. Like, when I practice, I don't think about my next rebirth. And I don't even care so much what type of ducat comes up. I can see the six-hour discussion. So what would you want me, what is most important for me, or what would you want me to get from everything I've discussed today? Yeah. So when it comes to the birth, I know it was way out there because we talked about so many different realms and the cosmology and everything. But what I want you to pick up, if you can, and when you read the books, is primarily looking at the psychological aspects of it.

So, there are certain defilements, or certain levels of certain kinds of behaviors, that are associated with these different realms. So when we talk about realms, yes, you can talk about it from the cosmology of it, but you can also talk about it in terms of it being in the mind. So just being aware of what is present and what is not present. Is there a jealous mind, or is there a grateful mind? Is there an angry mind, or is there a calm and collected mind? Is there an unforgiving mind, or is there a compassionate mind? Being able to recognize those so that you can let go. Now, tomorrow I'll be talking about bhava.

And that's a big one. And that's going to talk about three things, actually. So bhava is one aspect. And then we're going to talk about the formations, which are rooted in three unwholesome states and three wholesome states: greed, hatred, delusion, and non-greed, non-hatred, non-delusion. And then we're going to talk about consciousness, with the different defilements that are possible and how to let go of them. So really what you want to pick up is how to maneuver these different defilements, if they're present in the mind, using the six R's and relaxing tightness and tension. That's the ultimate thing, really: how, you know, all of this could be saved up into one statement: observe and 6R's, that's it. So this is all just an elaboration, and for those who are interested in the cosmology, I'm giving that perspective as well. And with the dukkha aspect, it's also important to understand that just because anybody does understand dukkha, maybe there are some components which you still find unpleasurable, which are ultimately dukkha.

So I'm covering as much as possible the wide array of what is dukkha. I mean, I could say everything is dukkha, but what is everything? What does that entail in the mental experience and the physical experience? So from that perspective, you want to pick up: how does the mind identify with it if it does arise? How does the mind take the dukkha as be mine and myself? That's ultimately it, and that's the repetition that I'm going to be talking about. How does the mind identify with any of these states, and if it does, how do you let go of them? That's the primary goal here. Yeah, okay. Piggybacking on what you said: all you have to do is observe and 6R's, but the practice that you gave us yesterday seemed like there was more direction to it than just observing what comes up.

Yeah, so I'm a little bit confused. This morning I tried to follow exactly the... but I could not go through the steps of looking at each and analyzing each of the five aggregates. So please help. Yeah. So as I said, this practice is more of a contemplation practice that I think people will naturally grow into. I just wanted to introduce it as a contemplation practice that could be used as an aside. But in terms of the actual practice, the way to do it would be to just bring up, don't bring up anything, let it just come up. If you notice form, let go of form, just understand it's impermanent, you know, and dukkha, and so on. If you notice feeling, whatever comes up. I gave a little structure to it because it's just a guided meditation.

But whatever comes up first and foremost, that's fine. Even in the suttas, you'll see that he starts with form, then feeling, perception, and so on, because it's just from the densest aspect all the way to the subtlest, which is consciousness. He does that same thing with the four foundations of mindfulness. There is an idea that we have to do that categorically, even though he does categorize it in those four. But it's whatever comes up that you just observe and let go, if there's any identification there. And the five aggregates: I chose the five aggregates because they are the composite of basically the ways and means and experience of all of existence. So just continuously letting go of any subtle identities around those is the way to do it.

Yeah, thanks Delson for your time and energy. I have a question that's at the intersection of personal and Dhamma. So I believe I understand the idea of being an island to yourself, of refuge to yourself, right? And not letting your happiness or peace of mind depend on relationships with other people, right? And the personal aspect is, I'm happily married for 25 years with my husband. So I do think about the fact that, when I think about it, I'm of the nature to lose those that I love. He's someone who comes to mind, and that's hard.

Right, that's one part. The other part is, I mean, I'm good to the Nikaya 456, right? When this happily married couple asked the Buddha what can we do to be reborn together, he kind of tells them what to do. So it almost feels like, go for the goal, and I'm into myself, and never be born again, or do some kind of... I'm not a monk, I'm a lay follower, enjoy the pleasures of the world, whatever there is, and go for that. Or I know which is the higher one. But I don't know, I just feel torn, I guess, because I'm attached to my husband and my kids.

So I just wanted to have any comments. I feel like the doubt doesn't give me two answers. - Yeah, don't think too much. Well, I think if you think about it in this way, you realise that you have such a limited time with the people that you love. That's one way of looking at it. So would you rather spend that time getting upset and fighting with them? Or would you spend that time cultivating wholesome feelings with them? That's one way of looking at it. But yeah, if you want to follow the lay life completely, then there are instructions for that as well. The Buddha has given instructions.

How do I get to this heaven? How do I get to that realm, for a lay person? In fact, there's the Digha Nikaya, sutta 31, where he gives advice to lay people: how do you manage your money? How do you manage your finances? How do you manage your life and lifestyle? And what are your responsibilities in society? What are your responsibilities to each other as partners and spouses, or as mother and father and child and vice versa, and employees and employers, and all of that. So it's just a matter of where your mind is inclined to, and then go with it. Delson, I don't know if this one is slightly off topic, but in terms of imagination and effects on practice, what I see are... there's objects that come up and there's qualities that you wear.

But there's a third thing that seems to be the field of awareness itself, which feels a lot subtler than the other ones, but also in the long run has a huge effect, maybe as I was looking in the background there a little bit, but I don't care much to talk about it. So this is actually referred to as the signless state, and that was one of the goals for this practice that I introduced yesterday. As I said, it doesn't have to be so structured as I did with the guided meditation. I structured it in such a way that we didn't have to spend so much time and just get to the points.

But you can use any framework, whether it is the one that I use, which is 147, or 143, or six sets of six, or whatever. But all of that basically gets you to that field of awareness that you're talking about, which is the signless state. And there is mention of it in the suttas. I'll be talking about it later when I talk about Nibbana and Nirodha. The signless state is basically... I've given this analogy before: it's like you turn on your flashlight and point it to the sky and imagine there's nothing in there, in the sky and in space, and it's just this light of awareness that just continues but doesn't land on anything.

It's also known as anidassanam vinnanam, and I call that non-manifestive or non-reflective awareness. If you can get to that, that is a subtler state than quiet mind, because quiet mind is more like the mind itself as an object. But here you soften the edges of the mind, and it's just, I mean, you can call it pure awareness or whatever it might be, but it's basically the mind is so shut down that there's an iota of consciousness, and that consciousness is dependent upon a little bit of some formation or another that's there. In that subtle state you don't want to do anything, but just keep everything relaxed. Literally, don't do anything. When something comes up, in the seeing of that itself, everything softens. If you do anything more than that, then you come out of it, and there's too much effort going on, too much tension and tightness around the

Mind, sometimes it feels to me like we're sitting here in the room and there's all these people and stuff here. Probably you could take everybody out of here, and the room would be empty. But in either case it still has the same walls and ceiling and floor. And so often times you're sitting there with this stuff going through, and it feels empty. Yeah. People are empty, just at the same time. Yeah. Rather than get rid of the objects. Yeah. Right. Because all objects are inherently empty. Empty of self. What about the space element? How does that— Yeah, you mean like we have the five or six elements. Actually, if you think about space and consciousness.

So, within the body internally, it's talking about the different spaces, like the space of the ears, the nostrils, other parts of the body, other parts where there's just space between things. But the space element is also that experience, you could say, of infinite space or even nothingness. So when you go into infinite space, the mentality of that is the space element. It's basically the mind experiencing space element there. And then the consciousness element is the mind itself. The mind is made up of contact, feeling, perception, intention, and attention. So consciousness element is wider than the space element if you think about it in terms of subtleties. So the densest is the earth element, and then after that water element, and then after that fire, and then after that air, and then space, and then consciousness, because when we talk about mind as an element, because what would you call mind?

Is mind the brain? Or is mind in here? Or is mind in here? Or is mind all pervasive in the body? Because the mind is connected to other minds as well. You know, if you send out loving kindness to other beings, they experience it. And they're experiencing it through the medium of space, the space element. So mind and space, so mind is subtler and more malleable than space, but space is used as an information network highway to transmit loving kindness, to radiate and pervade loving kindness and compassion, or whatever it might be. Because sometimes things happen to us and we say, oh, it wasn't the right time, therefore it didn't happen. So is there a question I'm asking? It would be, is there a right time and a wrong time, or is it always the right time?

It's always the right time. But the cause and condition was not right at the time for me to understand that. And it was right for that time for it not to be right. No, it's like this. Okay, so we're going to get into some deep stuff now. What is time? Time is subjective. Time is, yeah, I mean, there is no time. There really is no time.

So when we talk about sitting for a certain amount of time and all of these things, that's just happening in our subjective awareness, that I sat for 30 minutes or I sat for three hours, or whatever it might be. And we say that we are 30 years old or 60 years old or 80 years old. And that's just because of the consensus agreement that this is the amount of time that's spent. Our time is different from the time that an ant feels time, or a deva feels time, or any other animal feels time. So the right time, when we talk about that, it's more like the causes and conditions were ripe for that.

Remember yesterday when I read the sutta where the Buddha saw that the time is ripe, or the mind, I should say, is ripe for Rahula to experience arahatship. It wasn't that it was the right time, it was just that the causes and conditions were in place for that to happen. Yes? I think time is a concept. Yes? So, how do you think it's a concept of anything in harmony?

Yeah, so time or any other concept is formed through our process of learning. As we grow up we learn certain concepts. Now you all will agree that this is the color white, right, unless you're colorblind. Maybe even, actually, if you are colorblind you would still say it's white. But how do I know that you are experiencing the same white I'm experiencing? It's just a consensus agreement that this is the color white, but your experience of white might not be the same experience of me seeing white, but somehow we're just in agreement there. The same with any other concepts. One of the most mundane and fundamental ones is like this table. This table is a table as long as there is this wooden piece here and then there's these four legs. But is it still a table when you take off one leg? You know, hopefully you don't, because I'm sitting here.

But anything is a concept, and the thing is the conditioned mind thinks in concepts. That's why nibbana is non-conceptual. You have to come to a point, and that's why the signless state is as close to being non-conceptual as possible, where there is no conceit there, empty of self, signless because there's no object, undirected. So it's, if we, with the concept, I guess the one that gets very vivid to me is the smell. Yeah. Right? So, smell of the rose, and if I have to describe it to you— yeah, exactly, exactly, yes. Everything we experience is experienced through

concepts. Everything we experience. Yes, absolutely. Your experience of jhana could be different from my experience of jhana, and her experience of jhana, and his experience of jhana. So then we could get to maybe a way of a consensus of what their experience is. Right? Yeah, yeah. And so in the suttas, with the factors of the jhanas, which is just primarily the piti and sukha in the first jhana, with the thinking and examining thought, we all know what that means. But our subjective experience of that can be different, and that's with anything, even the Dhamma itself. So we have to see that all concepts, even the concepts in the Dhamma, are really the raft, as long as it takes you from one shore to the far shore, as long as it takes you to nibbana. Right? And in that process you let go of that concept. Don't mistake it, right, when I'm— you have the finger pointing to the moon.

Don't mistake the finger for the moon. So it's the same thing. Yeah, using that example of the smell of the rose, it's the same thing as trying to describe nibbana, which we'll try to do on the last day, by the way. We can give you examples of what it isn't. I always talk about this example of sugar. I can write a whole PhD on the taste of sugar. I can tell you it's not bitter, it's not spicy, it's not sour, but it's sweet. Well, what does that mean, it's sweet? I could either spend thousands of hours writing a PhD on it, or I can just give you a granule of sugar, and you can try it, and you'll know what that means.

And I was just going to say that. Yeah, thank you for reading my mind. So with the jhana, so you say letting go of this Dhamma, it's like the whole concept around the jhana itself, dissolve it, let it go, and just observe, just experience. Experience, not coming up and going, that's it. And yeah, so even dependent origination, whatever we're talking about here with regards to dependent origination, it's all concepts to allow you to continue to let go. That's it. And for some people they require a little bit more for their mindset, more information. And some people, it's just they think in different concepts. Some people think in allegory, some people think in similes, some people think in color, some people think in sound, some people think in musical terms, some people think in military terms. So there's a vast array of concepts that you can dive into as, let's say, a Dhamma teacher, either from experience or from reading about it and correlating it, so that it allows the listener to understand the

deeper elements of it, for lack of a better word. Yes, Jordan. - First of all, it was a wonderful ride through the guided practice last night. Starting from a very basic level, very well understood, using various objects of meditation, correlated, I think as I saw it, through the brahmaviharas and jhanas, both.

And kind of landing with language that was really new to me hearing, but not to my experience. And that is when you said, now don't do it, and then they used another word to say just rest there. These are really simple words, but they're really profound because they gave a concept to an experience that we probably all had in some way. It was really great that it was crowded because we're all experienced and practiced at this, and so it's a wonderful life. But I'm just wondering, is there a kind of an alignment that you might recommend I look at to move from one state to another?

Because typically I'm not in a retreat mode. I'm in a life, let's get her done mode. Yeah. And then about an hour and a half, so I kind of start like you do, but sometimes I'm not sure about fumbling around to introducing another object of meditation or letting those objects go all together. And just, so it's sort of like, once I can get to equanimity, I feel like I'm kind of on the right road. Is there a sort of an axiom that you can refer to and say, it's sort of, these are, if this is such and such, then it's a good time to let go, let go in this direction.

Move more away from directing loving kindness to resting in equanimity. You can offer a little more language around how you built that guided practice. My intention with the guided practice was to basically introduce you guys to understanding how everything is impermanent. So taking you through the loving kindness, taking you through radiating in all directions, in each direction and in all directions, was a means to allow the mind to get collected, to get some level of collectedness, but at the same time, some level of equanimity and expansion. So that you don't start off the contemplation with a mind that is tight.

Because as soon as you start the contemplation with a mind that is tight, you might misperceive what's going on with the form, the feeling, the perception, the formations, and the consciousness. And that tightness and tension can cause the mind to get into a state where that sense of self rings alarm bells. And it's like, no, no, no, I can't look at this. This is too much for me.

But if you relax and keep the mind expansive and then you turn your mind towards that, because you have that foundation of equanimity, that was my intention, to bring some foundation of equanimity there so you can look at things as they are without being affected by them, without your sense of self being like, no, no, no, I don't want to look there. And then once you start to look at it, then you develop a further level of equanimity. So what I'm also telling you is, some of the parameters to look for when you do the meditation on your own: you start to notice that there's a deeper level of equanimity, there's a deeper level of disenchantment, and the mind gets into the signless. So the mind just drops everything as an object and just rests in that clarity. And that's, let's say, the last end point of this particular practice, where the next step is just over the edge into cessation.

Eroda? Eroda. So you're saying, like, there's nothing to do at a certain point but just to let go and relax. Yeah. Or whatever. It's like letting it unwind. Here's another way of looking at it. Whether it's this contemplation practice or whether it's the brahmaviharas practice, all of these are engaging that part of the mind that feels like it has to do something. That's all. But then when you get to a point where the mind that feels like it has to do something is relaxed, then you don't do anything. So the contemplation of the five aggregates is more for that. So I'm saying you don't need to analyze very deeply into it either. You don't need to investigate to a point where you're trying to get some insight. You're just engaging that part of the mind that feels like it has something to do.

And then when it lets go, don't do anything. Don't add to it. Don't take anything away. Just let it be. So that's the pivot. That's the pivot. And this one shall be known as the pivot. I kept following up on that. When I was going through the meditations, I noticed that there was a moment where, and I thought originally it was walking forward, where I went down, because it was like, where is... I went through, I was following him here, and it seems like he's over here, even though I think I was following him. And it was strange, but I just relaxed into it, because you get along with it. It was just a split second. Yeah. What would you say that was? Let's talk later. So, with the signless state, has your experience been that people have cessation and come in and out of that with no full nirodha, no nirvana, but they kind of link out without that full, full nirvana experience, and then maybe sometimes they do fall all the way out and come back?

Yes. So is that, would you say that that is similar to the territory you've seen in the higher jhanas, where people have that kind of tipping-out point, and some of them have experience with nirvana, and some of them just have cessation and like that? Yes. Yes. With the signless state, what can happen is it's so subtle, so subtle, just like quiet mind, but even subtler than that. It's like you're war somewhere. Or were you? You can't even tell. And whatever follows after that will allow, you know, the mind to understand what actually was experienced. It is an oh wow moment that happens. So this is a discernment that you said that was really important.

Yes, that's right. The discernment is basically, so what you put in matters, so that you know what comes out. In other words, you need the right view to start with, and you need the path to start with. And then the discernment, that is the discernment to be able to recognize what happened just prior and what happened just after that, will allow you to let go even deeper and verify or confirm for yourself what exactly happened.

Yes? This is interesting, because I've been just basically doing the jhana practice for a long time, but I thought the assignments came after the jhana, but I see now. Are you just teaching it as a contemplation that you think they share? So the contemplation is just the... it's a bypass to go there. Yeah, shortcut to nirvana. That's your sequel. To nirvana, for sure. Fast track, fast track. Okay, that's good. Yeah. Talking about the shortcut, in practical terms, a person coming off the street, to try to apply that shortcut to a new meditator, no way, you've got to do the jhana practice. Yes. Okay, it's not so short. Yeah, I know, but you know. So still the recommended practice, a very new meditator.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. A solid jhana practice, and then when the conditions are correct, introduce them to the sun. That's right. That's right. Yes. So we understood the practice yesterday was to try to pinpoint at what point I start to identify, you know, feeling, perception, whatever is coming up, and then recognizing it and just backing off. But then you maybe think, so the mind itself is an aggregate, then, correct? Like, wouldn't, if I'm thinking, oh, you know, I backed off, or I'm the one meditating, or anything remotely like that, my mind needs to be liberated. All of that is still identification. That's right. That's right. The dispassion comes when all of that disappears. Yeah, of course. Definitely. But it just depends on the faculties of a mind. Some can get it faster and some take some more time. Yeah, that's a good point, actually. Yeah, that's the other level. That's the whole other level. Who is dispassionate? Yes.

Yes, yes. That's right. That's right. I'm sorry? They are. I guess we have a consciousness link, nama-rupa link, but there's consciousness here again. So what is the nama-rupa? So the rupa is form. The nama is contact, through which you have feeling, perception, intention, that's the formations, and attention, through which consciousness flows. So these are faculties, these are mental faculties, through which the aggregates flow. So through feeling there is a feeling aggregate. Through perception there's the perception aggregate. Through rupa there's the form aggregate. Through intention there's the formations aggregate. And through attention there's the consciousness aggregate. If you want to be a little bit more confused, why is it then that there's contact after six sense-based, but it's also there in nama?

Yeah. Because the contact there is a process, an active process that happens. In the faculty of mentality, it is a field or an instrument for contact to happen. So just as you are able to see through your eyes, hear through your ears, contact as a process can arise because of the instrument of contact that's present at nama, at mentality. The process of feeling can arise because of the instrument of feeling at mentality. Likewise with perception, intention, and attention.

Can you repeat? You said attention, consciousness flows through the attention, formations went through intention, anything through perception? Perception through perception. I think we should add colour and form. Yeah, colour and form. Because without, I mean, I see forms, but without the colour, I don't know exactly. Yeah, that's true. Colour and form. So when we talk about the form aggregate, that is form in terms of the solidity or any of the elements, but adding to it the colour, the shape. Yes. In the context of what you were talking about today, in terms of different realms, one of the things that came up for me was near-death experiences. Yes. People who have experienced Jesus, people who have experienced marriage, some people who have been in the non-communist state and then seen themselves in the bed where they were dying and being able to try to connect with them.

So a near-death experience is also the mind experiencing the dying process it's just not come to full completion. So the dying process always happens in the mind regardless. So you know seeing angels or seeing Jesus or seeing devas or seeing the nothingness or seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and all of this this is all happening through the process of mentality. It's just not it's it's near death because it hasn't completed the entire process there's something calling it back and the ability for the mind to like kind of see what's going on like around it like you know you could see like somebody's having an operation done on them or surgery done on them and they can just see it that's mind looking up and seeing that experiencing that - Yeah.

- To follow up on similar to his question, the mindless, we had discussed the decline in the sense of that. - Yeah. - You know, starting out the smell with the first sense to go and mindless, alas, my question for you is, how long does this process take? Some cultures have really about not eating the body. - Yeah. - Because they want to show that they're not in time. This is my experience. So take it for what it's worth. It depends. But it can take anywhere from a few hours to a day or so. Maybe even three days.

Yeah, that's a bad death. That's a bad death. So there's no process that initiates at that exact impact? There is no time for the... Well, there is a time, but it's like the mind is so jolted out of that experience. There's confusion, like, what is going on here? And whatever it just clings to, it clings to. So that's a bad death. So that's why the Dhamma protects you from accidents and all of these other cases. Yeah, Bahia is a very interesting case, yeah. That's why I say, if you become an arahant, watch out for cows. Yes, exactly. You caught it. The dying experience is basically the same as the cessation experience, getting into cessation. What levels start to diminish?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he had made a comment that, based on his review of the sutta, he was actually open to the idea of a bardo state. I thought that was interesting. Have you seen an opening for a bardo state? The way I look at a bardo state is that it's still happening at the level of mentality. So the way I would look at it is that these bardo states that are mentioned are happening while the person is dying. So they enter through, and so some of the bardos are life review processes, some of the bardos are looking at different beings and things like that, and that's all happening in or towards the dying process. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, but it can be anytime.

Yeah, under certain, no to all to anyone. Yeah. Yeah. So this primarily works for hungry ghosts. But you can think about sharing the merit as a form of sharing merit as we do now. In the sense that when you send out loving-kindness, people feel it. People experience it. When you share merit with others, other beings feel it. So what's happening is you're allowing the possibility of a pleasant mental experience to happen for that being, so that they can experience an uplifted state. And so from that uplifted state, formations arise that allow it to go upward.

Yeah. So with that in mind, would it be a benefit of sending that loving-kindness to beings who have passed over? I mean, maybe family members or other beings? Absolutely. Yeah. Sharing that. Yeah, definitely, definitely. There's a benefit to doing that, for sure. Would it shorten their karma if you share merit to them, or would it shorten their karma if they were in hell or ghosts or whatever, left to your relatives? Well, that just depends on the causes and conditions that are present there. The reason is because if you're sharing merit with somebody who's in a hell realm, it's like you can look at karma, again, I'm oversimplifying this, but you can look at karma as being in a queue.

And so when one particular karma is exhausted, whatever's next in the queue will come up. But that isn't always the case either. It can happen that, because of the nature of that merit or the intensity of that merit, it can just skip the line ahead and help that person go into a higher realm. Yeah. I have a question, and this may be overreach, but we talked about being reborn in the lower realms just a little bit today, and can people, do you know or believe or think, that those beings can reach back into the human world and, I'll just say haunt, but somehow influence

Influence a human's life in a way that, you know, I read about angry ancestors who made you trip and fall and stuff like that, but I'm really talking about overt acts of harm here. Is that a thing, or is this whole line of question? No, I don't think it's absurd, but I think I would say that, you know, I can say in my experience and the way I look at it, there's only so much that such a being could do, but not to the extent of really viciously harming somebody in the human realm.

Now, if you have loving-kindness, there's nothing that can affect you. I mean, those beings, when they come into your field of loving-kindness, they get transformed. So the influence of the loving-kindness and the metta and the karuna is so pervasive that it is a karmic deterrent. It's a protection. We can, I can attest to it, and people who have come with me in India can attest to it too. Like when I was traveling with some people here, there could have been a lot of things that could have gone wrong. Well, there was one where we had to get to our hotel. And we were in a bus, and we were driving on the wrong side of the road, on full-on traffic.

And the reason why was because our guide said, it's okay, it's fine. We're just taking a detour. This is a shortcut. And so he changed the lane, and there were trucks and buses and cattle and rickshaws and cars, all just an onslaught coming towards us, and the bus driver was able to deftly maneuver through all of that. And there are other times where things could have gone pretty wrong. I mean, on another trip we missed a flight, but that was okay because we had more time to do other things. And so we were in a car, or a set of cars, where we had something similar to that.

But when you have a field of metta protecting the bus or a field of metta protecting the car, nothing happens to it. Even an onslaught of traffic. Just last follow-up. Yeah. I tend to, when I fly, I radiate love and kindness to pilots. Yes, good job. I mean, I try to just meditate, but it seems like I'm actually part of the crew. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've talked about it, where I go to the airport and the TSA smiles at me. It's a very rare thing. So yeah, your loving-kindness can have a deep effect on people around you, or even a very subtle effect. I mean, maybe you're standing in line at the grocery store and you're just waiting for the cashier to check you out, and the person before you, they didn't have a good experience with them, but now here you are with loving-kindness, and they see there's something about you, and their energy changes. So you see these little subtle things going on. It was really funny, because we missed our flight in both Gaia. The lady was smiling, wasn't she? She was just like, yeah, yeah, you missed your flight, yeah, you're never getting on that plane, yeah, that's right, that's right, that all the time.

- Yeah. - Just think everybody else's cancer is. - No, yeah. Yeah. - If this is up, just let me know. But when you were reading from the suttas, during the birth section, there was a part there about people who would have bad rebirths if they fought against karma and rebirth, or something like that. And it started jarring, because I just realized, oh my goodness, they don't believe in karma. No, I don't think they don't. I don't think they don't believe in karma. They do. Of course they do. If you do good deeds, will you not go to heaven?

Don't they have the corporal works and the spiritual works they do? But there is, like, God the punisher, right? Like you are judged and you either go to heaven or hell, but it's not the facing of karma per se. Like it's all purgatory, you know. We were calling it right, but we're calling it karma, but at the end of the day there is someone that judges you. And in this Buddhist realm there is no judge. There's no need for that, because karma takes care of whatever needs to happen, right? Causing it, like naturally? Yeah, not so. When I mean God can say, you know what, like people who were murdered, who were murderers their whole lives, or something, like at the last minute they were penned, and I was like, okay, let's let them in, right? But that was God's choice. So they don't, if we can call it karma, but they did not subscribe to this Buddhist view of karma. Yeah, exactly. They don't subscribe to the Buddhist view of karma, but it is, yeah, I would see, I look at it as karma.

I look at it as karma, because they're talking about ethics. They're essentially talking about keeping the precepts. They are. As you would do unto them. Do not, lest you be judged. I think we brought in a priest here to talk about it. He would probably cringe a little bit. Yeah, of course he would. Again, when I heard it on his face, it sounded like, oh my God, so these folks are going to hell or something. Or, you know, some. Yes. Actually, with respect to that, we could have a conversation another time about what Jesus discovered about forgiveness and what that does to karma.

Yeah. But the question I have for you, in light of the fact that time is subjective: would it not be beneficial to, in your meditation, send loving-kindness to a past relative or loved one who died years ago? Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Absolutely. On a quantum level, time can flow. Just, yeah, exactly. The world is a lot more complicated. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a spiritual friend. Yeah, but once you get to a point where your loving-kindness can flow just like that and send it to all beings, it's a step-by-step process. Yeah. Yeah. There are times when we're able to manifest things just by thinking about it. What exactly is going on? How does that even happen? And of course wanting more will be craving, but I'm just wondering, that there are times when I feel like I'm able to manifest whatever I think of, and how does that happen? Causes and conditions. So yeah, but it does happen. Like, you'll be thinking, I could really eat a good cheeseburger, and somebody suggests, hey, why don't we go to that cheeseburger place? That's very mundane, but it could

happen, but I would say there are no coincidences in the Dhamma. There are no coincidences. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. There are people who are sending compassion to different beings, and then it's like, I should reach out to that person, and they reach out to them, and that person wanted your help or wanted to say something. But are you talking about manifesting, like manifesting a Rolls-Royce or something like that? Yeah, yeah, like manifesting an optic of something? If you say, oh, I need this, in front of you walking, and, oh my god, that's right here in front of you? Yeah, yeah. Yes, it can happen. These are called synchronicities, and they're not coincidences. They're happening because the mind is able to quicken causes and conditions because of its intention. That's right.

Yeah. Might actually reduce manifestations of things like developmental, and if not, do you think that other comments, like all the servers, things like that, could enhance the manifestation system? Yes. Yes. And the reason I say that is because, think about it in terms of the experience of loving-kindness. It will allow, for example, the mother's mind to be uplifted, and that could probably have a direct effect on the unborn child, so that certain genes are present or active, and certain genes are dormant or remain dormant. And the same for the other side, the flip side of that: if you start to have certain kinds of thoughts that are not beneficial, certain kinds of thoughts that are unwholesome, I would say that has a direct effect on the physiology, not only of the mother but also of the unborn child.

But I'm confused, because you just said that we call this an effect. Everything just happened, so does it matter if I'm going to do it or don't do it? It's going to happen either way. One of my confusions is: is it predetermined? We just said that there's no free will, and so if I'm going to do it, that means I'm trying to manipulate something and hoping for a good result. And if I don't do it, it's going to happen whether I'm going to do it or not, don't do it. No, no, no, it's not predetermined. That's the thing. It's not predetermined. The intention, there's always intention there. So a loving and kind intention definitely has an effect on it.

- We talked about cause and effect. - Right. - So we said that the right time always happens, whatever cause and effect is. So if my karma was meant that I was supposed to be devolved, have a foreign-- - No, no, no, see that's the thing. The karma is not predeterministic. So here's a really nice analogy that was used by, I think it was Upatissa or Usivananda, but regardless, whoever it was, you think about karma as a set of different kinds of seeds. And you plant the seeds. Let's say you have an apple seed, an orange seed, and a watermelon seed. And each, by the nature of that seed, will grow at a certain rate.

Now, if you didn't put enough water, if you didn't add enough nutrients in the soil, or it wasn't getting enough sun, then that seed might grow slower or germinate slower, or it won't grow at all. So karma is not predeterministic in that sense. If causes and conditions are available for it to grow, it will grow. If they are not, then it won't. You spoke a lot about impermanence today in the Dukkha session and the way that it's linked to Dukkha. Then at the end, you mentioned that in one of the Arts, clearly he still enjoys impermanence, but there's no Dukkha, there's no clinging. So I'm wondering about the fascination of the Theravada Sutta with impermanence, and particularly the way that it then goes into the decay, the dissolution of things.

I know that when you spoke about it, all the diseases and mental disorders, all the myriad of ways that we can be harmed, and of course about the eventual death and the dissolution of the body, it triggers the resistances in me and helps them along. Yeah, yeah. But then I wonder, how come we don't do the balanced opposite view of things, as beautiful, as complete, as growing in complexity, as developing? Right? The beautiful, the enjoyable aspect of life. I know that for me, earlier in my past, if you said, oh, life is beautiful, I told you I was going to be pessimistic today. That's right. But yeah, I know what you're talking about. But please continue. Yeah, yeah. So the way to look at that is there's nothing inherently wrong with enjoying life and seeing the beauty of life, appreciating art, being in nature.

Indeed. You think about why the Buddha chose to be out in the forest, because it was so beautiful and so serene and quiet. You go to, for example, I was telling you about Jetavana Grove, going there and seeing it and being there. The energy is completely different. It's amazing.

So, yes, you can. And I think you could think about it in this way: the majority of the suttas are primarily geared towards the monastics. And the whole point for the monastics is to let go of any attachment to anything beautiful, ultimately. Why? Because they see that as a way of experiencing a deeper clarity of mind that is not dependent upon beauty outside. - Isn't that just more aversion to things that are still naturally part of the world? - In a sense, it's like overbalancing, pushing away rather than eradicating. - I'm sorry? - Rather than putting attachments, right, through the 6R's, to write a part of this faction, ultimately. It's like, instead of grasping, you're going into the aversion side.

And so I understand the notion of this being geared towards monastics and renunciates, but we're not renunciates. - That's right. - Yeah, yeah. It'll get better. - This is not a complaint. - No, no, I know, I know. But I know what you're getting at. - Yeah. - And also, I guess, your choice in teaching it this way, in a way that I think is still imbalanced. I think you were also saying that you see it this way, like pessimistic, right, versus something more balanced. Let's see both the ugly, the dissolution, the blah, blah, and the development of beauty and joy.

Yeah. But there is beauty and joy in the path, and that's in the jhanas. Right. Why are we limiting ourselves to a jhana? - Well, first of all, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And so dukkha, yeah, I suppose it could be one person's dukkha is another person's sukkha. But I understand what you're saying, that there is a lot of beauty in the world. - Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot of beauty in the world. There's a lot of things that-- - But then here's the thing: it's easier to be attached to that. It's easier to be attached to that. That's essentially what it is. If you could enjoy the world without being attached to it, and just enjoy it for the sake of it being there, that's the ideal. But the nature of the mind, so far as such, is that it wants more of it, or it fears losing it. So what we want to let go of is that more than anything else.

- There's also a wholesome craving. - Yeah, that is to say the chanda, the inclination to the wholesome. - Yeah. - Yeah. - One of my favorite stories about this, from years ago, I don't even remember where it came from, but they were talking about a student who had the experience of death in the family or something like that, and was grieving. And I came to a teacher, and he went out and saw it, et cetera, et cetera. And the teacher took this glass top of it and held it up and said, you know, this is beautiful. And the light and everything is clear, but the truth is lovely. But for me, I know it's broken.

It's just a matter of time. And for you, you might put it up in a cupboard and walk away and try to protect it, so it becomes a source of fear. But for me, I know that it's already broken. And so I just enjoy it as much as I can, because it makes me... And to me, that's kind of the essence of where imagination is not looking at the reality of death, because it's pessimistic confidence, but it's just realistic. And so what do we want to--

Do move around or do it here, and then exactly what I want to hear next. Yeah. And so, let's say, when somebody dies, but then the key there is: can you enjoy it? Well, you can. Yes, that's the thing. Can you enjoy it? Well, you can. But before you get to the enjoyment, you have to go through the training of death, the horrible, the nasty stuff, to let go of your version, and let that go. Then you can really, truly enjoy it without grasping and wanting it to last forever. But we can't. I guess one might argue we can't even enjoy what's beautiful without grasping onto it. So part of this, at least what I said, part of this training is: let's look at ageing, sickness, some deaths, and suffering, all this bad, pessimistic stuff, and then you can deal with that, right, and work on aversion and clinging and craving. Then you can truly enjoy what comes afterwards, because there will be no clinging and craving. Right, whatever you enjoy in that case, you could fully enjoy it in that moment, whatever arises.

Just don't go there. What's the point? And so it upends, or makes it like it's a bad idea, to nourish a child, to build something in the world, to help people, goals, even non-Dhamma. Yeah. So the way to look at that is, if you let go, if you truly let go of craving by understanding that it's the impermanence of an object, then you will just enjoy it for what it is. That's the thing. You'll be able to enjoy it as it is, without adding to it, without trying to think about what will happen in the future, and so on and so forth. But that can only happen once you uproot all of that stuff. So this is one way of looking at it. Well, as long as you approve craving, you can still enjoy something without wanting more of it.

I know exactly where you're coming from. Somewhere along the way, I don't know if it's a pseudo or it might have been something that you talked about once, Doug, but there was this analogy of a bunch of kids on a beach, and they were very blissfully building sandcastles. And the parents said, hey, you know that's going away. And they were like, yeah, but that's okay. I'm building the sandcastle. Look how awesome this is. And the wave would come in, and the way we take it away from it, and they were okay with it. Yeah. And when I heard that, I was like, oh, it's not all gloom and doom, right? And then my perspective shifted. And there you go.

That story's actually a text that I'm going to do. Did you use that? Was that in one of your books? Is that what it is? Yeah. Yeah, Jordan. I'd kind of like to rewind about Marie's question regarding birth of a being, and your response, as I understood it, was that there is an aspect of that for a couple who want a family, that may change their genetics in some way. And I really like that answer. And also, same with the whole thing being true for the potential husband, partner or father. So, the cosmology of that, is there an effect on the consciousness that may come to have it?

And is that productive practice? Because I know couples go through different processes before they have a family, and I just wonder how practical that is. Because I do have child-bearing age kids, and they're kind of grappling with this. So that's a really practical question. Yeah. So I would look at dependent origination, or any causation and causality, more as interdependent, just like mind, body and consciousness are interdependent. So you could say that for each of the links, and you could apply that on a micro level, and you can apply that on many different layers and levels. The reason I say that is because if you think about it, when the consciousness descends into nama-rupa, it requires mother and father, right? And so in a sense the consciousness will only go to that particular womb which is best suitable for the fruition of certain karma.

At the same time, just because it's done that doesn't mean that it is pre-deterministic. There are still other environmental factors that are affecting the mother's mind state, affecting the father, affecting what's happening in the biology of the mother, and so on. And so that can always change. It's always fluid, let's say. It's always in flux, what could happen. So my takeaway is that the more wholesome states that they abide in, individually and collectively, have an effect on what it may attract and not attract. Right, right. So that is a bit of a deeper level. Yeah.

Yes, yes. And the Buddha said to try to trace all the stuff down. Yeah. Yeah. There's some science now, in fact, and we're probably participating in it here. Yeah. Doing neuroplasticity. Yes, exactly. Yeah. On our brain. Yes. And I know I've read, and I can't cite it, but studies that show that meditators change their DNA. That's right. Yeah. I've seen a study also about, and the women of this group will probably like it because it's primarily targeted towards them, where it said that loving kindness could be related to slowing down the shortening of the telomeres, but specifically in women, which means slowing down the aging process for them.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But neuroplasticity, right? That's a big thing, and that is definitely Dhamma, which shows that our environment and our choices, everything that's happening, has a direct effect on our mentality. And that keeps changing all the time. Yes. Okay. So talking about some of these concepts with Pharma, everything that you're saying sort of really aligns with what Western is in materialism, like stress chemicals affect biochemistry, et cetera, et cetera. But you mentioned something earlier that was kind of outside of that paradigm when someone asked a question about giving love and kindness to ancestors who passed away. And I was just wondering if you could comment on that a bit more.

And also in terms of, you know, is it impossible to change current circumstances that have been led to bypass karma by sending love and kindness back in time? Or is that because it affects your body and your attitude and your mind, which has been affected by that ancestor, and like through material causes but also through psychological causes? Or is there something else? Is there an explanation that it's outside of material? Yes, there is. I mean, what I'm talking about when I say when we radiate metta, like when we're sending out metta to all beings, if there are those who are sensitive enough, they can actually feel that metta, somehow are able to feel it in their mind and in their hearts.

And how do you explain that outside of materialism? I mean, it's something beyond just the material. And that's the mentality part of it. I'm calling it mentality, for lack of a better word. But it's just this field of metta that you send out that's running out through the field of space and all beings who are in space are able to experience that or at least if they're receptive to it you can also have a choice of somebody is sending you metta right and you can say no i don't accept it i don't want it you could resist that if you wanted to now in terms of time travel meta we could try

it but the idea with in terms of ancestors and things like that what we're saying is they've already moved on wherever it is and they're no longer the same people that they were as ancestors they are now other beings but what you're doing is you're affecting what we call the formations the sankaras the building blocks of how the mind is created and the experiences are created and we're saying that metta can have a direct effect or indirect effect by uplifting their state of mind if they're receptive to it or if they experience it so that this the next set of formations that arise allow for a better wholesome state a better state of mind or a better destination let's say that's right for them for for their ancestors i'll just i'll just say a little about you know particularly in the west there's this idea that materiality is but material, physical stuff, is what it comes out.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's why I say never underestimate the power of forgiveness, you know, because it can have such a profound effect on so many things. You could look back on those same things that have been haunting you, with regret and remorse or whatever, and as you forgive it and you let it go and you accept it and it's okay, you can go back to that same thing and it doesn't have that same effect on you. Absolutely.

Yeah. Let me go, but then I come across that person, the way they react to me, and then a relationship has changed. So I do feel like it's two different things. Right. It's bi-directional. It's not just you, but it's also the person that you're forgiving, or vice versa. Yeah. Yeah. In that situation, we just came up, and I wonder just, I think that the beginning of the culture, for the Japanese nation of culture, whether it happens in some of the, the notifying and how we can, in that world, that, you know, whether that was the same or the same, you know, whatever, whatever that's called in that nation, I think that the beginning of the world is the beginning.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, just a shift in your perspective, just a shift in your thought, completely changes how dependent origination can flow in that moment. You forgive the person for whatever it is that they did, because they didn't understand in that moment. You forgive yourself. That's shifting your own, so to speak, flow of dependent origination.

Now, there's no clinging there to that. There's no identification there to that. So that is definitely having a direct effect on it. So metta, compassion, joy, equanimity, forgiveness, these are all karmic deterrents. They allow you to mitigate how the karma is experienced. When are we supposed to finish, Jordan? 8.30. Oh, okay. Long day for you. 8.30?

Yeah. All right. Let's share some merit. May suffering ones be suffering free, and the fear-struck be fearless. May the grieving shed all grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired, for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power, share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation.