MN 14 -The Shorter Discourse on the Mass of Suffering

Today we're going to be doing... This is going to be Majjhima Nikaya 14. This is the Culadukkhakkhandha Sutta, the shorter discourse on the mass of suffering. So if you recall, last time we were doing the greater discourse, and in that the Buddha was talking about forms and feelings and sense pleasures, or sensual pleasures, and this kind of follows that, but there are some interesting aspects to it in reference to the jhanas and so on. So we'll see what this is all about.

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Sakyan country at Kapilavatthu in Nigrodha's park. Then Mahanama the Sakyan went to the Blessed One and, after paying homage to him, he sat down at one side and said, "Venerable Sir, I have long understood the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One thus: Greed is an imperfection that defiles the mind. Hate is an imperfection that defiles the mind. Delusion is an imperfection that defiles the mind." I find this statement very interesting, and I'll tell you why. First of all, let's understand who Mahanama is. Mahanama is a cousin of the Buddha. He was Ananda's brother, so Ananda being the attendant to the Buddha.

But Mahanama remained a layperson. So there was, as far as I understand, some point of crisis for the Sakyans and a couple of us too, because once the Buddha's father passed on, there was the question: who is going to be the ruler? What's going to happen? Most everyone had become a monastic in the Buddha's family. And so Mahanama, I think, even the Buddha suggested that Mahanama be the king.

But I don't know if this is historically accurate. I know there are some depictions of this where the Buddha selects or suggests Mahanama to be the ruler, the king. And so here Mahanama is talking about this. He's saying, greed is an imperfection that defiles the mind. Hate is an imperfection that defiles the mind. Delusion is an imperfection that defiles the mind. So the thing I want to point out here is that if anybody has this conception, we should try to pluck it out, which is that the defilements are one thing and the mind is another thing.

Because there is a sutta in which the Buddha talks about the mind being luminous: "Luminous is the mind, monks. Luminous is the mind. But due to adventitious defilements, the mind remains covered in ignorance." So the natural state of the mind is to be luminous. What do we mean by luminous, or luminosity? There is a cognizance. There is an ability to be wholly mindful and aware and at peace.

And it's just that the defilements, the imperfections, cover that up. And so we should not think that the mind is a bad thing, that the mind is the thing we need to let go of or get rid of or anything like that, but that the qualities of the mind are naturally radiant, naturally with wisdom, naturally with intelligence.

And when I say intelligence, I mean the discernment to know what is right and what is wrong. And it gets covered up. Now, when we are infants and kids, what is the one thing we learn to do? We learn to lie. Did you go and do this and so and so? No, I didn't do it. Somebody else did it. Because we know that we'll get in trouble. But we also know if we lie, we get our way.

The interactions, and the way in which the mind, the conceit, grows. The conceit starts to create the sense of: in order for me to feel fine, in order for me to feel secure, I need to work with the world in this way, and that's the only way I will be able to experience it. So these things come into the mind. Obviously, imprints from, let's say, previous lives or previous iterations, and these imprints, these sankharas, being fettered by greed, hatred, and delusion, have the capacity for that proclivity to have craving, to have aversion, to have ignorance, to identify with things, to have views and opinions about things a certain way, to be confused about what is right and wrong.

These are what we call the underlying tendencies, the anusayas. So I think if you look at this statement and really go deep into it, you realize that the mind is actually pure underneath all of it. So the work that we do, so to speak, is to uncover that, to let go of that, so we come to the natural state.

Yet while I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One thus, at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade my mind and remain. I have wondered, Venerable Sir, what state is still unabandoned by me internally, owing to which at times these states of greed, hate, and delusion have invaded my mind and remain. So here Mahanama is talking about the fact that he is a noble one.

And indeed, he is actually a once-returner. And so he says, there's still some craving, sensual craving, some greed, hatred, and delusion still in my mind, and I don't know what the reason for that is. I'm not understanding. Is it right to say that I am a noble one or not? The Buddha replies: "It is still a state unabandoned by you internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade your mind and remain."

"For were that state already abandoned by you internally, you would not be living the home life. You would not be enjoying sensual pleasures." So it's the sensual craving that has not been abandoned. Here we're talking about the fact that he's experiencing these sensual pleasures and the sensual craving attached to them. He's experiencing perhaps the hatred and the delusion, the misguided misperception of seeing things that are impermanent as permanent, seeing things that are suffering as happiness, seeing things that are not self as self. For that reason, he says, it is because that state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the home life and enjoying sensual pleasures.

Now, this is interesting because it helps to validate the understanding that you can attain to stream entry, or to sakadagami, once-returner. It's much easier to do it even if you have not experienced jhanas yet, but in order to deal with the heavy-duty stuff of letting go of sensual craving and aversion, jhanas will help. So one needs to have some experience with jhanas in order to get to the next levels. This is why I often tell people nowadays: it's okay wherever you are, is wherever you are, but if you get to at least stream entry, that is great, because once you do that and you're still working with the jhanas, it will be like your mind is in a state void of sensual craving, void of any kind of hatred, because no unwholesome states abide or arise in the jhanas.

And the more acquainted you are with the jhanas, the less interested you are in sensual pleasures. The less interested you are, the less things that are glitzy and glamorous and glittery and all of these things that attract the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body, become enchanting. You become disenchanted with them. So he says, if you attain to that state, the first jhana, or something more peaceful than that... Unless you do that, you will still be attracted to sensual pleasures, or you could still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a noble disciple has seen clearly, as it actually is with proper wisdom, that sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering and despair, and that the danger in them is still greater, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures.

Definitely. The fact is that when you attain to those jhanas, when you are in them, there is no sensual pleasure. There is only this pleasure that is transcendent and supramundane, namely piti, sukha, upekkha, passaddhi, and so on. In other words, joy and comfort and equanimity and tranquility, and these wonderful states that the mind feels quite at home being in.

And because it's immersed in it, because the mind is collected and unified with its object or around its objects, the mind doesn't get distracted. It doesn't get unhappy when aversion arises, or it doesn't have aversion when displeasure arises or pain arises. It doesn't get caught up in sensual pleasures because it is satisfied.

I recognized that I was no longer attracted to sensual pleasures. So, in other words, if you can see the danger, as the Buddha puts it, the little gratification and the greatness of the danger in them, how they cause more suffering and despair than you anticipated, then you become less interested in them. And because you become less interested in them, you start to let go of them. Seeing this, your mind becomes at ease. Being at ease, your mind is relaxed. Being relaxed, your mind experiences joy. Being joyful, your mind experiences a sense of collectedness. Being collected, your mind is able to enter into the first jhana, the third and the fourth, and so on. What is the gratification in the case of sensual pleasures? The Buddha is repeating what we talked about already in sutta number 13, so if you don't recall that, you can just go back to the recording of that. But basically, in the gist of it, the Buddha is talking about the gratification of sensual pleasures: one experiences delight and this and that, but the danger is that those pleasures are impermanent.

And so one starts to see how these sensual pleasures ultimately are not to be held on to. Now, Mahanama, on one occasion, I was living at Rajagaha on the mountain Vulture Peak. On that occasion, a number of Niganthas living on the black rock on the slopes of Isigili were continuously standing, rejecting seats, and experiencing painful, racking, piercing feelings due to exertion. So the Niganthas are the name for what we now call Jains, or specifically Jain ascetics. So Jainism is a philosophy, a view, where everything that we do is karmic.

And so it doesn't matter what our intention was. So the only way we can actually deal with that is to do better karma through giving, generosity, charity, and so on. And then, to really get out of the wheel of samsara as per Jainism, is to attain to what they call the Arihat, which is similar to Arahant. And the Arihant is someone who, like Mahavira, attained to. And they get into what's known as Siddhaloka, which is outside of all the sensual realms. So it's very similar to the idea of pure abodes. I'm not an expert in Jainism. I'm giving you my understanding based on what I have read and been told by other people within the Jain community.

But what you will see, and I have seen this myself, is when you go to Rajagaha, or what's now, you know, the road to Rajagaha leading to Vulture's Peak, you'll also see Jain monks. And there are two types of Jain monks. They are known as the Digambara and the Shvetambara. The Digambara are known as that because it means sky clad. Digambara means sky clad, and Shvetambara means white clad. So there are monks who wear white robes, or monastics who wear white robes. And there are ascetics who wear nothing. They're completely naked. So on the road to Rajagaha, or Rajgir as it's known in modern day, you will see certain monastics who are wearing white.

And you will see them wearing a little cloth over their face. They don't want to have their breath affect the bacteria in the air. And sometimes you'll see them having like a broom or something behind them, so that they don't affect the insects and animals that they might trample upon. So they're very, very particular. Their whole essence of their dharma is ahimsa paramo dharma, which means non-violence, non-harm is the highest dharma, so they do whatever they can to make sure that they don't harm any beings, seen and unseen. So anyway, you will see them, and the thing is, as it says here, they're very, very ascetic in their practices. And one of the practices that they have is something known as sallekhana, and it's a practice of fasting unto death. So when they feel like their time is up, they will fast.

And the surrounding monastics around them will chant different prayers and things like that towards the end of their life. So they will fast, having no food, no water, until they are basically skin and bones, and they pass on. And I don't know if there are videos of this. Maybe you can look it up if you're interested. But that's their idea. Dark ascetic practices.

Anyway, then when it was evening, I rose from meditation and went to the Niganthas there. I asked them, "Friends, why do you practise continuous standing, rejecting seats, and experience painful, racking, piercing feelings due to exertion?" When this was said, they replied, "Friend, the Nigantha Nataputta is omniscient. So this is their goal, actually, in Jainism, in this particular monastic tradition, which is known as kevala jnana. It means omniscience, that you become all-seeing. And it's a very difficult, obviously, state to attain. In any case, it says that he claims to have complete knowledge and vision, thus: whether I am walking or standing or sleeping or awake, knowledge and vision are continuously and uninterruptedly present to me. He says thus, Niganthas, you have done evil actions in the past.

Exhaust them with the performance of piercing austerities. And when you are here and now restrained in body, speech, and mind, that is doing no evil actions for the future. So by annihilating with asceticism past actions, and by doing no fresh actions, there will be no consequences in the future. With no consequence in the future, there is the destruction of action. With the destruction of action, there is the destruction of suffering. With the destruction of suffering, there is the destruction of feeling. With the destruction of feeling, all suffering will be exhausted. This is the doctrine we approve and accept, and we are satisfied with it." Buddha Dharma, because here we're saying with the destruction of feeling, there's the destruction of suffering.

And that for suffering to be exhausted, you know, even now, there are people within my circle of people that I speak with, who believe that in order to be fully awakened, you need to exhaust all your karma. But the thing is, karma is such that it is fuel for your existence. In order for you to continue this existence, you need karma. So even when you become fully awakened, you still are beholden to past karma. And the only way of dealing with it is not to purify it with ascetic practices, but to see feeling for what it is, which is not me, not mine, not myself, and allow feeling to be experienced as it actually is, without clinging to it with a sense of self.

That's what produces the new karma. And the fully awakened being doesn't do that. they just see feeling as feeling and that feeling is in that sense the exhaustion of that particular old karma but the idea that in order for you to be fully awakened or the idea that in order for you to die you need to exhaust all your karma not necessary right so here the buddha says when this was said i told them but friends do you know that you existed in the past and that it is not the case that you did not exist no friend But friends, do you know that you did evil actions in the past and did not abstain from them?

"Murderers, bloody-handed evildoers in the world, when they are born or reborn among humans, go forth into homelessness as Niganthas." That's a very interesting statement. But here what the Buddha is pointing out is, how do you know how much karma you have left if you take on that doctrine? What level of understanding do you know that you did exist in the past?

How do you know how much karma is yet to be experienced? How much suffering is yet to be exhausted? And the reason the Buddha points that out is because, you know, people in this Buddha Dharma also may have this worry. Oh, I need to deal with my karma in this way. I have to deal with my karma in that way. And no, it's just what you do with what you have in the present moment that determines what will happen in the future. What you have quote unquote control of is this present moment. How do you choose to see this present moment? What do you choose to do with it? Because the luminous mind is most accessible, arguably the only place or time that is most accessible, or accessible at all, you know, is in the present.

Being here now, you can see what experience you're having here. What is happening in relation to the mind, and letting go of unwholesome states that cling to the present moment, that cling to the experience of the here and now. "Friend Gautama, pleasure is not to be gained through pleasure. Pleasure is to be gained through pain."

How absurd does that sound? would gain pleasure, since he abides in greater pleasure than the Venerable Gautama. Ah, interesting statement. Surely the Venerable Niganthas, says the Buddha, have uttered those words rashly and without reflections. Rather, it is I who ought to be asked, who abides in greater pleasure, King Saniya Bimbisara of Magadha or the Venerable Gautama? we uttered those words rashly and without reflection. But let that be. Now we ask the Venerable Gautama, who abides in greater pleasure? King Saniya Bimbisara of Magadha or the Venerable Gautama? Then, friends, I shall ask you a question in return.

Answer it as you like. What do you think, friends? without moving his body or uttering a word, experiencing exclusively sensual, sorry, exclusively pleasure for seven days and nights? No friend. Can King Saniya Bimbisara of Magadha abide without moving his body or uttering a word, experiencing exclusively pleasure for six, five, four, three, two days and nights, for one day and night? No friend.

"But friends, I can abide without moving my body or uttering a word, experiencing exclusively pleasure for one day and night, for two, three, four, five, six, and seven days and nights." So the Buddha is talking about the fact that he can experience exclusively pleasure here, the transcendent pleasure not only of the jhanas, and not only of cessation, but also of nibbana. The highest pleasure is the pleasure of no feeling altogether, as Sariputta had once stated. And he can do that up to seven days and nights.

So what do you think, friends? That being so, who dwells in greater pleasure? King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha or I? That being so, the Venerable Gautama abides in greater pleasure than King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha. So you don't need to experience pain to experience pleasure. If you can transcend lower pleasures and get to that form of pleasure that makes lower pleasures less interesting, then you don't need to do anything else at all. That is the process of reconditioning the mind that we do with the 6R's. We experience greater relief than what is bothering us or what is taking our attention away. The relief and pleasure we find in that, the less bogged down we become by the world around us.

That is what the Blessed One said. Mahanama the Sakyan was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. Anybody have any questions? Yes, Quille. Hi, Justin. Hi. Oh, I'm getting an echo. Oh, that could be. Is this better? Okay, let's see. Yes, thank you. I have spent long periods in jhana. I still have plenty of sensual pleasure, so somehow this mind is confused. According to this, I, well, I guess that's the question. No, because, and also, doesn't he say here that you wouldn't even have a lay life if the mind were aware that you wouldn't have sensual pleasures.

So, yeah, that's a confusing message. I mean, no one can live in jhana, since I guess the Buddha is saying he can. Yeah, it's just a mixed message a little bit there. And I'm not standing around on one leg, you know. I'm not. I don't have that confusion that I should have more pain, but I do have the belief that if I need to be able to make my equanimity larger so that I can not experience the pain. Yeah, so I think what I will do is try to clarify this, the difference between sensual pleasures and sensual craving, because sensual pleasures can be experienced all the time, even when somebody is fully awakened. Okay, but sensual craving is another thing, which is the obsession around obtaining or attaining or possessing sensual pleasures. Right. So, okay, you know? And there's a sutra called the penetrative, Anguttara Nikaya 6.63. It's mentioned by the Buddha that it's the pretty little things.

You know, the sensual pleasures are the pretty little things, but it's just those pretty little things. It's the intentions that are rooted in the desire to own and possess that we have to see and let go of. And so the idea here is as we start to find better pleasures, the sutta by experiencing greater degrees of relief and pleasure in that sense and equanimity, we start to get less interested in wanting to possess those sensual pleasures. They'll come and go as beautiful experiences, as you know, pleasant sensations, but we start to get less caught up in trying to grasp. Okay, I can see that. It's, you know, I don't spend time in jhana so much now.

And so I don't, but I find that the benefits of having those experiences still bless me. But I think also the the wisdom of seeing the experience as much as possible in every given moment and then letting the mind see that point where it's like grasping and letting it go, I would argue is very important. You know, jhanas are great. Jhanas are the playing field. And it's one way to make sure that you see that, you know, sensual pleasures are not all and be all.

The other thing is, when we are in the lay life, we will experience sensual pleasures. But the funny thing is, so do monastics. What I mean by that is they experience pleasant sensations, good food, air conditioning on a hot day, or whatever it might be. And so here the Buddha, I think, is pointing out to the fact that for Mahanama to progress towards the next stage, he has to let go.

of the identification with sensual pleasures. But that's difficult to do, more so in the lay life. And so that's why there's this inclination to become an ascetic or a monastic, because it's less prone for you to be in those spaces where you're distracted by that. Well, there's a stream of Theravada Buddhism when it first came to the West of not teaching jhana, because then you start craving jhana. And I've seen that happen on retreats too, where people just want to go into jhana because they're in pain and they can escape it or, you know, various, it can happen. Yeah. And this is why I like to point out is don't crave for jhana.

Just be in the jhana when it comes. And this is a general instruction for everybody listening, which is, when you're in jhanas, understand it as a stepping stone to keep the mind cultivated and collected. Because jhana without wisdom is being like a mental junkie, you know. But you need the wisdom, which is the aspect of seeing through that jhana for your mind to see that all sensation, all experience, all feeling is ultimately possessed of the three characters. I have not found that success with saying Quille, don't crave that.

It just doesn't. I don't pay any attention to that. I can't just say don't crave that. Yeah, of course. I wanted to tell you, just on another topic, about not eating and drinking. That is a very common way that Buddhists can rationalize not taking their own life. At the, there's this whole movement of, but to stop eating and drinking.

And I've participated as a doula with several people who have done this. And it's very interesting if you start, for me to just go, okay, I'm not going to drink or eat anymore. I'm not going to be very successful with that because it's a primal, especially the drinking. But at a certain point, it's still a practice because you are, you somehow have the wherewithal as you get very close to death to be able to stop doing that.

So it's still happening quite regularly. Yeah, what I would say to that is, I've seen that too. It's very natural that when the body is preparing for death, it just gets like when my father passed away. He stopped eating and drinking before the last few days because the body just didn't want it anymore, and that's a natural process. But in the case of the ascetic practices where you force yourself to do that, that is a painful experience rather than a letting go. Well, that's what I meant by if you try to do it too soon. Maybe if you're so ascetic and used to all that pain, you can do it.

But I've seen people give everything away, lie down and not be able to do it. Yeah. Well, interesting sutta. Thank you. You're very knowledgeable. Many different practices and learned about them. It's rather impressive. Thank you. Let's see what we have in the chat. Tension and tightness in mind and body, essential craving? No, no. Tension and tightness is a manifestation of the mind having either resistance to what's going on or wanting to grasp at something. And so then that is interpreted as craving or aversion. So one of the ways of noticing when the mind is experiencing craving, you know, is to see if there's tightness and tension in the body, because that's the nervous system kind of like agitated and wanting to possess more of that because it feels like it can't live without.

So tightness and tension is a manifestation of it. And when we crave for jhana, they don't come at all. Sitting goes in, feeling pressure and trying to, yeah, exactly. When we are, I need to get into this jhana, chances are you're not going to be able to get it because of the underlying craving that's there. But the idea of getting into jhana is more so about letting go of the world around us, disengaging from that and coming into a space where we can stay with an object. This is why I tell people on retreat, and when they're practicing that, see the jhanas as signposts.

Don't worry about whether you will attain to jhana or not. If your mind is collected, your mind is experiencing some level of joy or there's greater degrees of equanimity, then you're going in the right direction. Ultimately, you want to get your mind collected. come from the word dhyana in Sanskrit, which really just means to place one's attention somewhere.

And so the levels of the dhyanas, or the levels of dhyanas, are the levels of how much attention or for how long attention has been placed somewhere, in this case on an object. And then the surrounding components of piti and sukha and upekkha and pasadi and so on and so forth, they come out naturally as a result of that collectedness. And they feed into each other until the collectedness becomes deeper in the fourth genre. Anyone else?

Hey, Delson. Yes. You know, this idea that people are not seeing craving for what it is. I was out walking one day and my mind was in a very nice state. And then I thought of somewhere, some vacation to take. And I noticed, yeah, that was a pleasant feeling that arose. But my mind going, ah, I want that. Craving itself is the pain. It's that tension and tightness. We want to give it up. That is pain. It's not, we don't, trying to not have craving is craving. It's, I mean, guys, it's also called anger and aversion and pushing it away. I want, I don't want and blah, blah. And this is how your mind is going like this.

But so that's one thing. You have to think about tanha is a fire. You don't want that fire. The other thing is, this reminds me of the Nigantha. Maybe this is where Goenka, I read his book, The Light of Asia, and he says, well, we're going to have to just get rid of all this karma and we're going to let it go and we're going to let it go. And I thought, oh, that's a Hindu view. He's mixing up Buddhism and Hinduism.

And people keep thinking, oh, no, Goenka's absolutely a Buddhist. He has a lot of Buddhist views, but underlying that, giving up all of the bad karma, the pain, and reaching the state of equanimity, where now nothing bothers you, as you said, and as you said, how do you know how much you did? It's endless. So that's one thing about Goenka, which I think, would you agree that that's a Nigantha view that's kind of invaded that?

Yeah. Let me address the first part because that was interesting what you mentioned. Because, let's say we do have an experience of, hey, this would be nice to have this vacation. That's just a pleasant sensation. And it's okay to have those thoughts. Or, hey, it might be nice to go to my favorite restaurant. Today, is that craving or is that just a pleasant thought that appears? Now, as you rightly said, the desire to have that, to possess that under every circumstance, the tightness and tension that comes is the thing that we want to look for as coming up and letting go. But if it's just a passing sensation, hey, this is wonderful, maybe we should do more of this, that's not a big deal, that's fine, that's totally fine. So the obsession around it, the sun, as you said, the fire, what does it actually mean? Thirst.

So understand, when you're thirsty, how do you feel? When you're hungry or hangry, how do you feel? That's right. It's like there's this biological drive, this primal drive, like I need this to satisfy me. So that's one. The second is: I think this invasiveness of this view is very insidious and actually very unhelpful, at the very least, because there are a lot of people who get misguided by this idea. Like I was saying, I have some people who I know who have this idea that in order for them to be experiencing awakening, or in order for them to be fully awakened, they have to exhaust all their karma.

That, and this is why I say, even when you talk about the principles of karma from the suttas, don't worry about whether you understand it or not. The only thing to understand is: can you do something about what's happening right here, right now? Because that is the unfolding of karma. In order for us to try to figure out, oh, this karma happened because of lifetime 642, about that, what can you do about it right here, right now? So trying to exhaust your karma is a Nigantha view, and it's invaded even other aspects of Eastern traditions, within India primarily. But the Buddha, that's why the Buddha even said in the Majjhima Sivaka Sutta that it's not just karma. Are you going to, as he kind of says, are you going to attribute an accident to karma? Are you going to attribute your imbalances in the body to karma?

You could, but that's like being pierced by an arrow and then, instead of tending to the wound, looking at the arrow and saying, what kind of arrowhead was this? Who shot the arrow? What was the make of this arrow? Or are you going to tend to the wound? So really, to simplify the understanding of karma, forget about trying to exhaust it. Forget about trying to understand where it came from. Can you deal with it as it actually arises, by seeing the craving that comes up or the aversion to it that comes up, and letting it go? Can you disidentify, disengage, and allow it to do what it's doing and dissipate, and then no longer have to deal with it again, or maybe deal with it to a lesser extent, until there's the remainderless fading away. Power share this merit of ours, may they long protect the Buddha's dispensation. Thank you everyone, I'll see you around, take care. Thank you, thank you so much, thank you so much.