Origin of Hindrances and Cessation as a Pleasant Abiding with Delson Armstrong

It's 9.05 now. Welcome everybody. We're going to be talking about hindrances first, and then the most pleasant state to abide in, with some sutta references that Delson will share. So this is Anguttara Nikaya 10.61. It's called Ignorance, or the Avijja Sutta. I was actually introduced to this sutta by Bhante Dhammogavesi. As you might know from my background, I am now back in Mumbai. But while I was in Goa, I had the fortune to actually meet with Bhante for lunch, because he was doing a retreat there. In any case, he told me about the sutra. We were just discussing the sutras that we talk about during the retreats, you know, what are the sutras that we talk about.

He mentioned this, and I asked him, what's it about? I thought, great, this is a good sutra to use. So I'm going to just start off, and we can discuss what it's talking about, because this is said at a first point of ignorance, because it is not seen such that before this there was no ignorance, and afterward it came into being. Still, ignorance is seen to have a specific condition. So, important: what's he talking about? In the links of dependent origination, ignorance is usually the first link. Ignorance, then formations, formations then consciousness, then mentality materiality, then the six sense spaces, then contact, then feeling, then craving, clinging, becoming, the birth of new action, and then

suffering. But in one iteration of that, it's not said that ignorance is caused by something before ignorance. However, in Majjhima Nikaya 9, which is a sutta I often quote and work from, it's called Right View, Sammaditthi Sutta. When Sariputta is talking about the links of dependent origination, he says there is a cause and condition for ignorance. And what is that cause and condition for ignorance? It should be said, the taints, the asavas. And there is a cause for these asavas. It should be said that the cause for these asavas is ignorance. And so these two run around each other, creating the whole process of samsara, the whole process of rebirth.

But we'll explore this sutta specifically. So here the Buddha says, I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment. It is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said, the five hindrances. What are the five hindrances? The five hindrances are craving, sensual craving, aversion, doubt, restlessness, and sloth and torpor. How is it that they are nutriment for ignorance? How can that be said? The reason why the Buddha says that they are the nutriment for ignorance is because whenever the mind brings up these hindrances, or the hindrances arise, based on lack of proper attention,

they cause the mind, if the mind continues to have lack of proper attention, to identify with that hindrance. And by identifying with one or more of those hindrances, we have ignorance, because we are doing what? We are ignoring the four noble truths. We are not understanding that there is arising suffering. In this case, the hindrance is the suffering.

We are not able to abandon the cause of that hindrance, which is its continuous attention to it. We are not able to experience the release from that hindrance, because we are not properly utilizing right effort. Because with right effort, the 6R's, we're able to let go of the hindrance, and bit by bit we let go of the nutriment for ignorance. We let go of the hindrance and the nutriment for that ignorance, and we're actually developing panna, wisdom. Every time we're doing this, we're teaching ourselves how to let go and experience the four noble truths in every moment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said, the three kinds of misconduct. What are the three kinds of misconduct? The three kinds of misconduct are mental misconduct, verbal misconduct, and bodily misconduct. So that's basically breaking the precepts. That's what it's referring to.

You've heard Bhante say it, you've heard me say it, you've heard other TWIM teachers say it, that the hindrances arise because at some point or another we broke precepts. This is the sutta that talks about it. What do we mean by the precepts? Well, what are the five precepts? They are basically under the umbrella of these three kinds of conduct, or we should say the mental, verbal and physical proper conduct. So when we break precepts, we're experiencing three kinds of misconduct. What are they? Well, when we harm or kill living beings, that is a bodily misconduct. When we take what is not given, that's another bodily misconduct, or it can be a mental misconduct, because we have the intention to steal. We have the intention to harm as well. When we have any kind of sexual misconduct, that's again bodily, but again that's mental. When we have any kind of lying going on, gossiping going on, he said she said going on, then that is basically breaking the fourth precept. That is a verbal misconduct, or using harsh speech, using speech that causes pain to

others. And then intoxicants, indulging in intoxicants. There's in all five, there is the mental intention, there is the physical intention, physical action, and then there is the verbal, with either lying or using harsh speech, using speech that causes rifts, speech that is divisive, speech that is restless, that is unnecessary speech, and so on. So the breaking of the precepts, misconduct, is a nutriment for the five hindrances. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said, non-restraint of the sense faculties. What do we mean by non-restraint of the sense faculties? The word restraint here comes from the word samvara. And that means to hold. It means to put in a container.

It means to keep it within certain boundaries. And what are those boundaries? They're basically saying that what we have to do is be able to be aware of where our senses are leading us, so to speak. Are we getting caught up in the indulging of sensual pleasures? That is a lack of restraint of sense faculties. So with proper attention, what does it mean when we say proper attention? It means we understand the sense-based experiencing, contact with its object, and there is an arising of a pleasant feeling or an unpleasant feeling, and we see it for what it is. I'm going to give you some tips on how to do this, but I want to go through this whole sutra first.

So what is the nutriment of the non-restraint of the sense faculties? Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. What does that mean? Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness is sati, and clear comprehension is sampajanna. Together, these constitute the process of seeing things as they are and remembering to observe how mind's attention moves from one thing to the other. So when we don't have mindfulness, when we're not able to see what is arising and where our mind's attention is going, it gives rise to the overindulgence, the identification with sensual pleasures, that then gives rise to the misconduct, breaking of the precepts, that gives rise to the hindrances, that further deepens us into ignorance. And what is the nutriment for the lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension?

It should be said, careless attention. What do we mean by careless attention? We're talking about yoniso manasikara. Yoniso manasikara is an interesting terminology. Manasikara means to take something to heart. Yoniso means from the womb. Quite literally, yoni means womb. So when we're saying this, we're saying, what is the cause of something? That's what we're looking at. We're looking at with proper attention, or how I translate it, attention rooted in reality, which means what? Realizing and understanding, with proper attention, that whatever is being experienced right now is conditioned, and therefore arising and passing away, subject to change, and therefore subject to suffering, and therefore not to be seen as me, mine, or myself.

When we see this, we are in a very equanimous position in our mind. And therefore, we have strong mindfulness. We're able to truly observe, without any glitches, how our mind's attention moves from one thing to the other. When we have that, we obviously have an understanding, a proper understanding, of the sensual pleasures that we're experiencing. And then we don't have any misconduct because of that. And therefore, if we don't have misconduct, we don't have the breaking of the precepts, and therefore the hindrances won't arise, and no more ignorance can continue. What is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said, lack of faith. What is lack of faith? Right now, you're listening to what I'm saying, for example, or you're reading the sutta, and you're like, hmm, I'm not so sure about that.

There is a healthy level of skepticism, or let's say exploration into the Dhamma, but just lack of faith, which means like, I don't know about this sutta, or I don't know about what Delson is saying, or I don't know what Bhante said, or what, you know, what teachings are being given. There's a certain kind of confusion, and more than confusion, there's more like, I don't accept this. And if you don't accept it, if you don't have that faith, you can't progress on the path. Nobody's asking you to have faith in the Buddha like as if he's your Lord and Savior. All I'm saying is, when we do talk about faith, we talk about it in terms of taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

There's a certain level of openness in the mind to say, okay, I really want to hear and understand what is being said here. And then I'll make up my mind based on my experience and experimentation in terms of what is being taught and what is being conveyed. So that's one level of faith. And the other level is faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. So every time you take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and Sangha, what exactly is that?

What do we mean by taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha? We're taking refuge in the Buddha, not as the person, because there have been numerous Buddhas before Siddhartha Gautama. We're taking refuge in the fact that this possibility of full awakening is there. When we take refuge in the Dhamma, what are we taking refuge in? We're not taking refuge in the suttas, although those are representations of the Dhamma. We're taking refuge in the teachings in terms of dependent origination. We realize that this is all an impersonal process. I'm talking about a very high level, where once you've experienced this, you truly understand what it means to take refuge. We take refuge in the Sangha. Sometimes we mean the Sangha of friends, like-minded practitioners, the Sangha of bhikkhus. But at the very, very top level, highest level, let's say, we're talking about taking refuge in our own mind that has been purified.

Because if you are not friends with your own mind, you're not going to progress at all. You're taking refuge in the possibility of what your mind can achieve. And you're taking refuge in the mind itself, which is what you're living with 24-7. Even if you're secluded deep in the Amazon rainforest with no one there, or in the Sahara desert with nobody for tens of miles or hundreds of miles around, you're still there with your mind. So becoming friends with your mind, this is taking refuge in the possibility of that. So what is the nutriment for the lack of faith? Not hearing the good Dhamma. I don't know about that word. It's like not hearing the good news.

Sounds too much like some kind of Christian gospel. But not hearing the Dhamma, not hearing the understanding that there is a way out of suffering. There is suffering and the cessation of suffering. So not being introduced to the four noble truths, not being continuously shown that there's a possibility of experiencing the end of suffering by listening, whether it's talks like this or reading the Sutta for yourself. And what is a nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said, not associating with good persons. That's interesting. That reminds me of the flip side of that, where Ananda says to the Buddha, it sounds like a big portion of this practice and the progress on the path is spiritual friendship, beautiful friendship, Kalyana Mitta.

The Buddha says, no, Ananda, no. The whole of the path is dependent fully on beautiful friendship, supportive friendship, Kalyana Mitta. And it's so interesting, because we think about that in modern terms today. They say that you are the average of the five people you hang out with. This is what we see here with the Dhamma. What kind of practitioners do you want to hang out with? What kind of people do you want to associate with? It would be so great if your five best friends were arahants, because in no time you would become an arahant as well. But alas, that isn't the case, but we'll all get there somewhere someday.

So this process of associating with good company, what are we doing here? We've got all these possibilities of Sunday talks and meditating together. We've got retreats. We've got all kinds of stuff that goes on, and when we're doing that we're associating with like-minded individuals who are all looking for or pursuing the cessation of suffering, at least I hope so, because maybe some of you are just looking for siddhis or just to pass the time. In that case you're not good company. If you're looking for nibbana, then please hang out with me.

Thus not associating with good persons becoming full fills up not hearing the good Dhamma, not hearing the good Dhamma becoming full fills up lack of faith, lack of faith becoming full fills up careless attention, careless attention becoming full fills up lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension becoming full fills up non-restraint of the sense faculties, non-restraint of the sense faculties becoming full fills up the three kinds of misconduct, the three kinds of misconduct becoming full fills up the five hindrances, the five hindrances becoming full fills up ignorance. Thus there is nutriment for ignorance, and in this way it becomes

full. And then he gives a whole simile of that. And here this is interesting: he talks about the flip side of it. He says, I say this because true knowledge and liberation have a nutriment. What is true knowledge and liberation? The knowledge of the four noble truths that is experiential, and liberation from all suffering and samsara, from the continuous bondage of rebirth over and over and over again. And the nutriment for that are the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment are the way to deal with the hindrances. What is the nutriment for that? The four foundations of mindfulness. Interesting. What is the nutriment for that? The three kinds of good conduct.

Keeping the precepts. What is the nutriment for that? Restraint of the sense faculties. What is the nutriment for that? Mindfulness and clear comprehension. And what is the nutriment for that? Careful attention, yoniso manasikara. What is the nutriment for that? Faith. What is the nutriment for that? Hearing the Dhamma, the good Dhamma. And the nutriment for that is associating with good persons. So in other words, we want to be able to associate with like-minded practitioners.

There are so many different systems and models and people professing so many different ways of doing things. Here we are in the community of TWIM practitioners, and for some people they don't feel like they want to do that and they do something else. Good luck to them. So whoever wants to really progress on the TWIM practice should hang out with other TWIMmers, other TWIM practitioners, because that's how you exchange notes. That's how you're able to say, hey, what did you experience here, or does anybody know about this? I know there are Telegram groups, there are Yahoo groups, and all of this stuff that you guys do. So that's a really good basis. Damasuka is really at the forefront of doing that, always engaging with the TWIM practitioners. And so once you have that, then the rest is up to you. How do you want to take that? Do you want to apply the Dhamma? Do you have an openness to practice and really follow the instructions? Do you have the ability to not only follow but apply the instructions by applying the seven

factors of enlightenment? That is applying right effort, being mindful, restraining the sense faculties, using proper attention or careful attention, and letting go, and experiencing the true knowledge and liberation. You can still experience it right here, right now. You know what that true knowledge is. You know that it is these four noble truths. To what extent are you able to apply those four noble truths? Are you able to see the world and life and everything around you from that context? There was a time, I remember, when I spoke with Sister, who came up with a very interesting statement. She said, a lot of conflict can be managed by using the Four Noble Truths.

You can literally go and resolve conflicts. You can be a mediator and say, okay, what is the problem here? What is the problem here? What are you doing by doing that? You're understanding what the conflict is, which is the suffering. Then you're understanding what the causes of that are, and you come to some kind of consensus to resolve it. So the Four Noble Truths in and of themselves are an interesting, let's say, model, for lack of a better word. It's an interesting way of fixing problems, of finding solutions. The ultimate problem is suffering, this inherent suffering that we all experience in samsara, where we experience rebirth. Even if you don't want to believe in rebirth from lifetime to lifetime, there are the continuous habitual patterns that we get ourselves into over and over and over again, until we finally learn our lesson or die and do it all over again in the next life.

But when we're able to see this and apply the Four Noble Truths, we liberate ourselves from those behavioral patterns. I'm going to give you a couple of tips that you guys can do with regard to this. So I'm done with the sutta. I'm going to just stop sharing, and there we go. So, one is, when you are meditating, or when you are just going about your life and doing whatever it is you're doing, to what level of mindfulness are you having? This might apply to the more advanced practitioners, but I would suggest everybody try this at one point or the other. When you're sitting down, maybe you want to first just be in the jhanas, and then start to look at every experience that's

happening. And you could use the five aggregates as the anchor for that experience. You could use the six sense bases, whatever it is. There's the five aggregate meditation that I've done, the guided meditation that you guys can check out. But when you do this, what you're doing is you're creating a space between the I, the me, my, myself, and everything else. And so what is in place of that is this silent witness, this silent being who's mindful of every process. It's a nice place to be in. And it's where people get stuck, because that's where they say, oh, that's the Atman, that's the self, that's the soul, and so on and so forth. No, it's an arbitrary experience where you are mindful of things as they are.

Once you're there, and it might take you some time to be there, even when you're meditating, you can be in that scope where there is a meditation process going on. And I'm observing the process of jhanas coming together. I'm observing loving kindness flooding the system. I'm observing joy arising. I'm observing whatever it is. The second step you take is to do one of two moves. You have your choice, however you want to do it. You're deeply engrossed, not to say that you're absorbed, but deeply engrossed in being in that space of mindfulness from the sense of this silent observer. You apply the principles of the Bahiya Sutta. Sasutai often quotes it: what does the Buddha say to Bahiya?

In the seeing, there's only the seen. In the hearing, there's only the heard. In the sensing, there's only the sensed. In the cognizing, there's only the cognized. But what does that mean? When there is no you in that, by that, before that, after that, just that is the end of suffering. Which means what? Whatever the mind is observing from the standpoint, from the vantage point of being the observer, let your mind lean into the experience. I've said this before. Basically, the cessation of suffering is to experience everything fully, good, bad, or indifferent, pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, without adding the sense of I into it. But now here you are observing the experience.

Now, all you do is shift from the experiencer having this experience, where you're mindful of this experience, to just the experience and nothing but the experience. And when you do this, the sense of the observer melts into just this beautiful experience of pure, unadulterated, unfiltered vedana, without any craving tied to it, without any identification tied to it. That's the first move. Or you can do the second move, which is you flip your attention into where is the observer. As soon as you look for the observer, the observer disappears, and you're still back in that same place where there's only the experience, in the experiencing there's only the experience, in the meditating there's only the meditating, and nothing else.

And the more you do this, the more you are naturally mindful of everything without the vantage point of someone to be mindful of something. And it happens naturally. And when you're in this process, it's a total cessation of suffering. You don't get caught up in this. You don't get tied up in what he said or she said. You don't get caught up in all of these different elements that cause us suffering. So I'll stop there and then open it up for some questions. If you guys have anything, any questions, if not we can move on to the next subject. But there's a question in the chat.

Oh, okay. Well, you kind of answered it. So he's just... okay, it's very helpful. Yeah, perfect. Okay, the next short sutta, right? Yeah. Okay, let me share my screen. Okay, is this good? David looks good. Yeah, yeah, it's great. Okay, so this is Majjhima Nikaya 31, the Shorter Discourse in Gosinga. I'll just read the introduction and then we'll just kind of go into it, because there's a whole bunch of stuff in there, but it's interesting. It says: Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Nadika in the brick house. Now on that occasion the venerable Aniruddha, the venerable Nandiya and the venerable Kimbila were living at the Park of the Gosinga Sala tree wood. Then when it was evening, the Blessed One rose from meditation and went to the Park of the Gosinga Sala tree wood. The park keeper saw the Blessed One coming in the distance and told him, 'Do not enter the park, recluse. There are three clansmen here seeking their own good. Do not disturb them.' Venerable Aniruddha heard the park keeper speaking to the Blessed One and told him...

friend park keeper do not keep the blessed one out there's our teacher the blessed one who has come then the venerable aniruddha went to the venerable nandiya and the venerable kimbila said come out venerable sirs come out our teacher the blessed one has come they pay homage to him they wash his feet and then but that asks are you keeping well he says yes we're comfortable not having any trouble or living he says i hope you're living in concord with mutual appreciation without disputing blending like milk and water viewing each other with kindly eyes. Yes, we are, he says. And how do you live like this? Well, here it is. We maintain acts of loving kindness, verbal acts of loving kindness, mental acts of loving kindness.

What are bodily acts of loving kindness? Well, maybe somebody is in grief. Just touch their shoulder and send them loving kindness. If they feel comfortable, you hug them. You know, I always like to hug my friends, because it's a way of exchanging that loving kindness. Verbal acts of loving kindness: being supportive with each other, telling each other how great they're doing. If they're having a bad day, cheer them up, see what you can do to cheer them up. Mental acts of loving kindness: having that ring or sphere of loving kindness around you, and anyone who comes into that sphere is encompassed by that loving kindness. So he goes through all of this, talks about the practicalities of what they do, and so on.

Why not, venerable sir? Here, venerable sir, whenever we want, by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception, we enter upon and abide in the cessation of perception and feeling, and our taints are destroyed by our seeing with wisdom. Venerable sir, this is another superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding, which we have attained by surmounting the preceding abiding, by making that abiding subside. And venerable sir, we do not see any other comfortable abiding higher or more sublime than this one. Good, good, Anuruddha. There is no other comfortable abiding higher or more sublime than that one.

So cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness is the highest state that one can achieve in terms of the supermundane experiences. There's an interesting point here. It says, here we enter upon and abide in cessation of perception and feeling, and our taints are destroyed by our seeing with wisdom. Does that mean that they continue to destroy their taints all the time, every time they go into cessation? Or does that mean that he's just saying it the one time? That's the question here. What does he mean by that? So later on it says, here, then when the Blessed One had instructed, urged, roused and gladdened the venerable Aniruddha, the venerable Nandiya and the venerable Kimbila with a talk on the Dhamma, he rose from his seat and departed. After they had accompanied the Blessed One a little way and turned back again, the venerable Nandiya and the venerable Kimbila asked the venerable Aniruddha, 'Have we ever reported to the venerable Aniruddha that we have obtained those abidings and attainments that the venerable Aniruddha in the Blessed One's presence ascribed to us, up to the destruction of the taints?' So here they're all

admitting that indeed they have experienced the destruction of the taints, the khinasava, which means the destruction of the taints, and that is another word for someone who has become an arahant. 'The venerable ones have never reported to me that they have obtained those abidings and attainments. Yet by encompassing the venerable ones' minds with my own mind, I know that they have obtained those abidings and attainments. And the deities also have reported to me, these venerable ones have obtained those abidings and attainments. Then I declared it when directly questioned by the Blessed One.' That's Anuruddha's answer. So what are we talking about when we say this cessation of perception and feeling, and our taints are destroyed?

The taints are destroyed bit by bit, to some extent. What does that mean? We have three taints, in some accounts four taints. Three asavas or four asavas. And these are avijja, or ignorance; kama, or sensual desire or sensual craving; and bhava, or existence, or becoming, or habitual tendencies. And the fourth one is actually ditthi asava, views, which is all about wrong views. So bit by bit, these taints are destroyed. In the case of one who enters the stream, what have they destroyed? They have destroyed wrong views. They have come to what is considered right view under the good Dhamma. They understand right view in terms of the mundane right view: that there is mother and father, there is meaning in giving, there is karma, there is a give and take.

There are those who have understood for themselves this Dhamma and they teach it. And the supermundane, which is the four noble truths: there's an experiential confidence that arises from that. The kama asava goes away, that is to say the sensual craving, the obsession around a sensual experience, goes away at the third path, that is the anagami.

And the remaining two asavas, which are ignorance and bhava or habitual tendencies, those are eradicated when someone enters the fourth path, when they become an arahant. So the way of experiencing the destruction of these taints bit by bit through these levels, through these modes of awakening, or let's say levels of awakening, is done through the cessation of perception, feeling, and consciousness.

Granted, it can happen that upon hearing the Dhamma the mind immediately enters a very deep state and understands right view completely, and therefore eradicates wrong view. But it takes more effort, that is to say meditational effort, to come to the destruction of the rest of the taints by entering into cessation. Once you are able to do that, at some point you can actually willfully and intentionally enter cessation whenever you want. And that is what is known as the nirodha samapatti, the accomplishment, the attainment, the ability that you have mastered to be able to enter into cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness. There might be still one or two taints left to destroy, or when you are fully awakened, no taints are left to destroy, but you can still enter that state.

And this abiding, as it were, is the most pleasant, so-called most pleasant, because it is free of all experience. Even pleasant experience is painful in the end, because when it is impermanent and changes, the mind feels burdened by the disappearance of that pleasant experience. But with cessation of perception and feeling, there is no experience. And this is why, when Sariputta was asked about this, 'Why do you say that the cessation of all feeling is Nibbana, yet you call it pleasant? How is it?' he said, 'By the fact that it is ceasing all feeling, it is pleasant.' It's the ultimate pleasant experience, or lack of experience, or non-experience. Because there's no more sensory

traffic of data entering through any of the sense bases and then creating an image and creating concepts and creating this world, which is samsara, and leading to further rebirth, habitual patterns and so on. In that cessation, absolutely nothing is there, and the mind has the capacity, if it's possible, if it's ripe enough, to touch the Nibbana element. That's why cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness is the highest, because it's from there that the mind is able to enter into Nibbana. And from that contact with the mana experience, a super-ordinary, supermundane, otherworldly kind of relief and bliss and sukha, or comfort, can go on for hours, or even sometimes a day or two, because it's so unlike anything else you've ever experienced, at least the first time around.

And this is that post-cessation, post-Nibbana state, where you have the contact that is empty, empty of any kind of self, the contact that is undirected, because there is no intention in that Nibbana element, the contact that is signless, because you can't take Nibbana as an object. It is just there. It's the substrate of all. And the mind just touches it. And you cannot know it directly insofar as with your senses, your mundane senses. The mind touches it because the mind encompasses all of it. And from there, you can experience total liberation. And that's why it's said, "and he knows the mind is liberated." And so one says, birth is destroyed, there's no more renewal of being, and so on and so forth.

So aim for cessation as much as you can. But when I say that, I don't mean that you need to crave for cessation. I mean, put all of your direction towards cessation. Every time you're able to let go, you are that much closer to cessation. Every time you're able to recognize a hindrance and let go, you're that much closer to cessation. When you are in the eighth jhana, every time you notice the arising of formation that your mind gets caught up in and you relax, you're that much closer to cessation. When you least expect it, the mind enters into it. This is what happens when you want to experience Nibbana, the total destruction of a fetter or the diminishing of a fetter in the case of the Sakadagami.

And when you do this eventually you'll be able to actually practice that accomplishment of cessation, being able to intentionally go into it. That requires some practice, that requires some ability, that requires some skill and understanding of how to time going in and out of different channels, and so forth. So that is the end. Okay, very good. One thing this reminds me of, the cessation, is, you know, when you go to a movie, a drama, a thriller, you know what they start up with? Like 15 or 20 minutes of bang bang, you've got to watch this movie, you've got to watch that movie, and it's always at the end of that, and everything stops, it's like, oh, relief, you know? And I thought, why not? Okay, forget the rest of them, forget the movie, let's just stay in the relief state without samsara. Anyway, do we have questions? Emilio, I think you had a question?" Yes, thank you, David. Hi, Delson. Awesome.

I was thinking back to the two tips you gave in the first Sutta, and I was wondering if that can be a practical way to experience this, which I think is called non-manifestative consciousness, where the consciousness doesn't create materiality, or I have a wrong interpretation of these two tips. I wanted to ask you, Delson, about that. Oh, we're getting into some technical stuff here. All right. So yes, the short answer of it is yes. When you are able to come from that witness mode and then let the witness mode completely meld away, then there is the non-manifestative consciousness, which means the consciousness that doesn't take root in the creation of further karma, and so on and so forth. It's the non-reflective, because the mind is free of any kind of conceptualizing or mental proliferation, or a conceptual reflection.

Say, okay, well, thank you for the tips, because you know sometimes you understand conceptually things but then you don't know how to experience that in a practical life. I'd all in meditation that these were very good tips, thank you. But one of these days I'll try to do a guided meditation, either on retreat or when I get a chance to do a guided process where you can make these tiny moves and experience that. Yeah, that I would appreciate, that one. Thank you very much. Say, Antra, does that answer the question? You and I were talking about this Sutta, and I just wonder if you had anything else about that, wherever you are here. Yes, yes, it does. The other thing that I got from Docent's discussion is that super mundane and superhuman are interchangeable as terms in the Suttas. Yes, and yeah, it answered some of the questions. Yes. Yeah, Mark?

I wanted to offer a technique that I've been using with the five aggregates. I was trained with the Mahasi Sayadaw technique of making mental notes of the consciousness, and so I kind of morphed that a little bit into using the mental notes of the different types of aggregates. And simply, when something was going on, using that note just to not identify, but just to be aware of what was happening in the present moment. The interesting thing was the expansion of something like form, all the different ways form could be experienced, and that was still form, and yet there was no identification of it, but there was the simple knowing that this is the consciousness that was happening, the type of consciousness that was happening right now. And so it became a kind of, I don't want to say playful, but an interesting way of being mindful, and yet at the same time noticing what is taking place.

Right, yeah, I think that's a great point, because when we can start to see these five aggregates from that knowing, and then realize that all form, whether it's this body or this microphone or this chair, or near or far, or, as the Buddha says, subtle or gross, it's all formed, and so we start to become less and less identified and totally non-identified with it. Yes, thank you. Thank you. In this, you had a question, David?" Thank you. For the Dhamma talk, my question is how to let go of the sense of observer or the sense of self when we are in quiet mind or when we are in that open awareness. So I've noticed that in my practice the sense of self is still there, and it's subtle. So how can we go to really this open awareness without the sense of observer or the sense of self?

I would say one is it will naturally happen, where the mind starts to let go of the conceit. The sense of this is me, mine, or myself starts to loosen up very naturally as we continue to relax. Just keep doing that, keep letting go, keep letting go until there's nothing else to let go, and then everything ceases. Let it happen as a natural process. Okay, yes, thank you very much. And maybe a second question, and maybe we can discuss this in a further session, is to talk more about how to enter cessation at will, as you described today. So what are the factors that lead to that? So if we can talk about that in upcoming sessions, that would be really great. Okay. Uh, we can, basically.

you're going to have to first uh really master the ability to enter into different jhanas very very much in terms of the time of how long you're in that jhana both at the macro level and at the micro level which is to say like very random times like four minutes and 23 seconds in jana one as you keep doing that and eventually uh you know four seconds seven seconds in jana one and then you just keep doing that with each jana but that that is all after a certain level of accomplishment let's say where you have some degree of entering into cessation or having had a few experiences of cessations in a natural way and eventually because your mind starts to loosen up a lot of the resistance that could arise from being able to do that so it takes some level of patience lots of patience and some level of consistent study

practice and effort that's the short answer but you know there's there's what we call determinations and that happens at a certain level of practice thank you very much delson tony yeah hi thanks thanks delson um two questions i have i guess it seems that um in order to get into cessation i mean it can happen anytime but you need to get to that signless mind and quietness so that seems to go through neither perception or non-perception to get there um is that the right

Well, the thing is, the Sutras, that's how they're crafting it, right? They're basically talking about the different levels, so that people, when they read 2600 years later, know that there are these jhanas and then the formless attainments. Having said that, there are a couple of references in different Suttas where one can experience Nibbana from the first jhana onwards, which, if we were to dissect that a little bit, could perhaps mean that we can experience cessation from the first jhana onwards, since cessation is the gateway to the Nibbana element. So I'm venturing to say that it can happen from the first jhana on. Highly difficult, given our minds, but possible. Okay, now I guess the other question is, there was a line in the Sutra saying that we enter and remain in the cessation of perception and feeling, and having seen with wisdom, and it goes on

So the nature of cessation is that you don't have the mind activities going on. Cessation of feelings, perceptions, everything, and then you come out. I guess the first few moments they would be images, etc. So are they referring to the fact that there might be a state of the cessation that you can observe, or are they referring to the moments you come back from cessation, when you can see with wisdom only? We had Venerable Aniruddha to answer that question, but in the nature of cessation you are not aware. I mean, that's the nature of cessation. So I don't know if you can see anything with wisdom. Um, yeah, generally, the understanding, and with his seeing with wisdom, that's basically coming out of cessation and seeing the links of dependent origination, so that wisdom arises, thereby the taints are destroyed.

Right, yeah, thanks. Okay, there's a question in the chat. It sounds like there's two different ways to attain Nibbana using Sutta number one, doing the seven factors of enlightenment, is that dry insight, or Sutta number two, using the jhanas? Well, it's actually the same thing. You can't have the jhanas if you don't have the seven enlightenment factors. Yeah. I've talked about this, discussed this in my book Mind Without Craving, where the seven enlightenment factors are present in a jhanic state, therefore it's referring to the same thing. Yeah, I see. Just to add to that, in the jhana, is it the hindrances are abandoned? Is it so in the seven factors of enlightenment, which is part of the jhana, to get to jhana? They're both a way to get to jhana and also constitute jhana. Right. So, if I guess where I'm going with this is, say for example, you're not in a jhana and you have hindrances still going, but you can still get into these states of the

formless without going through the forge on us would, um, and if we're doing the 6R's we're technically trying to get rid of the hindrances, right? When we use the 6R's, which is the right effort, we're actually awake. We're actually balancing the enlightenment factors. Each of the enlightenment factors is intertwined in each step of the 6R's, and that can happen for the first jhana, or that can lead us into the first jhana, or it can lead us directly from the formless attainment from infinite space onwards. I guess where I'm getting caught up is: we wouldn't have, if in the jhana the hindrances are abandoned, we wouldn't need the 6R, right? Well, if you have to use the 6R's, then we're not in jhana. That's basically as simple as that. Okay, okay, thank you. Yeah, I might add that to Steve. The dry insight is referring to, I think, the Mahasi style vipassana, which really is talking about not using the jhanas to attain vipassana, but it does use concentration of breath on the walking.

So there's really a kind of absorption style concentration using noting. And the Buddha always talked about using the jhanas. And early on when I started doing vipassana, I had read a lot of the suttas, and the suttas kept saying jhana. And then I went to vipassana and he says, no no no, jhana is too hard, and you'll get attached. And I thought, okay, well why is this in the suttas? And it's not... well, you know, I'll take your word for it. You say you can get there faster, quicker. Okay, well, I went to vipassana, I didn't get there faster, quicker. It went somewhere else, but it came back to the jhanas. But this dry insight idea, this is a Visuddhimagga idea, and let's just get back to the jhanas. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, thank you.

Okay, so who, let's see, there's no Virgil, Virgil, in the chat. The Buddha talked about the eightfold path, but in the Satipatthana Sutta he calls that the direct path. Some schools of Theravada take this as an indication that mindfulness can take them to nibbana without samadhi. Are the jhanas mentioned in the Satipatthana Sutta at all? Okay, so we were just talking about how the seven enlightenment factors kind of constitute the jhanas, because once you have the enlightenment factors in balance, then your mind is collected enough, and as long as it's collected enough for a long period of time, you start to get into a jhanic state. Yes, it is mentioned in the Satipatthana insofar as the mindfulness of phenomena, or mindfulness of

Dhammas, which constitute not just the mindfulness of the hindrances, which is to let them go, but the mindfulness of the cultivation of the seven enlightenment factors which lead to jhana. Which is why, actually, in the eightfold path, if you think about it, it is one leading to the next. Right view leads to right intention. Right intention leads to right speech, right action, right livelihood. All three of these help you to experience right effort. Right effort leads to right mindfulness. When you do the 6R's, your mind is mindful again, and that mindfulness, when it's further collected, leads to right collectedness, right samadhi, and that is constituting jhanas. Okay, any... oh, uh, each way. Thank you very much, very helpful. So good friends are important, I need all the way to liberation. I just have two quick questions, if we have time. The first, this will be the last question.

The last question, I've got to go soon, but go ahead. You've got the two questions. The first one is: is the neural determination, I say, a natural process before completing the path, or is it not necessary to complete the path? Not necessary. There's only one way to find out. Well, no, it's not necessary. Okay, thank you. So the second one, for fun, David mentioned this movie example, right? You bang bang bang, then relief. But for a liberated mind, when it's bang bang bang, like with mindfulness, how is that? You know, just a very brief answer is fine, I'm just curious. How is that? What are you saying exactly? How does that mind experience it really? So when the movie, when you're watching a movie with a liberated mind, you're also, I suppose, I don't know, maybe fully mindful all the time, but when the movie is going on and off, you know, all these things, bang bang bang bang bang bang, how does the mind... I suppose you can still fully enjoy the movie, right? You still have the, like, physical

senses going with the plot. I don't know. I'm just so curious before the movie ends, how is that, like watching a movie with the full mindfulness? So this is why, in one of the suttas, it says, you know, somebody asked Sariputta, what is your practice now, how do you practice now? And he says, I practice the four foundations of mindfulness. That's my practice. Which means even as an arahant continues to be mindful of all experience. So there's a full immersion, or, if I don't have to say immersion, the full experiencing of the movie, but there's no longer any getting caught up in it. Um, it's interesting we use the movie analogy, because there's a similar analogy used by Bhikkhu Nanananda in his Nirvana sermons. He talks about the arahant's mind, which is like a vacant gaze at the movie. Like you're watching the movie but you're also aware of the fact that the movie is a movie. You're aware that this is this actor here, Tom Cruise, playing a character, and you know there

are special effects being used. You don't get caught up in the movie like the rest of us would, where it's like, oh, I hope he, you know, escapes in time before the bomb explodes. You know that it's just a movie. So when you awake, you're awakening from the dream of existence, as Bhante Punnaji would say. So you're aware of the movie being a movie. Maybe you don't fully enjoy the movie then, but hey, it's okay. That's really cool. It's just like in meditation, you're watching a movie. It's the same experience in meditation. Thank you, very helpful. Thank you. Yeah, it may be that you just don't even go to the movie. You just go take a walk in the park, or you stream, you watch Netflix. Okay, Mark. Right, right. But they used to say the practice is the greatest show in town. Yeah, there you go. But what better than that, you know?

Yeah, okay. Uh, I think we can share some merit. And, um, thousand be suffering ones, be suffering free, and the fear struck fearless being, may the grieving shed all grief, and may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired for the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. The beings inhabiting space and earth, devas and nagas of mighty power, share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu.