Day-6 QA - Online 10-day Retreat (Nov-3) with Delson Armstrong

If anybody has questions... Hi, Delson. Good morning. My question is, once a meditator becomes a sotapanna, can the meditator lose that attainment? No, they cannot. Oh, okay. Yeah, so if a meditator becomes a sotapanna, a stream enterer, without fruition, what will happen is at the point of the dissolution of the body, at the point of death, they will attain fruition of sotapanna at that point in time. So, okay. So their attainment, once they become a stream enterer, is basically set. It's not like they can go back, because if they don't progress any further, let's say they do have fruition and then they go on to sakadagami, if they're not able to do that, at the point of death they will have fruition and the lower realms will no longer be open for them.

You were cut off for about a minute. Yeah, I said at the point of the dissolution of the body they will attain fruition of stream entry, which is where it becomes solidified. The doubt goes away completely, there's no more identity view, where there's a sense of permanent self in anything, and of course the belief in rites and rituals is completely eradicated. So even at the point of stream entry, where it's the entry into the path, those fetters are destroyed. The fruition is basically what solidifies it. But I also want to give one little caveat here: the fruition and the path are not always so clearly defined in the suttas. There is mention of the other levels of sakadagami and anagami, and there might be some places where they do talk about path and fruition, but they're not so clearly defined. Having said that, as I said, once you become a stream enterer and you pass away without attaining anything further,

at the level of death at the point of dissolution you will still have the fruition and you won't have any more that potential of entering any of the lower realms below the human realms. Okay, so fruition is obtaining nirvana the second time. That would become the fruition of solopana. That's right, yeah. Is that my understanding? Yeah. Okay, thank you very much. Between two stages like Shrutha Panna and Sakdha Gami or Sakdha Gami and Anathya Gami, can one experience Nibbana without entertaining the next stage? one experience nibbana without entering the next stage no once you have nibbana experience that unlocks so to speak the next attainment for you and then at the level of arahat uh when you have arahatship you can continue to attain nibbana over and over and over make it your object of meditation conventionally speaking but that's the end of the path at that point in time that's the fruition of the path so every time you attain nibbana it's the unlocking of a new attainment until you have full fruition at arahachal.

can you listen yeah i don't know if you heard what i said but uh yeah essentially i heard yeah go ahead but there are some there is some talk that people go in the situation for long hours who has become an account they go in situation for long hours but they don't become yeah because they're still identifying with the uh process of coming out of cessation there's still identification going on which means that the fetter of conceit is still there one thing i want to make clear is do not equate uh cessation and nibbana as one in the same cessation of perception and feeling as nibbana it's the experience coming out of cessation of perception and feeling seeing the links as they arise without any involvement and then making contact with the nibbana element now what happens is at the level of contact with the nibbana element there's some sense of relief that arises that relief is the feeling that that one experiences or that is experienced by the mind for the anagami they don't crave for that feeling which means they don't expect that feeling to continue to

be there but at the same time they identify with the dhamma they still identify with the process and there is still that conceit in them where they have this sense of i have attained this or i have experienced this the gateway into arahatship is to see that the whole process when it arises again after cessation of perception and feeling and you see the links there's complete non-detachment sorry non-attachment and complete detachment rather so there's complete non-involvement in any of the arising of the links and then when the mind makes contact with the nibbana element at that point that's just seen as an impersonal process that's seen as an impermanent process and not worth holding on to so even that relief is not held on to and because there's no identification and holding on to that relief the fetters associated with identification particularly conceit upon which the fetters of restlessness the craving for being and the craving for non-being rely or are based upon and then

ignorance is destroyed once and for all, because now you fully understand the four noble truths, no longer identifying with anything and understanding that any identification process leads to suffering. And so, because of that, the mind no longer is prone to do that. Do you mean that every cessation is not necessarily followed by nibbana? That is to say, if you can be in a state, when you are in the first jhana onwards, where you are completely letting go and not grasping onto anything, not grasping onto any of the formations that create the factors of the jhana, and by doing so you can attain nirvana from that point on. And then, of course, as we touched upon a little bit yesterday, there are cases in the suttas where there are beings who attain arahatship upon just merely listening and reflecting deeply on the Dhamma.

So, nibbana can happen even without cessation. Thank you. To add to that, in the Theragatha and the Therigatha, which are basically suttas from the very early monks and nuns, often they see something like a bucket with water falling over, and seeing the water flow out, and they attain arahantship. I'm guessing they are in a permanent meditative state with that, but it's not always in sitting meditation, I think. Right, exactly.

That's true, and just to round that out, to round out what you just said, regarding just seeing something and being able to reflect on it without having to be in sitting meditation: in the case of beings like Bahiya, who went to the Buddha and just listened to the Buddha's discourse on not-self, and saw not-self in any aspect of the seeing and the cognizing and so forth, he was able to let go of all his attachments, let go of all of the defilements, and then attain arahatship. So there are different ways that this can happen. It's not just precluded by cessation.

Thank you. Nelson, is the nibbana element, does the effect that it has on the body, like the relief that's felt afterwards, is that the reading, to use the word, like cool and soft? Yeah. There's not really like a solid... Is that how it can be experienced, like after the event? Yeah, primarily the feeling that is experienced after making contact with the nirvana element is the cooling that you just mentioned, the relief, and that primarily happens in the mind. There are sometimes statements by the Buddha where he talks about the body making contact with the nirvana element, but essentially that also means that the body is part of the mind as well. So it can manifest, in some sense, as a physical sense of relief. One of the ways that, for example, Bhante explains it is: it's like an ocean of suffering, and you have complete relief from that. It's like your shoulders feel so relaxed because the burden has been lifted and laid down. So in that regard it can feel physical, but it primarily happens on a mental level. Yeah, thank

you. Nelson, how are the seeds of kamma carried from one life to another life, because it's only consciousness producing other consciousness? Is that consciousness carrying the seeds of kamma? Yeah, so in the case of rebirth on the macro level, which is one consciousness linking into another mentality-materiality, at the level of death, or at the point of death, at the very deep layers of mind, you might have experiences, heard of experiences, where people have had near-death experiences or things like that, and what's happening is it's happening in the mind. It's happening in the mentality-materiality, and what's happening is the formations are arising and producing these experiences. And then that consciousness attaches to it through clinging, identifying, and craving.

And that happens with intention. So in the case of one who is experiencing death, there will be memories that arise, there will be other images that arise, and these are all different formations coming to fruition. And they're coming into the mind's eye, if you will, in the way of images, as I just said. And then if any part of the mind attaches craving to it, attaches that sense of ignorance that there's self here, then through intention of attaching to that formation, there is a new consciousness that arises, then spontaneously links with a new mentality-materiality at the point of conception, and then that consciousness drives forward all the formations that it attaches to. So those formations will be at the foreground of that birth.

And so it will manifest in the form of a birth related to those kinds of formations. Which is why at birth, sorry, at death, when someone is dying, it's important to keep them in a state of comfort. It's important to keep them in a state of good feelings and good formations and good thoughts and experiences, because that can relate to a better rebirth or better circumstances for a better rebirth. Having said that, that does not mean that there are certain formations related to negative experiences or negative kamma that won't come to fruition. They will still manifest, even if you have a quote-unquote positive birth or better circumstances.

And even on the flip side, where if you are in a negative situation, you have a negative birth, so to speak, there will still be the seeds of the positive formations that will still take root through the experiences that you have. So it's not necessarily completely black and white. But what I'm saying, to simplify, is that when at the point of death you see these experiences, if there's clinging to them, if there's attachment to them, if there's identification to them, the intention to attach to them drives forward the consciousness and transports or transfers all those formations and links spontaneously through that process of rebirth to a new mentality-materiality.

At the point of conception, and so then that creates the rest of the links of dependent origination on the macro level, to where there is a sense of being. At the level of when this, in the case of a human birth, where the fetus is born, and then their consciousness dissipates, and then more consciousnesses arise within the development of that fetus when it is in the womb, and then of course the physical birth happens for that being. Thank you. In some suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya, it talks about having attainments with an interval.

Is that to be understood that sometimes the next rebirth is not immediate, but there is a period seemingly as if kamma is searching for the best suitable option and that is called an interval yeah even this experience of the intervals or even let's say we go into other traditions of buddhism like in tibetan buddhism where they talk about the bardos and everything i would say that those periods of intervals don't happen outside of the mentality materiality they still happen within the same mentality so it might seem like it's an interval period between one birth or one death and the next uh rebirth but that interval period is happening in the mentality where the karma is searching for a suitable rebirth a suitable point of conception but so it's still within that mentality of that same uh being before they're dying so incredibly fast it is incredibly fast but seconds it could be split seconds it could be even faster than that but it might seem like it's slower where the karma is searching for it within the mentality of that being it doesn't it appears from what you're saying that everybody gives credit to consciousness

It gives far too much credit to it. Actually, it's in fact more likely it's form, right? Yeah, formations. Yeah, yeah, formations are, as I always say, the carriers of kamma. It's the kammic impulses, so it's always the formations that start to create the images, that start to form the images, and the feelings and so on. But it's the consciousness when it is, if you read possibly today's suttas, which is hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, which is to say that it takes that to be self. It takes the images that it sees to belong to a sense of self, and it craves for that being. So because of that, that intention of craving drives forward that consciousness.

That is why I mentioned yesterday as well that the faculty of intention, which is rooted in the mentality-materiality, it's through that that the process of the formations arise. And that gives way to the intention behind speaking, behind thinking and reflecting, and behind acting and breathing and so on. May I ask, so the intention after doing this arachachip, let's say, or after not taking it personal, have personal involvement? It doesn't vanish, but it changes? Or how is it, it's still there because you have to interact, right, with the world? Yeah, but at that time there's no identification with that intention. So in the case of an arahant, somebody who's fully realized and fully enlightened, as I said, ignorance is no longer conditioning or hindering the formations, and craving and conceit are no longer fetters within the formations.

So ignorance is replaced by right view. So always the being, the arahant, whenever the formations arise, it's due to contact. It's due to kammic contact. So they are experiencing the effects of old kamma, prior to full awakening. And so the formations, as kammic carriers, will take those kammic seeds, or the kammic effects of the old actions and old thoughts and old deeds and speeches prior to full awakening, and they will carry forward into the consciousness, which will drive forward intention. But all throughout that process, there's no sense of involvement of a personal self. It's just being seen with mindfulness as a series of impersonal processes.

So when something like someone like the Buddha or an arahant monk in the Sutta says, "It occurred to me," they're using conventional language, that the thought came into mind. But the thought came into mind because of the formations, and then the intention to say that maybe I'll go out for alms today at this place, or maybe I'll go visit these people at this place, and so on and so forth. So even all of that, even though it's using language that is very conventional, the understanding behind it deep down is that it's all impersonal. So there's no taking personal the intention, and since there is no craving or taking or identifying with the intention, because there's no identification there, the intention is completely void of any fettered formations, is void of any craving, is void of any identification. And so when that intention drives forward, it will still continue on without creating any potential for craving to arise, or any potential for identifying with the feeling that arises at the level of thought or at the level of the sensory experiences.

Could you perhaps make a drawing about how the links of dependent origination work together, because you often talk about circles within circles, and it would be nice to be able to visualize it a bit more in detail? Yeah. In further iterations we're planning to actually create sort of modules and create mind maps, so that you can see the circles within circles. But I will just say, because it is really a lot of different circles within circles, but just so you have a little bit of a general understanding, the formations get activated through the process of contact, primarily.

So the ignorance in a being who has not yet attained arahatship will still continue to condition the formations, but the formations themselves arise because of contact. So the process of contact, the process of feeling and perception, will then activate the formation, which will then drive forward a new consciousness, and then that will be experienced through the sensory experiences. Then at the level of perception there is another point where the formations, which are related to memory and learning, allow the perception to recognize the perception aspect of the mind, to recognize what that sensory experience is, or what is being cognized. That's another sort of circle that you see. Then at the level of craving, that can drive forward another circle, which strengthens specific formations that are fettered by craving and ignorance and conceit, whenever you identify with it. But any time that at the level of sensory experience you don't identify with it, you don't crave it, and you don't avert it, that actually creates another cycle in which the formations

that are rooted in right view start to get strengthened, and the fettered formations that are fettered by craving and ignorance and conceit start to weaken. And at a certain point, when there is a deep understanding, whether it's after the cessation experience or however one makes contact with the nibbana experience, there is an opportunity for those fetters to completely drop away. So it depends. It can happen in stages, where one gets into sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami and arahant, but whatever the way it happens, depending upon how, while the mind is in a state of non-grasping, non-involvement and non-attachment, if it's deeply non-grasping, not taking anything personal, the fetters will completely just drop away. It's the remainderless fading away of craving, the destruction of craving and conceit that happens at that point, because when the nibbana element is contacted and the feeling is there, if you don't identify with it, the conceit

that creates that identification process, because there's no activity there, it doesn't have anything to latch onto. It will just drop away. Likewise for the other fetters, likewise for the projections or the defilements. As a final question, perhaps, are the fetters ingrained in the final part of dependent origination, starting from craving? I mean, are they somehow within dependent origination? Yeah. So you have to look at it this way: it's always starting at the point of formations. So when, if let's go back, let's go back to the formations, all the way to feeling, all of that you should consider to be old kamma things that are the inherited effects of choices you made in the past, let's say. And then from craving onwards, that is after you perceive it to be personal, after you have the perception that this is personal and identified, and you have the craving, the craving then builds into clinging. So that clinging creates more of the accumulated tendencies, and that creates a sense of being. This being is what strengthens

the fetters of conceit and the projection of being. So every time there's a strong sense of being, it is actually strengthening the fetter of being and conceit within the formations that are being influenced by the projection of being, the craving for being or craving for non-being. Likewise, when you take personal sensory experiences, that creates a feedback loop that strengthens the fetters of sensual craving within the formations that are being influenced by the projection of sensual craving.

And as you continue doing this, this also strengthens the ignorance, which is you lose sight of what's going on, and you start to lose sight of the four noble truths, you lose sight of understanding how this entire process works. Delson, if I can ask one more question. Yeah. It appears to me that the formations, that you can see them when they're really, really subtle, and you can see them like almost like vibrating, or you can feel them shimmering, that insight can develop through that. So is that something to be observed, or is that just the instruction still to let go and to come back to your object? Yeah. At that point you want to continue to let go, because even within the meditation, if you start identifying with it by looking at it and paying attention to it, and then from there craving and proliferation could arise, you don't want that to happen. So the only thing to do at that point is always to let go of the formations

You don't want that, because what's going to happen is if you pay attention to the formations, it's not only going to create craving, it's not only going to create proliferation, but it's going to take you obviously out of the jhana, and then it's going to create further craving, which will create further formations. And so what you do instead, when you see it, is allow it to be there, understand that it's there, and in the 6R's, and then come back to your object.

Thank you. Let's share some merit. Can you see it? Yes. Please unmute if you wish to join on the count of three. One, two, three. May those we have thus ever acquired with the effort of the people's shape of all kinds of happiness, may the beings inhabit this most of the day and night, those of the mighty power, share this miracle, may they long protect the world's dispensation. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.